Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: "Historically Correct" Cartridge Guns Of "The Good, The Bad And The Ugly"?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    462

    Question "Historically Correct" Cartridge Guns Of "The Good, The Bad And The Ugly"?

    Quote taken from the Internet Movie Database Of Firearms:

    "Blondie (Clint Eastwood) carries a Colt 1851 Navy revolver with a loading gate cartridge conversion kit (which is actually historically correct-the first conversions were made in 1859, and .38 Short Colt was invented at the beginning of the Civil War) throughout the film, his being outfitted with wooden grips inlaid with silver rattlesnakes, with which all his revolvers were fitted in the Leone trilogy."

    http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Good,_the_..._the_Ugly,_The

    So are we supposed to conclude that cartridge guns were actually used during the civil war on a much larger scale, contrary to conventional wisdom?

  2. #2

    Default

    Hallo!

    Historical misinformation mostly. Hollyweird, not History.

    Self-contained metallic cartridges were nothing new by the time of the ACW. Shoot (no pun intended...), the first dates back to Pauly's French patent in 1812. Lefaucheux invented the pin-fired metallic cartridge in 1846, and center-fire version in 1854. Houiller received a patent for a rimfire cartridge in 1847, but Flobert had already made on in 1845 which he had on display at the London Exhibition of 1851.

    In the USA, SMith & Wesson received a patent for a self-contained center-fire metallic cartridge in 1854 but it was too difficult and costly to make.

    Between 1856 and 1858 Wesson went on to "perfect' the first true rimfire cartridge by redoing the Flobert version.

    When Colt's patent for mechanically rotated cylinders ran out in 1856, the door was open. And the S & W NO. 1 came out in 1857 in .22. Then in 1861, in .32. Which started the Rollin White bored-through cylinder patent monopoly for Smith & Wesson.

    Because of the White Patent for bored through cylinders in S & W's hands, Colt, Remington, and others could do nothing until the patent ran out (and was not extended beyond 1868 ...) (Side Note: there were a number of small makers infringing on the patent typically pursued in court by S & W). For example, Remington shelved its cartridge revolver until the M1875, and looked at non-infringement violations options only.

    With great demand for metallic cartridge revolvers from the military as well as westerners... before the end of the Civil War former C & B revolvers by Remington, Colt, Starr, Whitney, and others were being privately converted by gunsmiths using the "conversion cylinder" method-- modifying the cylinder by cutting off the cone/nipple end, fitting a cartridge conversion plate or face, and a firing pin to the hammer nose or recoil frame. And grinding a loading groove sometimes left as is or often with a loading gate attached to close it.).. Also remember, conversions do not predate the invention of the cartridge they shoot. The first metallic conversion cartridges were just the percussion .36 or .44 externally lubed conical bullets stuck in a copper cartridge.

    Between 1868 and 1870, the factories got in on it such as Colt with their Thuer conversion followed by the Richards and then Richards-Mason conversions. (Which led to the M1871/72 "Open Top" Colt when the Rollin White patent freed up. Which led to the military M1873 'Peacemaker" released to the civilian market after 187.

    IMHO, the "cartridge conversions" in the (supposedly) CW and immediately after were not done to showcase cartridge conversions. INSTEAD, they were done as a convenient way for the armorers and prop department to introduce Italian repro's of CW C & B revolvers AND... not have the armorers messing around with loose black powder and caps. It was revolutionary for Western movies and help end prop department reliance on old and worn original M1894 Winchesters and post 1900 made Colt Peacemakers with 4 3/4 or 5 1/2 inch barrels no matter what the year of the movie even pre Civil War.

    Curt
    Last edited by Curt-Heinrich Schmidt; 01-07-2017 at 02:59 PM.
    In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

    Not a real Civil War reenactor, I only portray one on boards and fora.
    I do not portray a Civil War soldier, I merely interpret one.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Lawton, Oklahoma
    Posts
    212

    Default

    The funny part is in the showdown at the very end, they do a close up of Lee Van Cleef's hand near the butt of his Remington, and there is a cartridge belt full of metal cartridges, and percussion caps on the cones of the revolver. Even Eastwood's Henry is some bastardized thing they put together. All Hollywood, there is no history in that movie other than the use of Canby and Sibley's names.
    Frank Siltman
    Cannoneer, Fort Sill Historic Gun Detachment
    24th MO Vol Inf
    Lawton/Fort Sill, OK

  4. #4

    Default

    Hallo!

    In the "older" westerns before the rise of Italian repro rifles... to make "Henry's," the armorer/prop department often took M1892/1894 Winchesters and just took off the wooden forearm. Sometimes they painted the receivers "brass."

    Curt
    In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

    Not a real Civil War reenactor, I only portray one on boards and fora.
    I do not portray a Civil War soldier, I merely interpret one.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    462

  6. #6

    Default

    Trinity carried an 1851 also.
    Rob Weaver
    Pine River Boys, Co I, 7th Wisconsin
    "We're... Christians, what read the Bible and foller what it says about lovin' your enemies and carin' for them what despitefully use you -- that is, after you've downed 'em good and hard."
    -Si Klegg and His Pard Shorty

  7. #7

    Default

    Hallo!

    Only in "The Good, the Bad, the Ugly" the third of the trilogy.

    Joe, the Stranger, aka "The Man With No Name," "Manco," only used the Hollywood modified Colt M1851 repro in the GBU I suspect may be due to its "Civil War" time period.

    In "Fistful of Dollars" and "For a Few Dollars More" Eastwood uses a Colt M1873 Peacemaker with 5 1/2 barrel (the same he gets in a 1959 "Rawhide" episode where he (Rowdy Yates) shoots the bad guy and takes his gun).

    Curt
    In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

    Not a real Civil War reenactor, I only portray one on boards and fora.
    I do not portray a Civil War soldier, I merely interpret one.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •