Loaded Rifle Bought At Gunshow

[VRCordsgt]

A few months ago I was able to purchase a replacement for my St.Louis Hawken Rifle. I know it is not a Civil War Period arm, but the post is valid.

The rifle was in a rack on the selelrs table and I ask permission to pick it up and examine it. On doing so I noticed the ramrod was sticking out beyond the muzzel in its thimbles. I myself make my ramrods a bit longer for a better grip when loading a fouled bore, so thought nothing of it.

At home I was doing so checking and minor cleaning and to check the cone (nipple) was clear, I capped it and pointed it at the ground. Imagine my shock and surprise when a loud BOOM issued from the bore with a flash of light and cloud of sulfure smoke. Thank goodness I was outside! I had been correct, the ramrod is longer than the barrel but I still should have used a regulation ramrod to check for a loaded condition.

I could not get to the show the next day, but did call and report the incident to the promoters and later was told by someone I knew who had tables at the shows that the promoters did go around and check "ALL" firearms for loads.

IMHO, this should have been done prior to the doors opening on Saturday Morning. Do a check of every firearm as the vendors are setting up on Friday afternoon and evening.
Those coming to the shows with firearms to sell/trade are subjected to a weapons inspection, why not the full, weekend vendors?

I was at a show in Miami years ago when a 11 year old boy was killed with a pistol the police at the door failed to inspect as the owner had several others, and when he showed it to a vendor to possably sell to him and the man pulled the slide back and saw the round in the chamber, he let go of the slide, which was not fully drawn back, fell and the firing pin struck the primer and discharged the round. THe bullet hit the boy who had knelt down to get something from abox under the table and was inadvertantly in the line of fire. Even though the Paparmedics were "In House" ( they had stopped to see some of the show, and grabbed the boy up, they had to transport him across town to N. Miami's Jackson Mem Hosp. and he was D.O.A.

As my units Ord.Sgt. I see each member as they arrive at the event site and inspect their firearms as they unpack and set up their camp. I make sure no firearm is loaded and that there are no live ( powder and ball) cartridges in their packs or Ammo Box and no loose ball that could be loaded. I do a Formal inspection during the drill before the battles scenes and again after to be sure no charge is left unfired.

I see no reason this could not be done at a Gunshow during the set-up hours or at events as the unit members arrive and set up camp or at drill or even at Colors Assembly each morning, partricularly Sunday as a lot of reenactors do not arrive until after Colors on Saturday due to work and driving to the events.

Safety in our hobby and at Gunshows, is everyones concern and should be taken more seriously than it is at some of these events. If we do not "Police" ourselves, then others will and we will loose the right to have trhese events and in the case of a reenactment, loose the means to teach the truth about that period of our history

[Shortround]

The weapon was charged. When you put the cap on it then it became fully loaded.

It does make me wonder why you didn't drop a ram-rod in to the weapon at the show. I do that for every muzzle loader. I fully expect to hear that wonderful "ping" from the ram-rod hitting the breech base. I've been cursed by more than one vendor when the ram-rod gets stuck in the crud in the breech of the rifle.

Well, I suppose another law will fix the situation. We can't have enough laws, you know.

[PetePaolillo]

All Guns are loaded all of the time. People who do not treat them as such end up hurt, dead or do the same to others.

[dixieflyer]

All Guns are loaded all of the time. People who do not treat them as such end up hurt, dead or do the same to others.

That right there Plus, I am really discombobulated that you did not check the bore with a light and/or using the ramrod first thing, much less before laying out your money. I bought an M1816 back in '89 or '90 that had a load in it, but knew it was there when I bought it.
The dealer/seller is to be admonished for not taking care of this, or at least making you aware, BUT in my very humble opinion, this is something you should have been able to detect on the spot at the show before paying for the weapon as well.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

My question is "why on earth would you cap the weapon, pull back the hammer, and pull the trigger"? You treat every weapon as if it was loaded, particularly one that wasn't yours previously. Thats just as bad as buying the loaded gun in the first place. You NEVER cap a weapon prior to dropping a ramrod down, a borelight, or any other manner of checking the barrel. If that's how you inspect weapons traditionally, you need to be re-evaluated before checking anyone elses. Thats just as scary as buying a loaded weapon in the first place.

[fedpard24]

It does make me wonder why you didn't drop a ram-rod in to the weapon at the show. I do that for every muzzle loader. I fully expect to hear that wonderful "ping" from the ram-rod hitting the breech base. I've been cursed by more than one vendor when the ram-rod gets stuck in the crud in the breech of the rifle.

If the purchaser was buying a Hawken rifle it probably had a wooden ram rod on it. If he dropped it he would not get a ping. However there are plenty of other ways to check the firearm and several have been mentioned. You can never be too careful.

[Blair]

Sean,

You are correct about the wooden rod not pinging. Even with metal end pieces on the rod.

A number of folks forgot the fundamentals of firearms safety here. Forgotten or neglected by persons that should have known better in this case.
However, had someone been injured as a result... the fault would have been the person whom pulled the trigger!
There are NO "do overs" where firearms safety are concerned.

[Shortround]

It does make me wonder why you didn't drop a ram-rod in to the weapon at the show. I do that for every muzzle loader. I fully expect to hear that wonderful "ping" from the ram-rod hitting the breech base. I've been cursed by more than one vendor when the ram-rod gets stuck in the crud in the breech of the rifle.

If the purchaser was buying a Hawken rifle it probably had a wooden ram rod on it. If he dropped it he would not get a ping. However there are plenty of other ways to check the firearm and several have been mentioned. You can never be too careful.

Sean,

I've been handling firearms since 1973 and muskets/muzzle loaders since the 1976 reenactment time. Most Hawkins are either CVA or Tradition manufacture weapons and those have brass on the end of the ram rod. Indeed, they have brass at both ends on most models; one end is for ramming the round and the other usually threaded for a worm or a cleaning jag. Out of 100 weapons (I go to gun shows a lot) I might see three or four with purely wooden rammers and those weapons are usually the junk. Conversely, some of the CVA/Traditions stuff now has synthetic ramrods. It is beyond this poster why somebody wants a primitive ignition system and then mixes synthetic with it. But that might be a legal item, such as some states require primitive to be flintlocks.

Anyway, I would wager $100 against a beer that I could indeed take a wooden ramrood and determine if the bore was at least clear or obstructed. That is called knowing a weapon. If you can't take a wooden ram rod and hear that sharp "wack!" of wood against steel then why are you a muzzle loader? Also, why didn't the buyer take the nipple off the weapon and put a bore light into it? If you don't have a nipple wrench and a bore light then take the ram rod, put it againt the outside breech, then put the ram rod down the breech, and they better come out close in length. If you have an inch and a half of "unaccounted for" area of the breech, hand the rifle back to the vendor, and tell the organizers of the event that vendor has a charged weapon. The event organizers will take care of the offender.

[Forrestcavalryman]

Plus, if you suspected it of being fouled there's is a handy little tool called a co2 discharger. That would've been much safer/smarter than setting a cap on it.

[Jim Mayo]

At home I was doing so checking and minor cleaning and to check the cone (nipple) was clear, I capped it and pointed it at the ground. Imagine my shock and surprise when a loud BOOM issued from the bore with a flash of light and cloud of sulfure smoke.

Capping and firing a muzzle loader without verifying the barrel clear violates Basic Gun Safety 101. You were very lucky. Don't put the responsibility on the show promoters. Everyone who handles a gun has the responsibility to determine if it is safe. That is why you inspect firearms at a reenactment.

Buying a used muzzle loader with a load is not an uncommon occurence be it original or reproduction. Worming the load out adds some excitement to life. I bought a M-42 once with two complete loads. Found out it was bird shot when about a thousand little lead shot balls came out all over the garage floor.