Authority of Line Officers vs. Support Staff

[Major Duane]

A question: Could line officers give orders to officers of engineers, ordnance, etc. that were not in their chain of command. For example, let's say a brigade commander was moving in line of attack to assault a hill. He sees a company of engineers to his left rear and sends a courier to order the company to support his assault. Would the enginner company commander be within his rights to refuse the order as he is not a line officer? Do orders have to come from the hq to which the engineers are attached--division, corps, etc. ?

Thanks,

John Adams

[indguard]

Any commander of rank could TRY to order anyone. It WAS an army built on rank, after all.

HOWEVER, it was not automatic that anyone would LISTEN and follow those orders.

there were many times throughout the war when one officer would refuse orders from another, even in the midst of a crisis, because that ordering officer was not "his" officer.

In fact, not even staff members of a general always had the power to make orders on the field. In a European style staff, the staff officers had the power and authority to order units on the field of battle because that staff officer would presumably have the power of the commanding general shoring him up.

But, in our civil war, staff work was NOT a universally organized position and this authority was different from one general's staff to another. Some of Grant's staff, for instance, had the authority to order units around on their own say so, but General Sherman NEVER allowed this to occur. Sherman personally directed every general officer under his command and never allowed his staff to step out and give orders unless Sherman had already issued that demand.

So, to answer your question, an officer can try to push his rank and order people that are not under his direct command. But that person or unit being ordered does NOT necessarily have to follow that order.

Further, such refusals of orders were almost never punished when those refusals came from one command to another one that is not attached to the first.

So, it's hit or miss. Sometimes it was tried and sometimes it was followed. Sometimes it was tried and then was refused.

This is not the concrete answer you probably wanted, but rank and command was a bit hard to pin down during our war when you mixed the regular army with state armies. Since there was no 100%, top down command structure, as there is in our armed forces now, there was more room to refuse orders.

Warner Todd Huston

[bill watson]

There were also other times when people did listen, did understand the situation and did respond, with great results. The number of times Union brigadiers moved their elements at Gettysburg in response to communications from knowledgeable staff officers or people from whom they were not required to take orders is pretty extensive, and had interesting results, including preservation of Little Round Top. It is not so much the brigadiers taking "orders" as it is them having confidence enough to move on their own initiative when situations were pointed out to them by people they respected. Combination of things going on there, including a growing confidence in their mastery of the art of war, a growing realization that failure to take initiative cost them battles they could have won (as recently as Chancellorsville) and growing confidence in each other.
So it's not a simple "who has to obey" kind of thing; it's a leadership function. More people were comfortable deciding "what's the right thing to do?" at Gettysburg, regardless of where information or suggestions were coming from. And it happened elsewhere. More important to do the right thing than to do things right, that is, more important to get the right result than fool around deciding who has the authority to give an order. Baddabing.
Give me a moment and I'll think who the officer was who re-directed troops to LIttle Round Top. It's not the name usually associated with it, but much lower ranking fellow. It's actually included in a modern leadership course taught at Gettysburg bya consulting firm, "leadership lessons of Gburg" or something.

[Sgt_Pepper]

Give me a moment and I'll think who the officer was who re-directed troops to Little Round Top. It's not the name usually associated with it, but much lower ranking fellow. It's actually included in a modern leadership course taught at Gettysburg by a consulting firm, "leadership lessons of Gburg" or something.

Chauncey B. Reese, Randal S. Mackenzie, and Washington Roebling were the three members of Warren's staff who accompanied him to the top of Little Round Top. It seems likely it was one of them who ran into Strong Vincent, who then took the initiative to move his troops onto the hill.

[bill watson]

Thank goodness for folks with better memories.

[ltkris81]

You will forgive me, sir. But this reminds me of the first battle at 145th Manassas. I was with Evan's Brigade and a general rode up and told our colonel to go support Jackson's right. Our colonel said no and the general reminded our colonel that he outranked him. Our colonel replied, "yes, but you are not MY general!!" and moved us to the rear left. We all thought it was planned until the general apoligized to the colonel. So I guess it happens in re-enacting too!!!

[bill watson]

Not sure why you need forgiveness....

It certainly happened during the war. It can happen among us, as well, and it can be a deliberate depiction of something that happened. Or it can be just people afraid to exercise initiative or being huffy.

Wouldn't it be nice to go to an event where it is a deliberate depiction -- say, any battle with Braxton Bragg -- rather than yet another reenactor fiefdom struggle?

[BobWerner]

Wouldn't it be nice to go to an event where it is a deliberate depiction -- say, any battle with Braxton Bragg -- rather than yet another reenactor fiefdom struggle?

Hey, now there's an idea. All you'd need is someone who kind'a, sort'a looked like Bragg and could. . . Wait a minute!!

How about it, Bill?

Have fun,

[flattop32355]

A question: Could line officers give orders to officers of engineers, ordnance, etc. that were not in their chain of command.

I believe you may be speaking more of field grade (Major to Colonel) officers or general officers than line officers (Lt. to Captain), although your intent comes through.

As has been stated, it would depend upon the personality of the officer asked, and his grasp of the situation. Even officers with the authority to order others would often couch their desires as requests.

Was it done? Absolutely. Was it refused? No doubt.

[bob 125th nysvi]

an officer could give orders to anyone he out ranked there were a lot of variables.

A colonel could give orders to a major not under his command but what if the major was already acting under orders from his own colonel or maybe a general. As the major which one do you obey? The last order given or the last order you received from someone with in your recognized chain of cammand? The last order given by the highest ranking officer?

Maybe you don't like the new orders given then you might fall back on previous instructions in order not to obey (and have a CYA).

Maybe what your being ordered to do right now makes more sense than what you were previously told to do (like don't charge that entrenchment, entrench yourself right here).

So the theory is you can order anybody below you around.

Whether or not they follow your orders depends a lot on what type of officers you both are and how well you explain the situation. Obviously in the case of Warren and Vincent. Warren (or his staffers) said something compelling enough to comvince Vincent that following their orders was the correct course of action.

There is of course the opposite case of slavishly following orders like at Chickamauga when Buell ordered one of his divisions (Wood's I think) out of line to cover a non-existent gap in the line. The division commander knew it didn't make military sense but since Buell had already ripped the guy a new one because he didn't follow a previously given order correctly he just did as he was told and Longstreet smashed right into the open gap. Technically the officer did the right thing by obeying an order given from an officer directly in his chain of command, militarily it was stupid.

Stupid officers and commands lose battles and wars.

Smart ones win them.

Knowing which orders to follow no matter who gives them can sort between the two.

Bob Sandusky
Co C 125th NYSVI
Esperance, NY