Hawken Rifles/Muskets

[cwcav3tn]

I am trying to obtain some information concerning Hawken muskets and rifles. Were theses weapons used in the Civil War and if so, where. I located a web site to the 7 Tn Cavalry in Tennesssee that does not allow theses in their ranks.

Is it because they were not available or something.

Thanks.

Kevin Wright

[jgr1974]

Hello sir my 2 cents!

Hawken was a firearms maker with his brother down around St. Louis. They actually began making them in the 1830's to sell as a cheap weapon to pioneers heading west. By the 1850's they were very common up and down the Misssissippi. The term "hawken" as we know it, is a brand name that has been associated with all short barreled half stock rifles. Just like a photocopy is called a Xerox today. There were many makers of these halstock rifles, that are commonly reffered to as the Ohio style. Some other makers include Caleb Vincent and Dimmick. Dimmick by the way is said to have supplied the rifles to The 66th Illinois also known as "Berge's Western Sharpshooters". Alot of these weapons were assembled from parts shipped from England. Much like cutlery was during the era. The locks are usually marked "warranted" which was the word for garranteed at the time. Stocks are barrels would have been obtained locally. The cheap weapons we see sold through supply house's such as Cabela's are really not period correct.
The biggest problem being the modern sites. A true correct copy of these guns will cost about twice as much as a regular musket. If you are truly intersted and handy, they can be obtained in kit for for a little less than one assembled by a gunsmith.

One problem in reenacting is the safety issue. The shorter barrels tend to cause nightmares with safety officers at events. If used on horse back it may be acceptable.

I hope I have helped some!!!

The Mad MIck!!!

[FloridaConfederate]

I just read that unit's website and based on their posted research alone they seem to be a cut above the average cavalry "trooper". You would probably do well to hook up with those folks.

My research leads me to think of the P/E/C AOT trooper might be better represented with a m1841 rifle or Enfield rifle.

As to the Hawken flip an email to the unit rep and ask him.

Or are you trying to find justification here to take back to them to use a Hawken ? That might not be the best way to start off with your new research-based pards unless you got a pretty well suported argument for the Hawken



Good luck with the new group and BE CAREFUL. Equine warfare, albeit simulated (most often poorly) is a dangerous undertaking...especially with a long gun strapped across your back.

[cwcav3tn]

I am already in a mounted unit. I saw the web site and information posted, which lead me to think if they were used actually or not. Or (as some units do) strctly adhere to certian weapons or other equipment, because it is "how they do it" for a certian frame of time. Or for safety issues and other factors.

As for contacting the web site I already did 4 months ago, and never got a response. Perhaps I will re contact them.

I am just trying to gain further knowledge. Not start a controversy, or anything like that. Just a ???

Kevin Wright

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

I would disagree just a wee tad...

In brief and to over-generalize...

Historically, Jacob Hawken opened a gun shop in St. Louis in 1815, joined by his brother Samuel in 1822.
They made rifles (and sometimes pistols) for the local St. Louis trade, but also for the beaver trade industry. However, shop records indicate that theirs was an expensive gun especially with the fantastic inflated mark-up by the time they got to "rendyvous" as compared to "Lancaster" style "Pennsylvania" rifles that cost $12 and sold for $200 out West.
A review of Hawken shop records typically shows sales to fur company owners and leaders, as well as the more "famous" of former mountainmen like Kit Carson (who also had a copy of a "Hawken" made by a Kentucky gunmaker).

With the death of the beaver trade around 1835, the Hawkens returned to local business and custom orders, employing a number of gunsmiths. Jake died in the cholera epidemic of 1849. In 1858 Sam turned the business over to son William. In 1860, William sells the shop to William Watt and partners, and moves to Denver. In 1862 J.P. Gemmer buys the St. Louis shop after having been a gunsmith there. Gemer dabbles in breechloading modfications of surplus Sharps, Remington, and Spencer rifles making "Hawken hybrids." But with the rise of the metallic cartridge, Gemmer dabbles in local hunting rifles and repairs. Gemmer closes the shop in 1915.

With the rise of modern buckskining and "rendezvousing," "Hawken" rifles become a fashion and fad, and for a while, the "rifle of choice" even though many mountainmen never likely even saw one in their lives.

Feeding that interest and craze(s), Thompson-Center came out with a half stock "version" that is not much like an actual J., J. & S., S., or Gemmer "Hawken" except that it is short, half stocked, and percussion.
Which lead to the Italains and Spanish marketing their own cheaper versions that for a time could be found at K-Mart.

Because of the "half stock" "percussion" similarities between the Thompson-Center, Italian/Spanish TC clones, and actual Civl War era civilian rifles such as Dimmmick, Leman, and hundreds of local gunmakers East and West more "History-Light" units made them "okay" for use.
And there was a time when they could had for 1/4 or 1/3 the cost of a "Springfield" or "Enfield," in some units they were popular for guys on a "budget," "new recruits", and 12 year sons of members who could not man-handle a full sized weapon.

Over the years, in many Mainstream circles, these Hawken "Hawkins" have been banned as too "unhistorical" or too "unsafe."

CHS
Who almost was shot in the face at Antietam 135 by two 10-12 year boys
trying to balance a musket cap on Italian clone "Hawkins."

[reb64]

I am trying to obtain some information concerning Hawken muskets and rifles. Were theses weapons used in the Civil War and if so, where. I located a web site to the 7 Tn Cavalry in Tennesssee that does not allow theses in their ranks.

Is it because they were not available or something.

Thanks.

Kevin Wright

funny thing is reenacting is moving towards authenticity they say, then proclude you from using the "authentic" two band rifles and mskets, quoting safety. alot of bs if grown men can't fire 2 banders in the front and still be safe. if yo want to b authentic, then you might really have to stay home.

[Southern Cal]

One sometimes finds references by Confederate officers to "rifles of the country", that is, private small arms of different calibers brought by their owners to war. These remarks are usually made in context of complaints over the lack of enough standardized military firearms. Apparently there was a volunteer cavalry regiment, the "East Tennessee Squirrel Shooters", who were armed with "country rifles", modified for military service. A gunsmith in Knoxville, Thomas Riggins, and his sixty employees, worked a contract to convert "country rifles" and flintlocks into percussion carbines with a standard military bore size (one assumes .54 or .58 caliber) sufficient to arm at least this particular unit. The fact that this cavalry unit hailed from the mountainous region of east Tennessee provides a strong inference that these firearms were probably "Kentucky" or "Tennessee" style rifles, shortened for cavalry use and rebored to fire a type of army issue ammunition. It might be well worth your time to research further into this subject since the information refers to a specific City, a gunsmith, and a named Tennessee cavalry unit. Source: "Echoes of Glory", Arms & Equipment of The Confederacy.

Ye Hawken won't do though. For "Plains" rifles, you might have to go west for CSA cavalry operating in Missouri, Arkansas, and Texas, or other units like the Cherokee Mounted Rifles, etc., serving in areas where it was difficult to obtain military arms suitable for cavalry service. Just my opinion.