enfield bare metal?

[butternutgrayintn]

Friend of mine aquired a 3 band enfield euro arms that has a bare metal lockplate and barrel with brass bands....most of the enfields ive seen have blued barrels ....is this historically accurate and legite?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

As they left the factories, "Enfields" had rust-blued barrels, heat-blued bands, and (color) hardened lock plates and hammers.

You can read Geoff Walden's excellent study of the issue of factory finishes versus some that were later "struck bright."

The earlier Italian Enfield repro's were made with incorrect brass 4th Model Baddeley bands not used in American CW. When lads removed the black finish to strike theirs bright, they ended up with "brass" bands.

Curt

[indguard]

Actually, there absolutely were some British Enfields with brass bands during the era. I have an original, fully identified, with brass bands.

So, we have to be careful here.

It is true that many repops have the incorrect bands, but it is not true that no Civil War era Enfields had brass bands.

The question is, what do yours look like, butternutgrayintn?

WTH
The HoldItAMinnute mess

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

I should let this one go, but I "can't."



The danger and risk of answering complex questions with brief answers begs the caveat of giving the appearance of using Universals (always, never, etc) as they can become Absolutes.
Because there is NUG (normally, usually, generally) "always" the possibiity and even reality of exceptions if one makes a rule or uses absolutes.

Casually reading, and not researching a statement that there were "some" brass banded P1853 4th Model RSAF "Enfield" RM's used in the ACW, could, possibly be taken not as the rarest of exceptions or to use a Universal or Absolute to illustrate the point... be then used as an "Excuse" to dwell on the none or the rare, and make the exception the rule.

Not be confrontational at all, but always looking to learn new things I do not know. If there is a verified brass barreled banded BSAT commercial P1853 (3), OR a British government RSAF P1853 (4) (or London Commercial or London Armoury P1853) with factual ACW use and provenance, please share it, esepically pictures so I can learn more.
(Even if it is the oddity.

Thanks! I appreciate it greatly. ANYTIME we can move the Resting Point or Hinge Point of CW firearm history forward, it is a good thing.

Again, not being confrontational or snarky, or incredulous, just hoping to learn something new here.

CHS
Desire to Learn Mess

[indguard]

I don't need your approval to know that authentic brass banded Enfields exist. Ask a knowledgable Enfield collector. (And, I don't believe for a second that you were't being confrontational or snarky. Of course you were) In fact, Geoff Walden himself agreed that my brass banded Enfield is correct (he and I talked in the late 80s about this gun).

Now, were brass banded Enfields plentiful? Of course not. I never made any claims as to how plentiful they were or weren't. All I cautioned is that we should not tell people that none existed when they clearly did. Nor did I make any claims that because there were some brass banded Enfields that any brass banded repop is perfectly OK. You are the one that jumped to the wild conclusion that I was trying to excuse farbisms.

It is probable that the guy that posted the first post here has those bad Baddeley styled bands that so many of the early Enfield repops had.

My caution was simply to warn against making any broad claims that aren't true.

By the way, here is the link to Walden's Enfield defarbing article.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...en/enfauth.htm

WTH
The ReadWahtISaid mess

[Blair]

indguard,

I do not wish nor meaning to suggest your statement is not at all true for any reasons... I for one would like very much to know more about this particular piece you have made reference to?
Would you be willing to share the info and documentation? I would find it especially exciting to my areas of study on the subject.
Blair

[Craig L Barry]

I don't need your approval to know that authentic brass banded Enfields exist. Ask a knowledgable Enfield collector. (And, I don't believe for a second that you were't being confrontational or snarky. Of course you were) In fact, Geoff Walden himself agreed that my brass banded Enfield is correct (he and I talked in the late 80s about this gun).

Now, were brass banded Enfields plentiful? Of course not. I never made any claims as to how plentiful they were or weren't. All I cautioned is that we should not tell people that none existed when they clearly did. Nor did I make any claims that because there were some brass banded Enfields that any brass banded repop is perfectly OK. You are the one that jumped to the wild conclusion that I was trying to excuse farbisms.

It is probable that the guy that posted the first post here has those bad Baddeley styled bands that so many of the early Enfield repops had.

My caution was simply to warn against making any broad claims that aren't true.

By the way, here is the link to Walden's Enfield defarbing article.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...en/enfauth.htm

WTH
The ReadWahtISaid mess

I clicked on the link you provided to Geoff Walden's excellent monograph, and here is what he actually says on the matter:

"You can grind the Italian brass bands to the correct shape, but you cannot use them on a gun that is to be struck bright, since original P53s did not have brass bands. If your gun will remain blue, you will have to have the brass bands professionally reblacked, and the finish will eventually rub thin, allowing the brass to show through. Nothing ruins a good authentic Enfield impression more than brass showing through on the barrel bands."

[ACo.]

indguard, can you post pictures? It would be very interesting to see pictures. Having been looking at P53s and other "Enfields" for 40+ years, I have never seen one with brass bands and find your statements to be very interesting.

[Tiger_rifles]

Well, there is your answer Sir from some of the most well informed folks on CW Muskets todate!

I do remember back a few years there was some talk of folks using those brass bands for some form of Southern made Enfield copy, but they would be few and far between in the ranks, and very Unit specific. I de-farbed my Enfield a few years back and found some very nice replacement/repro type 3 bands in iron. I would say that more than one of us here has an "original" musket that has had replacement/reproduction parts put on it long ago,(back when the only repro muskets were the Mdl 1863 Springfield, Type 4 Enfield, and the "Zouave"), when these were used for re-enacting.

A word of caution........ there are afew "indtrolls" here on the forum that will pop out from under thier bridge from time to time hoping to start a fight. Best to just ignore them and listen to those experts,(like the ones that have replied here), that give thier knowledge freely when they could be chargeing for all this.

Many thanks Ladies and Gents for the information you share with us......... and ask nothing in return!

[reddcorp]

"Sometimes....it's just the way you say things, Travis. That's all. I swear to God".
James Bowie, from "The Alamo"

For what it's worth.

A. Redd