Dear Forum:
I am newly admitted to the forum, very thankful it is here. I have been reading it for a while, and appreciate being let in to participate.

I have been shooting 8x10 ambrotypes outside with dark box since May. I use the Quick Clear collodion mixed with Cad Bro and Ammon Iodide as Mark O.'s formula for positives suggests. I also use his formula for developer, and fix with SodThio. Along with mixing fresh developer and fix the day before, I mix 200ml fresh collodion a day before every shoot, adding the fresh collodion to any I have left from the previous shoot (usually about 150ml). (But the problem I mention below has occurred when I am using completely freshly mixed collodion or a mix of slightly older and fresh.)

I clean glass with soap+water, rinse with distilled, hit it with Windex (sometimes) and polish the glass variously with rottenstone/distilled/alcohol or no-streak (formerly glass wax). I put a rim of albumen mixed with distilled around the edge of the plates.

My bath(s) are faithfully maintained at 1.07 SG and pH in the range of 3-4, and I use Lund's travel tanks with capacity of about 1.3L.

When I pour the collodion, I wait until it sets before sliding it into the bath for 3.75 minutes.

After a day of shooting in hot or moderate temps (80 - 60 degrees) my usual 10 plates, my silver bath has a suspension of very fine dark grit in it, which coffee filters do not remove. If I don't sun it and let the grit settle out after each shoot, the next time I use the bath I get a lot of veiling and at times it begins to fog.

If I add 50% volume of distilled to the bath, it clouds up, suggesting the presence of silver iodide (I can only guess after doing a lot of research into this) after which I sun it, let the cloudy precipitate settle to the bottom and then simmer it on a hot plate to evaporate it back to the original volume. This works well - the bath is clear and works nicely when I go out to shoot again. But then suspended grit reappears after one session and I am back to the same place I was before.

My questions:
Is it normal to have to have this fine grit in the bath? I assume it is not.

I would love to be able to leave the bath alone, except for filtering and replenishing it with silver, and not have to do so much sunning, etc., so frequently.

Is the source of the problem the collodion formula? Do other people using the Quick Clear collodion formula have this problem, too?

Sorry - a lot here to digest, but any thoughts are welcome.
Mike

[dailypost.bowdoin.edu]

If you got some filter paper that is finer than the coffee filters, I bet it'd filter out...

[wardsci.com]

Thanks for the suggestion and link. I just ordered some.

Are you sure you are getting all of the rottenstone off?

I have never had any luck with Rottenstone. I use Calcium Carbonate otherwise know as whiting. I wash my plates in the dishwasher before using whiting on them. Wet a rag and dip in the whiting. Rub onto the plate and you have a nice paste. I RUB the HECK out of the plate to get it all off. Especially the edges.

I would think that waiting 3.75 minutes to put your plate into the bath is way too long. I go maybe 30 seconds. Depends on the climate. When the corner opposite the pour off corner starts to set Ill go almost vertical with the plate, gently rocking constantly from the time it covers. If the pour off corner leaves a finger print it should be ready to go into the bath.

Anyone else waiting that long?

Ive used that quick clear collodion and it it good but prefer to use Cadmium Bromide/Potassium Iodide for negs and positives since I almost always do both.

Sounds like you know enough not to use containers, stirrers, dippers, etc for more than one thing but Ill ask this anyway. You are not contaminating your bath with anything that may have Sodium Thiosulfate on it are you? I know that could cause this problem.One time I poured my silver bath into the wrong container. What a mess. Tiny black specks floating around like you mention.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2011 08:00PM by RobertSzabo.

I dont know what that tank is but is it shielded from the light when not in use? Obviously you dont want the plate in the bath in open light but is the bath always in the open light while you are working the process? or always in safelight conditions?

Bob is right, dont wait that long. look for a skin to form, and the bottom drop not come off as a liquid on your fingertip. dont rush it in..but no need to wait all that time.

Never mix distilled water into a working silver bath. It clouds it up. Others will no doubt disagree, but thats been my experience.

Avoid Windex and Wetplate. They have no place within striking distance of each other. Windex is an akaline, which is exactly the thing you want to avoid ever getting into your silver bath.

Just a question? but how strong are you making up your bath. Listen to the 19th century shooters, who done positives, and you get 2 grams to the ounce, the 21st century shooters seem to like 3 grams to the ounce. In my experience, Ive found 2 grams to the ounce to serve very well and not contribute to fog.

wet plate is all about technique and harmony.

Thanks so much for the posts, Joboo, Ray and Robert. I should have been clearer about time IN bath instead of BEFORE. I pour and wait about 15-30 sec for collodion to set, and then sensitize in the bath for 3.75 minutes.

It could be the rottenstone - I agree - but what is strange is that the bath is initially clear when I inspect it upon return from shooting, but the next morning it has the suspended materials. And if I go on to use it again, I get veiling immediately. This makes me suspect some influence of a contaminant possibly in addition to or in combination with the rottenstone.

As far as whiting goes, can you suggest a good source? I have called around here for it (mid-coast Maine) but have not had luck finding it, and expect to go online soon, but want to get the right stuff.

I use windex and allow it off gas overnight - and if I can get away with the Streak-Free I would prefer because it is so nice to use - but both Windex and Streak_free are ammonium based, so I am somewhat wary, as I have noticed some creeping up on pH over time.

I am very careful not to use containers for silver with anything else - all but funnel are glass, too, but, again all used just for silver.

I add distilled to bath just as a maintenance trick - when all else fails - it does cloud it up, but then the cloudy precipitate settles out when sunned, and once filtered and clear, I evaporate it down with heat - and the bath seems in great shape in terms of SG and pH.

So for now, I will try the dishwasher/whiting combo. I assume, Robert, that when you say you wet the rag, you are using only distilled?

I am off to shoot this morning - a bit nervous because temps here will only get to 50 degrees and we are expecting snow (ouch) tomorrow.

All the best,
Mike
example of ambrotype on The Daily Post

I used tap water but sure, distilled is best.

Be sure to wipe the edges well on the plates. Do it several times. I got Whiting at a hardware store. True Value I think.

I would like Ray said, stay away from the Windex all together.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

You can get whiting from Sherwin-Williams Paint stores as well... It's located in the paint department in most hardware stores (if they have it).

I've been experimenting with cleaning glass with "diatomaceous earth" ( [en.wikipedia.org] ), which I found listed on an old MSDS sheet for the original glasswax. Diatomaceous earth is the silica remains of ancient algae from what I've read...good for polishing chrome. You can buy it at health food stores, and mix it with grain alcohol and water to make a paste. Seems to work great so far, although I still prefer to scrum the plates with liquid dish soap and water, and then rinse them really well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2011 11:03AM by J0B00.

Ive used rottenstone for years, and never noticed any issues with it. make sure when you 'grind' or roughen the edges of your plate, not too rough. Thats where any residues can hide, not on the surface of the glass.

baths are funny things its where you can do all kinds of wrong stuff to fix a problem...and never get close to the problem itself.

When I dont have a dishwasher handy I do the same thing Andy with the dish soap.

you have mentioned streak-free a couple of times....dont use it. It leaves a residue on the glass, much like windex.

I think if you simplify things down a bit you will be much better off, and might be able to eliminate the issue a bit quicker.

You are currently using the following:
"I clean glass with soap+water, rinse with distilled, hit it with Windex (sometimes) and polish the glass variously with rottenstone/distilled/alcohol or no-streak (formerly glass wax). "

I think, for the most part, that is overkill.

Use soap and water (tap is fine) to scrup/wash the glass. Dry thoroughly...
Use whiting....scrubbing thoroughly..to clean, and the wipe off the powder.

Thats it.

If the plate is clean, and you are properly mixing the chems....subbing the plate is probably not needed either.


As for the silver....I got the fine black specks before...silver bath was "overly silver"...too much silver in it....

You can tinker with it....or just make a new batch...much easier.

Hope you get to the bottom of your issues.

Chris

C. Christopher Morgan
~Wet-Plate Collodion Artist~
North Carolina

wetplates.blogspot.com

You guys are great. Thanks. Just got back from shooting and all seemed to go well, despite (or maybe because of?) the cold. I will post a few tomorrow once they dry and I can scan them.

I will look for the whiting - there is a Sherwin Williams down the street and a few hardware stores to scour.

Interesting to hear that the bath could be overly silver. Though I mix faithfully to a 9% solution and monitor SG to keep it right at 1.07 (which makes me wonder about the accuracy of my hydrometer). Next time I mix a new bath I will do what JC says - measure the SG right then and use whatever the hydrometer says as my mark.

I do hit the edges of the glass with a whetstone, so I hear you about the way that the rottenstone or whiting can hide in those pits. And I will try a round without the albumen to see how it goes.

But what is weird is that with the Streak-Free I never get a residue (yet with Rottenstone I have). Too bad you all seem to think it a bad idea - so far I have loved it, but of course I wonder if it is part of my bath troubles.

Like I said earlier, onto finding the whiting and trying it, though it, like Windex and Streak-Free is alkaline...

Riverside Cemetery, Lewiston, from the Androscoggin River Series, 21 Oct 2011

I forgot one thing. Joboo, you mentioned diatomaceous earth, which intrigues me - to understand you better - do you wash with soap and water before or after the DE treatment, or both before and after?

Thanks,
Mike

Those are beautiful plates Mike! Nothing wrong with your pouring technique that for sure!

as promised - a diptych from yesterday.

And no luck yet finding whiting - not at Sherwin Williams or the best hardware store around here. I will keep looking...

Brunswick Canoe Portage, from the Androscoggin River series, 26 Oct 2011

I never clean my glass more than once. So, I either clean a bunch of plates ahead of time in my sink, or I ruin a plate in the field and wipe it, so it needs to be cleaned again with the Diatomaceous earth before I re-shoot with that piece of glass.

If your glass is clean, its clean... I don't know what cleaning it again will achieve other than adding another step and taking up extra time.

When I clean my glass in the sink, I fill one side with warm water and add a few tablespoons of Palmolive dish soap. I let the glass soak for 5-10 minutes (usually because I'm watching something on TV and get distracted), then I scrub each plate with a blue 3M "No-Scratch" scrub pad (not the green ones...they scratch the glass).... I rinse the plate well under running water followed by a dunk in distilled water to prevent water spots, then I put it on my plate rack to dry. Once dry, I stack the plates in batches of 12 with slips of paper in between them, and wrap each stack in plastic wrap (saran wrap) to keep the dust out.

As for the diatomaceous earth stuff, I just add alcohol to the dry powder until its kinda like an oatmeal thickness, then thin it out with distilled water... Keep it in a jar or bottle or whatever. Use it like glass wax.

Andy

While I'm at it:

Bob, I'm going to bring you a bit of my "diatomaceous earth" glasswax replacement on Saturday for you to try out if ya don't mind... Once you see the consistency of this stuff, the only thing you'll miss is the pink color...

Thanks JOBOO for the info and advice.
M

Look for Whiting in hardware or paint stores. Chances are most people working there wont know what it is.