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Thread: Defarbed Loyalist Arms Lorenz

  1. #1
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    Default Defarbed Loyalist Arms Lorenz

    BRI (and Todd Watts) are going to try to do something with the India-made M-1854 Austrian rifle a/k/a "Lorenz." The newer batches
    feature some cosmetic improvements and the lock parts are actually pretty good. But that barrel...a defarbed Lorenz with the rifled .54
    barrel is going to push $1000. The other option is the .62 smoothbore. You can find original Lorenz M-54s in shooting condition at around
    this pricing point.

    I have provided some gun maker's names and proof mark info for the stamps to be made up but in the final analysis, the choices for
    re-enactors are somewhat grim:

    1. An Italian reproduction from Armi Sport, not cheap and not too accurate. Getting harder to find, too.
    Shipments are irregular and orders go unfilled for months.

    2. An Italian reproduction from Pedersoli---do not have one in hand but not likely to be under a $1000, likely more than that.

    3. The made-in-India garbage.
    Craig L Barry

    Author: The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy

  2. #2
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    Default

    The moderators may crack down on this thread but this should be a fair question.

    Are the muskets from Loyalist Arms made in India?

    Are the muskets from Middlesex made in India? I talked to a revy/F&I brit reenactor unit in MI and they have banned them from their ranks.

    I never know where to go to get a good answer.

    Bill H.
    Lower Michigan.

  3. #3
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    Default

    The short answer is Yes, and Yes.

    However they are not from the SAME manufactorer in India. While I know that Middlesex has been banned in some circles, that is not true as far as I know for Loyalist Arms. I recommend if you own said weapon to take it to a known gunsmith and have it tested. Thus you will have the proof you need if your weapon is sound. I own a Veteran Arms 42, and it is a sound, safe musket. Also as we speak, Veteran Arms is working on thier own version of the Lorenz in 54mm. Something I am looking forward to seeing.

    S.D.Swart
    Last edited by S.D.Swart; 04-17-2012 at 01:01 PM.

  4. #4
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    S.D.,
    Does LA have an idea of when they will have a finished product in .54 caliber? Also, have they taken steps into fixing different parts (stock, hammer, etc.) to make them more accurate to the original? I'd EASILY be willing to spend $500-$700 to buy a finished Lorenz in .54 (rifled) and doesn't need to be defarbed.
    Jason K.
    Prodigal Sons Mess
    36th Illinois Co. "B"
    Old Northwest Volunteers

  5. #5
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    Default

    S.D., I would love to have a 54mm Lorenz! But, I will settle on a little .54" (Caliber) one instead.(LOL) Yes, the Loyalist and Middlesez guns are Indian-made. Quality is decent, but the wood is not beech nor walnut. It appears to be some sort of rapid-growing fruit wood. The metal parts are all good quality, but the issue has been questions about the barrels. There have been some that have split. I have a .75" Bess from The Discerning General that is Indian and have fired it many times with a ball and 80 grs FFg without problem. I trust mine and have seen no vent-wear to lead me to believe that the barrel is not at least as safe as they originally were. But, I think they are using extruded pipe for barrels which leaves an un-seen seam. If the seam is compromised by the vent, that could start the split. But for blanks it won't be an issue unless you are really stupid with it. I am about to start replacing/adding stampings to them and refinishing the wood to make it hopefully appear more like beech and linseed. They are really pretty close already though. The next step we'll look into is sleeving the barrel with a rifled .54" or .58" barrel which ought to make it even stronger than they are currently. Replacing the barrel completely with a .54"/.58" rifle barrel is a better option, but all this has to be figured out as we poke along this project. Keeping the finished price to under a grand is the hard part.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dbackfed View Post
    S.D.,
    Does LA have an idea of when they will have a finished product in .54 caliber? Also, have they taken steps into fixing different parts (stock, hammer, etc.) to make them more accurate to the original? I'd EASILY be willing to spend $500-$700 to buy a finished Lorenz in .54 (rifled) and doesn't need to be defarbed.
    Not LA, but Veteran Arms out of GA is working on a Lorenz for thier lineup. Presently the only Civil War era musket they produce is a 42 Springfield.

  7. #7
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    The whole thing is still kind of up in the air. Again, the barrel is the thing. The original barrel had a very slow twist, something like 1:80.
    Last edited by Craig L Barry; 04-18-2012 at 11:58 PM.
    Craig L Barry

    Author: The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy

  8. #8
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    Craig,

    I'm a little confused by your initial post. You make reference to three options (Armi Sport, Pedersoli, and "Made in India")... were you refering to options available for new repro muskets generally, or repro Lorenz musket?

    If the latter...
    Egad! When did I miss hearig about the Italians making repop Lorenzs!

    Thanks!!

    Wick
    Happy owner of a rehabbed original Lorenz!
    John Wickett
    Carpetbagger

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyHallVols View Post
    Craig,

    I'm a little confused by your initial post. You make reference to three options (Armi Sport, Pedersoli, and "Made in India")... were you refering to options available for new repro muskets generally, or repro Lorenz musket?

    If the latter...
    Egad! When did I miss hearig about the Italians making repop Lorenzs!

    Thanks!!

    Wick
    Happy owner of a rehabbed original Lorenz!
    Sorry that was not clearer, the only reproduction Lorenz is the India made version. The only reproduction muskets available
    are from the third world, Pedersoli and Armi Sport in Italy. I still have not seen the Pedersoli Enfield but should have one by
    mid-May, if it passes N-SSA scrutiny.
    Craig L Barry

    Author: The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy

  10. #10

    Default

    Hallo!

    We shall see.

    The prototype "Enfields" submitted to the N-SSA's SAC for approval have problems with dimensions being outside of the "tolerences/specs."

    In ye Olden Daze, there used to be a Secret Double Standard in the N-SSA. Individual gunmakers were held to a far more exacting set of measurements and standards that were the commercial makers (NUG, the "Italians"). Some believe this was due to Navy Arms' founder and N-SSA Way Back member Val Forgett importing italian guns.

    Some time ago, it was said that the Double Standard was gone.

    We shall see what happens now, and whether that is true or not.
    If not true, the new "Enfields" will be approved.
    If true, Pedersoil will have to bring them within N-SSA SAC tolerances/specs in order to be approved for N-SSA use.
    IMHO still, it raises more questions as to whether Pedersoli will go with turnng their backs on the smaller member number N-SSA organization, and produce them, as is, for the larger numbers and larger potential market in the reenacting community (assuming reenactors will not balk too much in paying say $1100-$1400 for them. Plus the "Foreign/European" market.

    Curt
    In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

    Not a real Civil War reenactor, I only portray one on boards and fora.
    I do not portray a Civil War soldier, I merely interpret one.

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