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Thread: Ctg Box ID Help

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Default Ctg Box ID Help

    Hallo the Board!
    This box is the primary item was asking for assistance with when I cleverly discovered that I was allowed only four images in my previous message and so edited to two posts.

    The cased ammunition cartridge box, manufactured at Watervliet Arsenal, holds 16 rounds of cased ammunition ( 0.50"+) and has a stamp under the word 'Arsenal' that appears to be A. R. SMITH, in a much finer font, same height, with no other date, makers marks or initials apparent. (Please disregard the modern 45-110 cased ammunition used to hold the flap open for photos.)

    (Thumbnails are photobucket links to larger images)







    Any information you may have would be a great help for the curator of this collection and for me. Thank you for your time.

    Very respectfully,

    Will Abbot
    Historic Arms Demonstrator,
    Photographer
    Nevada City Living History Museum, Nevada City, Montana Territory
    Last edited by Walt-MT; 10-22-2009 at 07:40 PM. Reason: correct links
    The Ram Mountain Armorer - Cartridge Tubes Extraodinaire

    “It's a good thing we don't get all the government we pay for” -Will Rogers

    "Always tell the truth; then you don't have to remember anything. " -Mark Twain

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    1,134

    Default

    I think A. R. Smith was an Indian Wars era contract maker (not sure if they were a CW maker, but I know they were an IW maker). That is likely an 1870s or 80s carbine cartridge box piece in my opinion.
    Last edited by indguard; 10-23-2009 at 05:40 PM.
    Yuma gonna luv it

  3. #3
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    Default

    Carbine box for the 1873 Springfield (trapdoor). The blocks should hold .45-70 ammunition. It is indeed an Indian Wars item...
    Ross Lamoreaux
    Moderator and Sewer of Historical Clothing and Tall Tales

    "But our opportunity to learn and grow, to communicate the richness of the lives that have gone before us, that does not change. We do not outgrow it. It does not tatter and fall apart in our hands..." -Mrs. Terre Lawson, 2010

  4. #4
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    Default

    Messr's Lamoreaux and indguard,

    Thank you for the help and confirming what I expected. Not having units or more knowledgeable pards make it hard to confirm things, locally, when folks are asking me for assistance.

    Will Abbot
    Less Ignarn't in Montana

  5. #5
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    Default

    They were replaced rather rapidly with webbed cotton belts with loops (Mills belt, etc) since the greater need to keep paper cartridges dry was done away with through the use of metallic cartridges. Your box isn't necessarily rare, but because its use was only for a smaller period of time versus the 1839 cartridge box (or its other variants like the 61, etc), there weren't too many used after 1877 or so. I have found, however, a couple of surprising images showing their use by state volunteer troops in the Spanish American War (189 , but probably due to lack of supply of the proper blue or khaki webbed cartridge belts for units preparing to go to Cuba.
    Ross Lamoreaux
    Moderator and Sewer of Historical Clothing and Tall Tales

    "But our opportunity to learn and grow, to communicate the richness of the lives that have gone before us, that does not change. We do not outgrow it. It does not tatter and fall apart in our hands..." -Mrs. Terre Lawson, 2010

  6. #6
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    Sep 2008
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    Default

    Thanks Ross,

    "They were replaced rather rapidly with webbed cotton belts with loops (Mills belt, etc) ..."

    Was this, then, a precursor of the McKeever belt box (held 20 rnds. 45-70 with internal webbing) or possibly earlier for 50-70 ? I can't find reference to a box used between the "paper ctg" era boxes and the McKeever type.

    Respectfully,
    Will A
    The Ram Mountain Armorer - Cartridge Tubes Extraodinaire

    “It's a good thing we don't get all the government we pay for” -Will Rogers

    "Always tell the truth; then you don't have to remember anything. " -Mark Twain

  7. #7
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    Default

    Yes indeed, your box was pre-McKeever, in fact yours may have been a retrofitted carbine box from the CW, as there were several hundred carbine boxes of an undetermined type which had tins removed and wooden blocks put in, probably as a stop-gap waiting on production of proper boxes for the 1873 Springfields. The retrofitted boxes were shipped west to the 7th Cavalry and later the 9th and 10th. I've found no record when they were replaced with either McKeever or other type boxes.
    Ross Lamoreaux
    Moderator and Sewer of Historical Clothing and Tall Tales

    "But our opportunity to learn and grow, to communicate the richness of the lives that have gone before us, that does not change. We do not outgrow it. It does not tatter and fall apart in our hands..." -Mrs. Terre Lawson, 2010

  8. #8
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    This is the 50-70 cartridge box developed for the M-1870 model trapdoor Springfield. The 16 whole wood block would indicate it was set up specifically for the Carbine.
    Randy Steffen's book "The House Soldier 1776-1943", Volume II Which covers The Frontier, Mexican War, Civil War, Indian Wars, from roughly 1851 to 1880 will have the written secification for this box along with the M-1870 Springfield Carbine in Chapter Nine, "The Troubled Postwar Years 1866-1871".

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Default Ah-Ha!

    Eureka!!
    Many, many thanks sir... I appreciate your valuable input and a pointer to a new (to me) reference source!
    Hopefully, this information will be in the curators hands along with photos by mid-week, along with other images of their collection.

    "... 50-70 cartridge box developed for the M-1870 model trapdoor Springfield. The 16 whole wood block would indicate it was set up specifically for the Carbine."

    I feel privileged to help improve accuracy in education and interpretation. You help keep it so.

    I remain, sir, your humble servant,
    Will Abbot
    The Ram Mountain Armorer - Cartridge Tubes Extraodinaire

    “It's a good thing we don't get all the government we pay for” -Will Rogers

    "Always tell the truth; then you don't have to remember anything. " -Mark Twain

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