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Thread: Hardee hat question

  1. #11

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    Hallo!

    As the phogrpahic record shows, there was the federal regulations (which changed a few times), and then there was what those pesky volunteers did for themselves.

    Here is a picture of my great-great grandfather, Andrew Miller, of Company "M" of the 12th PA Cavalry (flopped to correct the camera lens flop):



    CHS
    In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

    Not a real Civil War reenactor, I only portray one on boards and fora.
    I do not portray a Civil War soldier, I merely interpret one.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB1861 View Post
    Darrell, you're not quoting the full paragraph on page 481 of the revised US Army Regulations of August 1861 which references the Dress Hat only for Hospital Stewards...



    Now for all Enlisted men... the correct paragraph is the preceeding one 1488 which says it is the same for all enlistedmen as for the officers of their respective corps, except for companies of light artillery. And as you climb up the paragraphs to determine the correct side to be looped, you get to the General Officer description which identifies it should be looped on the right side.

    Now my interpretation is that line about the Hospital Steward's dress hat is a mistake left over from the previous regulations. The 1858 General Order that modified the 1857 Regulations have the same language and those regulations indicated footmen have the dress hat looped on the left side and mounted troops to have it looped on the right side. Those distinction were removed in the Revised 1861 regulations.

    I hope that helps, rather than muddles the waters further...
    So how would it be for light artillery? Left side up, if I interpret this properly.
    Den Bolda
    5th Minnesota Inf. Vols. Co. D.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 97th private View Post
    Your information is a little incomplete Rob. Please refer to the manual which I posted that shows the correct regulations. The August 1861 Revised Regulations of the US Army changed the side of the Dress Hat looped for Infantry from the left to the right. In fact the regulations have all corps and ranks loop the right side of their Dress Hats. A link to the August 1861 Regulations describing the Dress Hat is listed below.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=yQ1...page&q&f=false

    The 1857 Regulations had a revision called War Department General Order No. 3 of March 24, 1858, which stated that the Infantry was to loop their Dress Hats on the Left hand side. A copy of General Order #3 is available Here

    In closing Daniel, "doing whatever you feel like." does not make it correct. The plume did not go on the same side as the looped up side according to the regulations. I can not recall seeing any like that either. I am not saying there were not cases where that happened, but.... It should be done according to what that specific unit did at a specific time and place. Also when looking at photos do not be confused by reversed images etc.
    Pete,

    Thanks for the information. I did not mean to convey that I prefer doing what I feel like, but the hat that I ordered has the left brim turned up and the plume on that side, so I am left with a conundrum as far as bringing it into regulation. It's unfortunate that most sites that sell the hats set them up on the old regulation.
    Daniel Sauerwein

    Doctoral Student, Dept. of History
    University of North Dakota

    Creator
    Civil War History: The Blog Between the States


    Reenactor with:

    1st South Carolina Infantry, Co. H
    5th Minnesota Infantry, Co. D
    1st United States Volunteers, Co. F (Galvanized)-Frontier Army of the Dakota

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by 97th private View Post
    Your information is a little incomplete Rob. Please refer to the manual which I posted that shows the correct regulations. The August 1861 Revised Regulations of the US Army changed the side of the Dress Hat looped for Infantry from the left to the right. In fact the regulations have all corps and ranks loop the right side of their Dress Hats. A link to the August 1861 Regulations describing the Dress Hat is listed below.
    Jeez Double P you assume an awful lot here....

    1. How does this affect a Manassas portrayal?

    2. How does this affect a Wisconsin Infantry Regiment drilling under Chandler's Wisconsin State Militia manual (hing: Carry Arms, Load in 10 times, Castabout for fixing and unfixing bayonets) who trade in there Shako's and gray uniforms for an 1861 Regular Army dress uniform including Navy Blue trowsers?

    3. LoooTzse.... you got some Splaning todo.....PP, you do a great job of citing the published dates of the regulations and their revisions ....you do a terrible job of translating that into actual usage of either the manuals themselves or how they wore their hats in the field.

    In other words, the hats are un-uniformly pinned up (OR NOT!) in dozens if not hundreds of THOUSANDS of instances....your citings of manual and regulation passages notwithstanding.

    Having done Infantry with Scott's and Casey's...and Cavalry with Poinsett's/Cooke's...I can personally testify that pin it up on the left for Scott's older manuals (Chandler's\Baxter's\US I & RT) and on the right in all manuals is my personal experience best way to do it.....also if you are marching South in the morning pin up the right side, in the afternoon pin up the left side, and if it's raining stuff the pin and plume in your knapsack. Or simply do what they did....unpin the stupid thing until the unit poses for a picture or you are threatened with a deduction during pay call....then pin it back up per your 1st Sergeant's preference....
    RJ Samp
    Horniste! Blas das Signal zum Angriffe!
    "But in the end, it's the history, stupid. If you can't document it, forget about it. And no amount of 'tomfoolery' can explain away conduct that in the end makes history (and living historians) look stupid and wrong. "

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJSamp View Post
    3. LoooTzse.... you got some Splaning todo.....PP, you do a great job of citing the published dates of the regulations and their revisions ....you do a terrible job of translating that into actual usage of either the manuals themselves or how they wore their hats in the field.

    In other words, the hats are un-uniformly pinned up (OR NOT!) in dozens if not hundreds of THOUSANDS of instances....your citings of manual and regulation passages notwithstanding....
    Once again RJ, you should stick to bugling... The question was how it should be done. The correct answer is always in the US Army Regulations, no matter your personal bent to ignore and flaunt it.

    Now you want to talk about Company Q of the 200th Ohio, please feel free to talk about all the wild and crazy things caught in silver nitrate or written down by one of the real soldiers. And go ahead and be the one guy doing it at whatever event you happen to grace with your presence.

    There is the right way, the wrong way and the Army Way. Choosing the 'Army' way is always the correct answer.
    Your Obedient Servant,

    Peter M. Berezuk

    Proud Member of...
    69th NYSV Historical Association - USMC Historical Company - Washington Guard

    Builder and Maintainer of the Ray Prosteen Memorial Event Calendar

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viceroy View Post
    So how would it be for light artillery? Left side up, if I interpret this properly.
    Den, Going back to the 1861 Regulations it states....

    1491. For companies of Artillery equipped as Light Artillery, the old pattern uniform cap, with red horsehair plue, cord and tassel.
    The problem is the 1857 regulations are quite clear the difference between the Uniform 'Cap' and the 'Hat'. Reference paragraph 1416 on page 441 of the regulations here. Which describes in detail the stiffened uniform cap of the 1852 regulations with plumes, cords and tassels.

    Since I'm a foot soldier by trade, I'll leave you with the interpretation that when light Artillery was issued 'hats' they should have worn them looped on the right like all other enlisted men and than if they had the 'cap' designated by the regulations of 1861 that it would trimmed in accordance with the 1857 regulations.

    Now someone will come along and point out that the 21st Nevada Independent Horse Artillery "The Blackjacks" wore their dress hats sideways with it pinned up in front, which is awesome if you're portraying the "The Blackjacks" but doesn't matter a hill of beans to the question on how to interpret the Army Regulations as written.

    Good Luck...
    Your Obedient Servant,

    Peter M. Berezuk

    Proud Member of...
    69th NYSV Historical Association - USMC Historical Company - Washington Guard

    Builder and Maintainer of the Ray Prosteen Memorial Event Calendar

  7. #17
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    Jun 2011
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    Grand Forks, ND
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    Found this on Syke's Regulars website



    Also, this section of the site shows the hat constructed the same way mine is. Again, I want to be right, but can someone advise me whether these pictures are correct, and, if not, how I can fix my hat without damaging it.

    Thanks
    Daniel Sauerwein

    Doctoral Student, Dept. of History
    University of North Dakota

    Creator
    Civil War History: The Blog Between the States


    Reenactor with:

    1st South Carolina Infantry, Co. H
    5th Minnesota Infantry, Co. D
    1st United States Volunteers, Co. F (Galvanized)-Frontier Army of the Dakota

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by civwarhistory View Post
    Found this on Syke's Regulars website



    Also, this section of the site shows the hat constructed the same way mine is. Again, I want to be right, but can someone advise me whether these pictures are correct, and, if not, how I can fix my hat without damaging it.

    Thanks
    Daniel, if their portrayal is prior to August 1861 and the publishing of the revised regulations... then it is correct. If it is after August 1861, then it is not correct per the regulations. However as always there are examples of units not following the regulations, so ultimately you need to ask someone from Syke's Regulars what time period they are portraying because it does make a difference.

    The Regulations is the first the step, the second is research into a particular unit at a particular time, the third is doing what the commander asks you to do...

    I know that doesn't help much. As far has reblocking your dress hat... here is a thread with good advice for several methods to reblock a hat...

    http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/sh...ght=reblocking
    Your Obedient Servant,

    Peter M. Berezuk

    Proud Member of...
    69th NYSV Historical Association - USMC Historical Company - Washington Guard

    Builder and Maintainer of the Ray Prosteen Memorial Event Calendar

  9. #19

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    The 1861 regulations were spottily observed in the Iron Brigade, if at all. I have had trouble posting in this thread in the past. Something I say keeps booting me from the server. Shoot me an email for Iron Brigade Hardee Hat documentation.
    Rob Weaver
    Pine River Boys, Co I, 7th Wisconsin
    "We're... Christians, what read the Bible and foller what it says about lovin' your enemies and carin' for them what despitefully use you -- that is, after you've downed 'em good and hard."
    -Si Klegg and His Pard Shorty

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    97

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    Infantry really never wore Hardee hats with the exception of the Iron Brigade and some calvary units. It depends on what unit you are with. And yes, it was the soldiers desire on where the plume went. Unless your unit has a specific side they want it on.

    Happy Reenacting!

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