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Thread: What makes a civilian impression

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    New Baltimore, MI
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    408

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    I belive what Cullen is reffering to since we were in the same company was a man came back to camp stating a pistol had been shoved into his upper chest side area which according to his pard it was capped. Not sure who it was that did it however.

    I'll have more to write tomorrow that may or may not help but might al least provide some light.
    Respectfully,

    Jeremy Bevard
    Sally Port Mess
    Historic Fort Wayne Coalition
    Old Northwest Volunteers

    "If the men pursue the enemy as vigorously as they do the whores they will make very efficient soldiers."
    Charles B. Haydon, 2nd Michigan-May 6, 1861

    "The horse is dead, his bones beat to a fine powder, the powder used to make a fine biscuit, and the biscuit beaten back into a powder."
    John Wickett

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    603

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    Jeremy,that is the case I am talking about.I would also like to bring up the case of another member of our company being threatened to get kicked off the site because he walked through camp.This company member stated that he simply walked through the civilian town and had someone start talking to him,stating that he would leave the town right away,and if they did not,than,because the townsman worked for Perryville,threatened to have said soldier kicked out of town.
    Cullen Smith
    South Union Guard

    "Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake"~W.C. Fields

    "When I drink whiskey, I drink whiskey; and when I drink water, I drink water."~Michaleen Flynn 'The Quiet Man'

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Olive Branch,MS
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    I had a shotgun, not a pistol. And the folks on the Home Guard are knowledgeable and veteran reenactors who would not "shove a pistol" into someone's chest. Especially when said pistol was capped.
    As to the soldier who was threatened to be removed. That would be me. Said soldier did not want to listen to us and do as requested for our scenario. He was insistent he was going to ignore our rules and continue to walk through town as opposed to going 30 feet around the Town. Said young man wanted to be, in my terms, "froggy" and thought he was above the rules of the event. When he continued to want to push his way thorugh me, as the "provost" of the Town, I let him know that I could get one of the Park personnel to remove him from the event. We were told by Park personnel that anyone not wanting to follow the rules should be reported to them and they would handle it.
    Please reread Ms. Lawson's previous post. The real problem is "scenario-busting" by individuals that think they are above the rules and regulations of a reenactment. I have always requested someone to go around Town by starting out " Excuse me. we are closed to military. Please go around the Town." Some comply, some want to get mouthy. Again as has been said - we civilians don't come to Military camps and insist on doing what we want. We are merely trying to get the Military to recognize we have scenarios in place and to respect our game as we respect theirs.
    I can be a quite pleasant "grumpy old man" when people will listen to polite requests. I had several fun and interesting "playtimes" over the weekend. I will increasingly become less pleasant when confronted with reenactors who feel entitled to do whatever they want. And when push comes to shove, I will get very insistent. As Ms. Lawson has stated - these scenarios will be played out in future BGA events. Please come into Town and respect the scenarios we have in place. And as Dalton says in Road House - be nice.
    Robert Orrand
    Forrest Camp #215, SCV
    Mayor of Dover, Little York, Purdy, Raymond, LaFayette - and now, Gettysburg
    4th TN CSA - Co A - Shelby Greys

  4. #24
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    Feb 2006
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    Tuskaloosa, Alabama
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    Jeremy,

    When you are writing, Help an old lady out here please.

    (1) As company commander, Did the instruction reach you that the Perryville Civilian Living History Village was 'off limits' to military?

    (2) Did these men see the signs placed by the Park at Village approaches that said in bold letters 'Living History Village, No Military'


    My dyepots were in a location such that I witnessed the bulk of the Home Guard interaction. I saw no gunplay that I considered to be unsafe. As a general rule, I heard at least one, and up to three politely worded, 'conversational tones' request to take the alternate route (about 20 feet away).

    That step over to the road was not a hard one, I made it several times each day as soldiers who understood the scenario stood there until they got my attention to talk about dyeing goods.

    I'm really looking for the disconnect here. Where did the communication short circuit between some men in the ranks and some commanders? Obviously the information was clear, as it was known to Confederates.
    Mrs. Lawson
    Weaver, Spinster, Strong Fast Dyes
    Knitted Goods and yarns available thlawson@bellsouth.net



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  5. #25
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    New Baltimore, MI
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    I was a Lieutenant of a company in the 24th Illinois. At least our company was not aware of the no military in the civilian town rule. As Cullen stated we had a few men come back to camp Saturday with tales of woe trying to pass through. This was my first hearing of it that I can recall and without a doubt the first I had heard of it at the event. Perhaps I heard about it in a conversation before the event sometime but I don’t recall it. Men were complaining that it was ok for “them” to cut through our camp but they could not do the same. We did have civilian women cutting through our battalion and our company area to get to a water source all weekend. Unknown to any of us they were not from down in the valley. I realized this myself later on Sunday that these women were from the artillery camp (whole ‘nother issue). If the men were disrespectful I will apologize on the companies behalf. I was assured that they were not and I believe them. However, I know there are always two sides. I have worked with the public my whole career and every side has some truth since our perception of a situation is our reality.

    I am not so sure that the Confederates received the information better than the Federals. The town was at the bottom of the hill we were camped on and was between our camp and the sutler and visitors center. In addition the “trail” of sorts that lead down the hill naturally drew men to follow the road down the edge of town. I don’t think the Confederates were in that kind of layout where it was natural for them to need/want to go that way.

    I can say I personally missed the signs posted outside the town. I walked through the town twice and never saw them. Once on Friday afternoon round trip without an incident. Sunday a couple of us came back to camp through the town after the dedication where there was conversation.

    On Sunday I think confusion was added whether we could be in the town or not. Since on Saturday night we were told a group of Federals (some in my company participated) went to secure the town and push out the home guard. The assumption would then be we could be there. When I came through the town I saw Mr. Orrand dealing with two Federals trying to cut through. We realized we shouldn’t be there and kept walking trying to get out of the town. Mr. Orrand stopped me to help with these men (which I didn’t know) and wanting to discuss his challenges since I was an officer. I told the men to listen and go around which they did leave with us and I stayed to here the grievance. I listened to everything and understand I would not want lip either from individuals all weekend. I did let him know that my understanding was that last night we retook the town and so we could be in town. He told me that was last nights scenario and not today’s.

    I respect that civilians want to and should have their own scenarios without question. However, given the close proximity of the Federal camp it was going to be an uphill battle and perhaps historical in that if a military camp was so close it would be very difficult to keep the men out of town unless a guard was placed.

    Here are my thoughts on how to alleviate this point of stress on both sides.

    1) The communication needs to happen at battalion dress parades (or formation if no parade is planned) when the orders are published that we are to stay out of the town.
    2) It will always be an uphill battle to keep military out of the town if it is a natural place to walk through when needing to get to another area. Sadly, I know with room constraints that could be unavoidable.
    3) If the scenario or rule for the civilian area is no military then don’t allow other scenarios to take place which could confuse that issue.

    In the end I am sorry that your scenario did not go as planned and that some were frustrated by it all. Perhaps and I hope that at the next event things will go smoother.
    Respectfully,

    Jeremy Bevard
    Sally Port Mess
    Historic Fort Wayne Coalition
    Old Northwest Volunteers

    "If the men pursue the enemy as vigorously as they do the whores they will make very efficient soldiers."
    Charles B. Haydon, 2nd Michigan-May 6, 1861

    "The horse is dead, his bones beat to a fine powder, the powder used to make a fine biscuit, and the biscuit beaten back into a powder."
    John Wickett

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Olive Branch,MS
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    Thanks so much for your post. Very well said and thoughtful. And thanks for your help on Sunday.
    What we want for Town is like what happened Saturday AM and evening. In the AM, a whole force of Federals came through Town to arrest one of our Townspeople who was rumored to have stolen a strongbox seen on the Preservation March Friday. The evening incursion was set up to allow a little fun to be had with the Peacock and my Home Guard. Unfortunately everyone was at the Talent show, so only I got to play. And I was arrested trying to bribe the Lt. of said company.
    I believe strongly that, based on your post, and conversations with said officer who prompted me to start this post, Federal staff did not get the information during Officer's call. I was with the Park representative when she radioed Friday AM to both commands about the no military rule. Ms. Lawson and I will continue to try and find where this disconnect is.
    Continuing on with the 150ths, each Town will have scenarios with military as happened at Twin Rivers, Shiloh and Perryville. We continue to want those scenarios. We encourage company strength patrols to approach town and request a scenario - searching for contraband, scouting out opposition strength, etc. And reenactors not discernible as military (I know, harder to do for federals when they only have a dress hat or forage cap) are welcome to come unarmed into Town. Unarmed and not in uniform, they may be just another farmer.
    It was also unfortunate that the Federal Provost could not be set up this weekend. I know it just did not work out. As far as Civilians going through camp, I would like it if our Civilians could be stopped and turned around by the Provost. Even arrested and marched back to Town under guard. But your situation was from women in Arty camp, which would make the fun part of that harder on your side. What I am thankful about your post is to continue the discussion of getting information to the ranks, generating more discussion on scenarios that can be played out and letting Military know more of what we are trying to accomplish. Thanks again for the Post.
    Robert Orrand
    Forrest Camp #215, SCV
    Mayor of Dover, Little York, Purdy, Raymond, LaFayette - and now, Gettysburg
    4th TN CSA - Co A - Shelby Greys

  7. #27

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    Hallo!

    This has evolved into a very good discussion- that should bear fruits for the future on several fronts.

    Thanks.

    Curt
    In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

    Not a real Civil War reenactor, I only portray one on boards and fora.
    I do not portray a Civil War soldier, I merely interpret one.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    Tuskaloosa, Alabama
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    Thank you Jeremy

    Who was your company under command-wise? We know that some Federals did get the word, and it was in pre-event information.

    Of course, hindering all of this is the concept of 'let's play'. Civilians should not have been parading through military camps--it's historically inaccurate. Military picketts would have stopped them. Some folks are not flexible enough in their reenacting to cope with actual situations, like getting a military pass.

    And site constraints are a limitation. I had to go to the parking lot Saturday night to hook up to my breathing machine. Try as I might, the best I could do in avoiding military camps was to walk on the far side of the road up the hill.

    The fact remains though, the idea of a civilian town being off limits to troops should not be foreign one- This sort of order was issued to troops during the period.
    Mrs. Lawson
    Weaver, Spinster, Strong Fast Dyes
    Knitted Goods and yarns available thlawson@bellsouth.net



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  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    211

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    Mr.Mayor... If memory serves me right your Civilian impressions are all ways well done. Possibly the person in question wouldn't know a Civilian if he tripped over him on the way to the portojohns... And you know that the Officers on both sides of the hobby are never wrong........just sayin' Paul Lopes 1st. S.C. Vols. see ya on Main Street.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Lawrenceburg, KY
    Posts
    28

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    I will take the fault for lack of communication, perhaps I didn't articulate correctly the desire for no military in town. With that being said, I would like to go back in time to 2005 when the idea of a Civilian Town came to life. (This may not have been an original concept, but it was to us at the time). There were several of us, who wanted to reenact in a different capacity than the mixed camp. The idea was to come to events have an area that allowed us to be civilians while our men went off to be soldiers. We didn't need the military to have fun. We could make our own fun as civilians. We could build a town, (a tent city, when real buildings weren't available) and make it come to life. The impressions were to be those of a town, businesses, farmers, livery, etc. We built standards for participants and stick to them. The requirements to play would include but not limited to, the right mind set, staying in period clothes from the time the event started until ended,etc. Those standards have risen over the last few years. At the time there weren't very many men doing civilian impressions, it mostly was women and children. At Perryville, as Civilian Coordinator, the opportunity was presented and we did just that. The 2006 National was the first time we did such and it was great fun. At any given time over the years these towns have been garrisoned by each army and off limits at other times. With the BGA 150th events we are seeing these towns at each event. They fill a need for Civilian impressions who want to go a step further and get the opportunity to live as they lived. Our intent is to not be an issue for the military. Men should have a place to be men, all we want is a place for a civilian to be a civilian. If you, as military soldiers wish to have scenarios that pertain to civilians, let the coordinator know. We are willing to play.

    Basically, what we are asking is this, when you attend an event that has a civilian town, please check to see what the coordinators are looking for as far as scenarios and play along. We will in return respect your military camps and not go parading through to "see what ya'll are doin".

    With much respect to all,
    Beverly Simpson

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