2 band guns at re-enactments

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Exactly how unapologetic the Frenchman in question was/is will be evident in the April Camp Chase Gazette when some recent correspondence from this individual is printed in response to the "Eric from France" letter to the editor that appeared in the last issue. Essentially, he is now denying responsibility for the whole matter, despite having a loaded gun, pleading guilty on the criminal charges and accepting a huge fine, a two day jail sentence plus the additional obligation for the victim's medical expenses which totaled $28,500. An amazing turn of events...He is pretty bold and arrogant from the safe distance of cyberspace.

I was doing research on Enfields not made in Britain (the P-53 was widely produced elsewhere), and found it interesting that the St Etienne produced P-53s were priced higher than those made elsewhere when going back into the gun trade. I assumed it was because they were fired once and dropped.

Actually Craig, if those P53's were like any other French martial arms of the 20th century, it was the other way around - they were never fired and only dropped once

[sbl]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_the_Marne

First Battle of the Marne


"....Nevertheless, the German forces were close to achieving a breakthrough against Maunoury's beleaguered Sixth Army between 6 September and 8 September—the Sixth Army was aided on 7 September by 6,000 French reserve infantry troops ferried from Paris in around 600 taxi cabs...."


And there was 1871 when the French army took back Paris from the Communards and then there's 1944.....


No Two Band Rifles or Muskets in this topic.

[Craig L Barry]

Right, that is what I think, too. The ramrod/two band rifle exclusion smacks of a liability exclusion stipulated in whatever kind of insurance policy event organizers purchase. It is the simpliest explanation that fits all the facts. It sure isn't "safety" in any sort of definition based on reality. It sounds like a "risk management" strategy on a policy rider.


Craig L Barry, Charter Propery Casualty Underwriter
Member of the CPCU Inland Marine liability policy "rider" Mess.

[Anders]

I have never ever ever heard an insurance company demand that no 2 banders are on site- that is just plain a reenactor madeupism, but then again I guess I don't have any experience putting on events or buying insurance.

BTW- at all events I put on, they are allowed.

Events that I have organized that allow rifles-

FOTM
To the Gates of Washington
Morton's Ford
Burkittsville 2001
War on the James
Summer of '62
October 1862
September Storm
Various Camps of Instruction

And upcoming events

Citizen Soldier, 1859 Ft Washington
At High Tide, Gettysburg 1863


And they have been, or are able to be used at these events as well-

Recon (1,2,2.5 and 3)
Shenandoah 1862
Hope's Campaign
Enemy at the Gates- Petersburg LH put on by the PAG

And put this in your pipe-

"Rifles are not dangerous, period. In single rank, two rank or otherwise. IF YOU FOLLOW THE MANUAL and not reenactor it all up. I get so sick of reenactors thinking they know better than the real professionals did, just because they play soldier 8-10 times a year in 2008. They need to wake up and realize they are mere children in the womb compared to the real profeesionals who wrote and devised the manuals.

IF A REENACTOR IS TOO DANGEROUS AND ILL TRAINED TO USE A RIFLE, THEY SHOULD NOT BE ON THE FIELD TO BEGIN WITH. And units that allow such refuse should be banned, period.

off soap box and back to work while the safety ninnies get their drawers wedged.

[Craig L Barry]

All right! Chris Anders either sat on the butter churn instead of the milking stool this morning, or he is on to something good here in the form of better events with more carefully thought out restrictions? I am definitely bringing my US 1841 rifle to the At High Tide Gettysburg event. It gets to be removed from display over my fireplace mantle where it has sat since the last NPS demo.

And the point then is, it suggests the mainstream events that have these restrictions must be getting them from a single source, because they are all largely written the same way with the same limitations. The NPS is extremely safety conscious and has no problem (generally) with "rifles" if the scenario supports the use of two banders. Why would that be the case? Because as Federal Department of the Interior is putting on these demonstrations, they have their own controls in place. These are not Civil War "reenactments" and the NPS does not purchase the liability coverage as would a mainstream event organizer. This is also why mainstream reenactments have you sign a liability waiver to register, also known as a "hold harmless agreement." That is for liability insurance reasons.

It is a circular argument in the end, some events will not allow two band rifles, and others will. Given the cost associated with maintaining multiple arms, most are not going to purchase a two band rifle if they can't use it at all the events that they attend. Personally, I think the US 1841 repros, especially the early Navy Arms version are much more historically accurate in terms of features, weight, appearance and function than either the Italian made 3 band Enfield, or US Model rifle muskets. The only real gripe I have is that US 1841 repro lock has a tumbler link, while the original US 1841 rifle was made with "hook" type lock internals.

[7thNJcoA]

Chris,

You forget where I live.... The communist firearms hating state NJ.... Anything to do with firearms and the public is a huge liability in NJ thats why our insurance will not allow 2 banders I will be attebding At High Tide Hopefully and I know your events are great! I have been to only 2 and they were the 2 best events ive ever been to.

[Anders]

Drew,

But from the insurance folks I know, they have no idea the difference betwen a hawken and a brown bess or 1903, unless someone has gone out of thier way to educate them, and even so, I know all they want to know is how many folks, pyro yesor no, horses, public and so forth.

No one ever ever asks to state the exact model of weapons used.

Someone has fed you a line somewhere, or you need to get another insurance company, as some reenactor has reenactored that one all up.

Pards,

[Pvt Schnapps]

Some things just kind of creep into our concept of orthodoxy, and that seems the case with the outright ban on "two banders."

I think the key point should be the ordnance assigned to unit you're representing at a particular engagement.

Using bands as a relative indicator of safety has its shortcomings. Just out of curiosity I looked up the barrel length of a few weapons. The two-band "Mississippi Rifle" runs to 33 inches while the three-band Sharps Infantry Rifle runs only 30.

Ideally either one of those weapons would be primarily if not exclusively used for skirmishing and, given the numbers actually deployed, I suspect they were mainly used by specialist units.

While the ban doesn't seem well thought out, it would have the practical effect of at least ensuring some degree of uniformity among line infantry with the potential benefit of reducing risk and glaring inauthenticities. But given that the kind of events that parrott rules like that sometimes have a track record of not generally enforcing rules, even that benefit is lost.

[Poor Private]

There are several events (mainstreamer) here in Michigan that 2 banders and pistols are allowed. 1 I can think of off hand is Bowens Mills. Of course it helps portraying Morgans raiders so it kinda fits. At this same event my son took the field with a 2 bander and the first sargent had issues. His(my sons) unit captain stuck up for him and pointed out what we rebs were carrying--is it any different than reb shotguns and side arms?
Along this same vane whats the issue of only 57" cannon on the field? When Morgans raiders historically had 2 Mt. Howitzers.

[reb64]

I've never seen two band rifles at re-enactments. Many rifles with barrels less than 36" were used during the Civil War, thus I'm surprised I don't see 2 band guns. Why?

Until reenactments can accomodate these, none will be truly progressive or hardcore.