Lorenz.. 2 or 3 band ?

[Griebz]

Hey all

This came up in discussion a while back but I don't remember seeing a definite answer. Without getting into who makes it or a conversation about Indian guns.. I just want to know if the lorenz is considered a full size rifle musket... A 3 band. I've seen them now at quite a few events in the ranks . So I figured they were Ok for front and rear ranks. Any thoughts?

Peter Griebel

[TheQM]

The Lorenz is a three band rifle. The front and middle bands are just very close together.

[Boyd Miles]

I have no idea what the length of the barrel may be on a repro but the distance between cone and muzzle (the two noisy bits) on an original is 37" only an inch shorter than an Enfield and two and a half inches less than an 1861. Compare that to a couple of actual rifles (two banders in re-enacting speak) The 1841 is 32 3/4" and a Brazilian Light Minie is 31 1/2", once again these are originals and may not be the same as a reproduction. Muskets: from the scary spark and flame of the pan on the Flintlock or the cone on a conversion of an 1816 is 41" which is a half inch less than the 1842.
I guess if you really want the safest then you use an 1842 (if the repops are the same as the originals) and mark the centre of the barrel which is not the middle band. Always place the centre point in line with the ear of the front rank hearing loss victim.

[Griebz]

Thanks all.. I thought it would be considered a 3 band. I kind of want one and wasn't sure . I've seen a lot of them lately .

Pete Griebel

[flattop32355]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but "Lorenz" can mean a number of Austrian made long arms, but most often is used to refer to the 1854 .54 cal. rifle musket, some of which got rebored to .58 cal. It was said to be the second most imported foreign long arm of the war. Others were true rifles, with shorter barrels and only 2 barrel bands.

[Rob Weaver]

There was a Lorenz that was short barrelled, sometimes called the "Jaeger." It had a distinctive trigger guard. I'm not sure if it was imported to the US, but it is sometimes confused for its longer cousin. I've seen it pictured in some very old books as the Lorenz (like the Official Military Atlas of the Civil War, for instance).

[31stWisconsin]

Yes, the 1854 Extra Korps - Gewehr Lorenz was a shortened version of the 1854 Lorenz rifle musket. It had a 26.5" barrel, as opposed to the 37.25" barrel of the standard 1854 Lorenz infantry rifle. In comparison the 1861 Springfield had a 40" barrel.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Lt. Josef Lorenz gets his last name "assigned' to the Model 1854 Rifle Musket and the Model 1854 Short Rifle because the Vienna Arsenal's developmental program was under his charge duirng an exhaustive study that mimiced those of the United States and Great Britain regarding a reduction in bore size, rifling stanbdard infantry arms, an dteh adoption of an expanding type bulet. (The Austrians did not like the "Minie" system and instead went with a modified British Wilkinson by Lorenz.

In addition to the Vienna arsenal, the "Lorenz" was made by a number of private manufacturers such as Osterlein and Pirko in Vienna, also Heiser, and Fruwirth.

Civil WAr record keeping makes teh differecnes between the RM and the "Short Rifle" hard a times. A total of 7,292 were imported. Of that, historians believe 1,044 listed from Tuska as "short rifles" were indeed Short Rilfes. 6,248 were deliverd by Boker, 1,016 described as "short rifled muskets." The remaining 5,232 were listed in Crispin's and Hanger's reports. 488 ar elisted as "Yager rifles" but their price being unusually low, are thought to have been Prussian Model 1835/47 Jaeger Rifles.

NUG, the U.S. viewed "rifles" as having heavy walled 32 or 33 inch barrels. The Enfield P1853 RM had a barel of 39, so the Austria RM at 37.5 is not all that "short."

The oft talked about repro "Lorenz" offered by Dixie Gun Works is the... "yager carbine" Short Rifle version.

Confederates bought about 100,000 "Lorenz's," but they are not specified and most believe they were the M1854 Rifle Musket.

Curt

[TheQM]

The Federals purchased well over 200,000 of the Austrian weapons. The huge majority were the standard Model 1854, with three bands, a 37.5" barrel, and a ramrod channel.

[Griebz]

Thank you for all the replies.. So I guess it's safe to say this is to be considered a 3 band and can be used in front and rear ranks.

Peter Griebel