Hi All,

Every time I make wet-plate on clean glass I see a little fog on plate.
This fog appears when a plate dried.

I've made tests:
1. Pour collodion -> sensitize plate -> develope -> wash -> fix -> wash
2. Pour collodion -> wash
3. Pour collodion
In all of thee plate I've seen fog.
So I thought that this is nether my silver bath nor water makes fog.

When I decided to pour original (not salted) collodion. And its perfect clean.
I'm using standard CdBr PtI Formula for collodion.

What do you think? How can I remove fog from collodion?

[attachment 328 2007-04-08_230015_IMGP4766-01.jpg]

Forgot to say abot picture:
The left plate with plain collodion poured and dried. The right plate with salted collodion poured and dried.

Just a thought, but you might try mixing a different developer. I had problems with this and it was my developer.

Developer do not make this fog.
Right plate on photograph is the plate without sesitizing developing and fixing.
I've only pour collodion over the glass. That is all.

Can you post a photo of your salted collodion in the bottle? If it hasn't cleared, you might get this kind of fog on your plate.

I read an old post where Ray M. had said that collodion that is too old will fog on clear glass

This is the post, Ray, I hope it is OK for me to do this ... Ray's quote "the collodion becoming thin and runny is a product of the increased acidity breaking down the cell walls of the pyroxzyline. When it is like this, it dries with a haze even on clear glass. That looks like fog in the picture (what there is of it)
ray morganweck"

Ty G

Yes, collodion is clean. It has yellow color.
It has aged for about two months.

[attachment 329 IMGP4768-01.jpg]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2007 03:00PM by unrealalex.

Im not sure I know why your asking this? What is the difference what it looks like if it hasnt been processed? Does it look this way if you sensitize, develop and then fix it without making an exposure?

To be honest, Ive never compared an unprocessed plate poured with salted collodion to collodion to a plate poured with unsalted collodion.

Whats the purpose for this comparisn? Does is come out clear when processed??

What are you using to clean your glass??

Robert, I want to make deepst black in my Ambrotype plate. Every time I make plate I see a little fog. First I think that this is my developer or my silver bath. But then I thought to make some tests before change silver nirate and developer.

I think that the plate sensitized, developed and fixed without making an exposure should be perfect transparent.

> Whats the purpose for this comparisn? Does is come out clear when processed?
I want to understand why this fog happens and can I get perfect plack in my ambrotype.

Andrew, to clean glass plates I use mix 1 part whiting + 1 part alcohol + 1 part water.

Ty G, what does it mean "old collodion"? How old? Salted or plain collodion?

With a problem like this we need to start at the beginning of the book. Here are some questions: Have you EVER had clear pictures with this exact chemistry before, or is this your first attempt. What is the makeup"assay" of your ether and plain collodion? How much water do you use to dissolve the iodide and bromide, and is it distilled? Do you add any iodine or old collodion to this mixture when you first make it? Does this collodion, when tacky on the plate, rub off very easily, almost like a slime, or is it a tough plastic like film which resist abrasion? In your opinion, how long do you think the plain collodion was on a shelf somewhere before you bought it, or is it dated?

You are exactly right in your concept of the plate being crystal clear in the dark blacks. But, what you have I wouldnt consider "fog" in the sense we often refer to it.

Old dead collodion is usually deep red and has a dark paint like smell, instead of the bright bouncy ether tone. When it dries, it dries cloudy orange, darker than the liquid. Yours dried white, which leads me to think it is something with the way the iodide and bromides and water used in their dissolving is reacting and bringing them out of suspension. Just a wild guess but it is an odd problem.

Try washing the "plain" collodionized plate with water before you dry it.
The slight "fog" that you see could be the salts coming out of solution when all the solvent evaporates.
Do you get this same "fog" if you pour unsalted collodion on the plate?

Now this is interesting. The strip of glass that I poured the old collodion onto, which was orange while drying, has dried overnight to a nearly translucent coating of near white. Hmmmm

Ray, I try to answer all of your questions:

> Have you EVER had clear pictures with this exact chemistry before, or is this your first attempt?
This is my second batch of collodion with the same chemistry and I've never got clean glass in deep shadow areas of photographs.

> What is the makeup "assay" of your ether and plain collodion?
I bought collodion in chemical store. This is 4% mix of nitrocellulose in solution af ether and alcohol in ratio 7:1. This is perfect clear liquid. Not such fluid like water. It is almost colorless.

> How much water do you use to dissolve the iodide and bromide, and is it distilled?
Summary I use 10ml of water to dissolve 3g of cadmium bromide and 4g of potassium iodide. The result collodion mix also contains 250ml plain collodion + 160ml ether+ 160ml alcohol. My water is distilled (I hope), I've bought it in car store - this is water for accumulator in cars.

> Do you add any iodine or old collodion to this mixture when you first make it?
No I did not. I've only added 3g of Potassium iodide at the stage of mixing collodion.

> Does this collodion, when tacky on the plate, rub off very easily, almost like a slime, or is it a tough plastic like film which resist abrasion?
Just after pouring it is like a film.

> In your opinion, how long do you think the plain collodion was on a shelf somewhere before you bought it, or is it dated?
It's dated: 15 February 2006 year. On the label I read that I can store this collodion for three years.

------

Now I'm thinking that this is may be alcohol or KI or water. I remember that I've seen such "fog" when doing my first attempts in wet-plate. In first and second time I've used another formula without ether and with KBr instead of CdBr.
So this fog may appears because I have bad water or alcohol or may be KI.

John Hurlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Try washing the "plain" collodionized plate with
> water before you dry it.
Already done with the same results

> The slight "fog" that you see could be the salts
> coming out of solution when all the solvent
> evaporates.
> Do you get this same "fog" if you pour unsalted
> collodion on the plate?
No. On the first image (on the top of this topic) you may see left plate. This is the plate with unsalted collodion. It is almost perfectly clear and transparent.

Ray Morgenweck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now this is interesting. The strip of glass that
> I poured the old collodion onto, which was orange
> while drying, has dried overnight to a nearly
> translucent coating of near white. Hmmmm


Ray, as far as I understand you have the same results with your collodion?

Oh No. My working collodions always seem, well, to "work". That experiment was with long abandoned and dead bottles of it that lurk on the back of my shelf.

I've been following this. I use to do experiments sponsored by universities for local Junior High schools. One was to test for acids and base in the local water supply. many of you probably know the experiments with phyenolphalin (sp) where it will turn one color or another when you have either an acidic or basic water supply. The twist came when I would hadd just a small drop of silver nitrate to the water. It would turn very milky white. What brings this ups is the fact that when I did this experiment in Park City Utah, the water immediately turned milky without adding the silver nitrate. There are some municipal water supplies that have large amopunts of natural silver in them. Could this be the problem you are seeing? Could it be that the water from that colloidon batch had been contaminated with a silver infused water supply? It is total speculation for what ever it is worth.

I'm guessing that he used distilled water which shouldn't have anything in it at all...Is this true alex?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2007 04:05PM by J0B00.

Dear Friends, It may be that you are making too much work for yourselves. That is, you are trying too hard. Now think of this. Collodion is dissolved pyroxylin. Dry some of it full strength from the manufacturer's container and it will produce a perfectly clear film, looking much like cellophane.If the collodion has not been salted, but not sensitized, it should dry perfectly clear, whether new pale yellow, or old and deep red. The only thing that can cause any cloudiness is the seperation of the pyroxylin and reversion to its original white, cottony material.
Recently I was trying to refinish a 1920s camera stand. Every time I applied varnish remover I got a white look which I had never before seen when refinishing wood with old varnish. Then it suddenly hit me. The 1920s was a big period for DUCO products. DUCO paints and varnishes by the Dupont Co.was essentially a pyroxylin product. What I was seeing was the seperation of the pyroxylin from the ancient varnish, just like pyroxylin from collodion if you add too much water in order to dissolve some salts.
So, think about this. For one reason or another, have you added anything to the collodion that might cause the pyroxylin component to seperate as it dries?
Sincerely yours,
George Berkhofer

Aggie, Andrew absolutely right. I use distilled water. But I think I have to test it now

George, may be I bought bad alcohol or not really distilled water. But what amount of water (distilled) is possible in collodion mix?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2007 12:16AM by unrealalex.

It seems that the problem had been solved. No more fog.
The reason is a greater amount of water.
Also I have to test my distilled water. May be this water not such perfect as should be.

I've made new collodion mix without ether (summer coming soon) and water.
[www.cwreenactors.com]

This mix works because I use Cadmium Bromide Tetrahydrate instead of anhydrous.

I've poured this collodion onto the plate and it dried perfectly clear.

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR HELP AND ATTENTION!

Congratulations. Now keep your exposures short and you'll get those blacks. fix in cyanide also if you can.

Water is needed in wet plate to actually provide invisible pinholes all through the collodion film which lets the developer actually have more access to the silver halides in AND on the surface of the plate. If your alcohol is TOO pure, with no water then perhaps the small amount of water used to normally dissolve the iodide and bromide was not enough to 'open' the collodion.

Heres how to test to see if your "distilled water" is pure. Just take a little of it in a drop a few grains of silver nitrate in it. If it clouds the water, the water is not pure.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2007 06:59PM by Ray Morgenweck.

Thank you, Ray.

Unfortunatly I can not use cyanide as fixer. To buy some chemicals, cyanide for example, in our country is very difficult and some time impossible task. I forgot to say that I live in Saint-Petersburg, Russia.

I will try my collodion that I've made with new formula very soon. I use 93% alcohol. So I think that there will be enough water from Cadmium Bromide Tetrahydrate crystals and alcohol.

Ok, I will do this tets with my water. BTW, where do you usually get distilled water? Or may be you make it by yourself?

You can make it yourself if you have an evaopration set up. See if there is some old scientific equipment place near you that sells the stuff. I know in the USA we can get small portable table top units but they are rather expensive. The used scientific aperatus is cheaper and much better.

BTW my sister in law is from St. Petersburg. I also have a new friend who got married and moved here who is also from St. Petersburg. I plan to visit there in a couple of years.

If you have a store close by that sells salt water aquarium equipment, you can get distilled water there and even buy equipment to make distilled and deionized water by reverse osmosis filteration. My brother does this on a regular basis for his 75 gallon aquarium and when I first started doing wet-plate I would just go over to his house and grab a gallon of water when I needed.

Over here in the states, I just go to the local grocery store and buy a gallon of it on the soft drink isle...its usually located next to the bottled water.

Thank you for information about water. I looked throgh some sites and I think I can make distille by myself.

Aggie, it great. Send a email when you will visit our city please.