Supreme Court Lets Ban on Confederate Flag Stand

[Pvt Schnapps]

Originally Posted by RebelBugler

Candidly, your dime store psychological assessment that it is not about them reflects only your perception of individuals of whom you have no knowledge. As such , your supposed insight is not only meaningless but presumptuous. While on the subject, there is a certain arrogance and smugness reflected in your condescending remarks that, in my view, is inappropriate for intellectual discussions. However, if engaging in personal attacks satisfies some deeply rooted psychological need, then by all means continue.

As to your living in Virginia and not being aware of attempts to demonize Confederate leaders, you need to pay more attention. As a simple illustration, why is there no longer a Central Virginia Robert E. Lee Council of the Boy Scouts of America?
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/15/us/national-briefing-south-virginia-boy-scouts-drop-robert-e-lee.html

While on the subject, have you actually read "Stonewall Jackson -- the Black Man's Friend" and found false or inaccurate information? Have you ever been to Roanoke and visited Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church to see the stained glass window dedicated to Jackson by the Black pastor who honors Jackson for his many contributions?
http://richmondthenandnow.com/Newspaper-Articles/Stonewall.html

For the record, I do not read neo-Confederate comic books but am curious as to whether you are still reading the Lincoln comics?

I think you've just demonstrated my point. Removing Robert E. Lee's name from the uniforms of Richmond area scouts isn't "demonization." It may just be another example of the "South" moving on beyond the "Confederacy." As you know, the demographics of the city have changed a lot in the last century and a half, as demonstrated by the election of Wilder and the raising of Arthur Ashe's statue.

Really, if you don't stop seeing other people's celebration of their heroes and cultures as attacks on your own, you will continue to be very unhappy about things that you don't need to be unhappy about, and can do nothing at all to stop.

The silly part about "Stonewall Jackson -- the Black Man's Friend" is the obvious: he may have broken the law by teaching a few people to read (which would be interesting to see an original source for -- it has the air of the apocryphal about it), but he did nothing, and said nothing, about that law. To this day he remains best known for the more dramatic and effective actions he took to uphold the society that kept those people in bondage. Taking all of his actions together, praising him for a reading lesson seems a bit like praising Eichmann for letting the inmates form an orchestra.

It reminds me of the stories of Mary Lee getting into trouble for violating Virginia's Jim Crow laws by refusing to send her maid to the back of the bus. It wasn't that she thought her maid was equal -- she just couldn't see the sense of a law that would separate a lady from her servant.

[tompritchett]

To this day he remains best known for the more dramatic and effective actions he took to uphold the society that kept those people in bondage. Taking all of his actions together, praising him for a reading lesson seems a bit like praising Eichmann for letting the inmates form an orchestra.

I am sure that there are many who would argue that Jackson's actions were probably more about defending his home state of Virginia from invading Northern Armies than wishing to keep any race in bondage. Yes, by defending Virginia he was defending a Confederacy initially formed to perpetuate the institution of slavery, but the consequences of his actions may not been his primary motivation for his actions. As far as the Eichmann analogy, I think you have definitely crossed the line with that one. A better analogy might have been when the U.S. condemed Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia to overthrow the reign of terror of the Khmer Rouge. We were denouncing the invasion of one country by another (one who happened to be a Communist nation with close ties with the Soviet Union) but, as a consequence, we were indirectly thereby supporting the Khmer Rouge - a regime that probably comes closest the Nazis in terms of modern evil. Regardless of what our government's motivations were in opposing Vietnam's invasion, I can feel fairly confident it was not because we supported the genecide that Pol Pot was carrying out on his own people. But when you mistake consequences with actual motivations, that would indeed be the logical conclusion regarding our reasons for opposing the invasion.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Originally Posted by tompritchett

I am sure that there are many who would argue that Jackson's actions were probably more about defending his home state of Virginia from invading Northern Armies than wishing to keep any race in bondage. Yes, by defending Virginia he was defending a Confederacy initially formed to perpetuate the institution of slavery, but the consequences of his actions may not been his primary motivation for his actions. As far as the Eichmann analogy, I think you have definitely crossed the line with that one. A better analogy might have been when the U.S. condemed Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia to overthrow the reign of terror of the Khmer Rouge. We were denouncing the invasion of one country by another (one who happened to be a Communist nation with close ties with the Soviet Union) but, as a consequence, we were indirectly thereby supporting the Khmer Rouge - a regime that probably comes closest the Nazis in terms of modern evil. Regardless of what our government's motivations were in opposing Vietnam's invasion, I can feel fairly confident it was not because we supported the genecide that Pol Pot was carrying out on his own people. But when you mistake consequences with actual motivations, that would indeed be the logical conclusion regarding our reasons for opposing the invasion.

I cop to a provocative statement, but whether we consider it over the line depends on lot on individual perspective. Where I live there are a large number of folks who would have no problem comparing slavery with the holocaust. It's a much smaller number who would associate the United States with the Cambodian holocaust, but more than zero and, in any case, no one considers our support of the Kmer Rouge as a Cause worth honoring. And certainly we denounced the killing fields when we found out about them -- I don't know that Jackson ever denounced slavery.

Speaking of Jackson, I'm now trying to figure out what he did believe. VMI has many of his letters at http://www.vmi.edu/archives.aspx?id=4931, but the wartime ones don't seem to say anything about his motivations. I've seen sites that address his founding of a Sunday school for blacks in the fall of 1855, but when I look in his correspondence of that period I find things like this, from October 6 to his sister, which reads in part:

"Cousin Wm. has advised him to go elsewhere and he is going to look at the lands of Johnson Country. He expresses himself pleased with the country and I hope that he may do well. I do not want him to go into a free state if it can be avoided for he would probably become an abolitionist and then in the event of trouble between the N & S he would stand on one side and we on the opposite."

This doesn't sound like someone who was basically against slavery and only took up arms to defend his home state. This sounds like someone who had been ready to fight for the institution years before war actually broke out.

[PVTStalls]

Originally Posted by Craig L Barry

If you wore the Bonnie Blue flag, nobody would know what it was or what it meant, such is the state of ignorance of American History in the public schools.

I agree with you sir... my girl friend had a bonnie blue flag license plate on her car.... i choose to have the stars and bars to represent the army of northern va on mine.. people on many occassions have called me a racists and told her that "they were a dallas cowboys fan too". Thus proving the ignorance in America today.

[Blockade Runner]

Originally Posted by RebelBugler

Candidly, your dime store psychological assessment that it is not about them reflects only your perception of individuals of whom you have no knowledge. As such , your supposed insight is not only meaningless but presumptuous. While on the subject, there is a certain arrogance and smugness reflected in your condescending remarks that, in my view, is inappropriate for intellectual discussions. However, if engaging in personal attacks satisfies some deeply rooted psychological need, then by all means continue.

As to your living in Virginia and not being aware of attempts to demonize Confederate leaders, you need to pay more attention. As a simple illustration, why is there no longer a Central Virginia Robert E. Lee Council of the Boy Scouts of America?
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/15/us/national-briefing-south-virginia-boy-scouts-drop-robert-e-lee.html

While on the subject, have you actually read "Stonewall Jackson -- the Black Man's Friend" and found false or inaccurate information? Have you ever been to Roanoke and visited Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church to see the stained glass window dedicated to Jackson by the Black pastor who honors Jackson for his many contributions?
http://richmondthenandnow.com/Newspaper-Articles/Stonewall.html

For the record, I do not read neo-Confederate comic books but am curious as to whether you are still reading the Lincoln comics?

Rebel Bugler...don't you understand???.. Legitimate, logical arguements/responses need not apply concerning some folks on this forum. There's ALWAYS a crass rebuttal. Even if you assert something as innocuous as the sky is blue and the grass is green, some individuals, (you know who you are), will say the sky is grey and the grass is beige. I've found that it's generally best to leave those folks to their own misguided, delusional perspectives

[bob 125th nysvi]

burned at the stake but a couple of points here:

1) Under aged (sub-18 ) do not have "rights" in the sense an adult citizen has rights. A citizen has rights because they also have an obligation. Under aged residents of the US don't have obligations the way an adult citizen has. The "rights" (all too frequently mis-identified as such) they have are actually obligations for the adults in this country to observe. For example a minor does not have the 'right' to co-habitate with another person without guardian consent. A minor does not have a "right" to not be abused but society and adults have an obligation to see that minors are not abused.

2) It is a long standing concept that the right of freedom of speech is not unrestricted. The famous example being you can not yell fire in a crowded theater.

3) The right of a school administration to set 'reasonable' rules for the conduct of students has been long established an enshrined in law.

4) The Supreme Court is not obligated to hear any case it does not think is worthy of its attention. Even the lowest court in the land has the right to try or not try a case based on the pre-trial motions and filings.

As much as I see general bans of this nature as being preemptive and unfair, I can also see the school administration's point of view on this. If it allows a CSA Flag, why not a Nazi, Soviet or Japanese WWII Flag? Some may argue that the CSA is an American flag but it actually isn't. It was a flag raised by rebellious individuals in opposition to the duly elected government.

We also don't know if the school has had some incident where a skinhead/neo-nazi teen was smashing another student's head against a locker because he was a 'n*##$&', not-white, didn't speak English well or heck was Roman Catholic, while wearing the flag.

There is a simple solution for the voters of the district. If they believe the policy is wrong then elect a new school board that agrees with them and will institute new rules.

As a private citizen on private property the court (nor your local government) can not do anything to stop you from flying the flag. And courts have ruled that all over the country.

But when your on public property, then your local institution is well with in it's legal rights to set the rules.

[sbl]

Good points and true. Liberty is great and so is getting along in a peaceful society. We police our own kids so the school doesn't have too but all kids aren't that "lucky."

Twenty five years ago the Unification Church moved to Gloucester and started their own fishing business. "Shoot a Moonie!" T-shirts appeared with a logo of the Gloucester Fisherman with an Asian "happy face" over his butt and were worn by Kids and some of the local adult "brain trust." There were shots at the group residence reported.

[bob 125th nysvi]

the word liberal and my name in the same sentence to anyone who knew me they'd think you were nuts. The only thing I'm liberal about is sex.

No I just hate the way that terms have been misused over the years and meaning have become blurred because we want them to or we're too lazy to fight the corruption.

I once heard a line in a Sci-Fi series that clearly states the problem.: "If you can not say what you mean how can you mean what you say?"

[sbl]

Originally Posted by bob 125th nysvi

the word liberal and my name in the same sentence to anyone who knew me they'd think you were nuts. The only thing I'm liberal about is sex......."

That and freedom to smoke dope would make you a Libertarian.

[MDRebCAv]

Originally Posted by PVTStalls

I agree with you sir... my girl friend had a bonnie blue flag license plate on her car.... i choose to have the stars and bars to represent the army of northern va on mine.. people on many occassions have called me a racists and told her that "they were a dallas cowboys fan too". Thus proving the ignorance in America today.

I have many reenacting friends in all reenactor catagories and colors...one of them is a Confedaerate reenactor in PA. He needed some medical care so he drove down here to Baltimore to go to Johns Hopkins and after his appointment he decided to visit the Naval Academy in Annapolis (this was in fact prior to 9-11). He pulled up to the guard and the Marine snapped to attention and waved him through. He wondered why he got a salute but pulled on through the gate.

After he spent some time there he returned to his car and noticed what had happend: his front license plate was the Bonny Blue Flag!