Whose skirmishers are whose?

[GrumpyDave]

Bernie, don't do it. You can't find historical documentation for 'renacterisms.


Back to the cat herd.

[Mint Julep]

Too many units do not realize that once deployed as skirmishers each cell commander usually an NCO takes over and the cell works independently firing and moving as directed. I laugh when I see the whole skirmish line advance at once that would be slaughter it is the basic fire and movement! Some units need to train their NCO's in tactics and stop promoting people to make them happy because they are power hungry! (different topic all together!)

Drew,

What drill manual are you using?

The line should advance, retreat, fire and cease fire as one. Skirmishers can even be wheeled in line.

If I found an NCO giving conflicting commands on the skirmish line I commanded, he might not be an NCO anymore.

The tactics of the day did permit a lot of independent thought. The commanding officer used the bugle to control his skirmishers to do what he wanted, not what they wanted. If the NCOs on the ground are making decisions, how do they know what is desired of them or what is going on with the other end of the brigade skirmish line? I have been on several skirmish lines where I could not see the other end of the line and could only dress on the line and move with them.

[bob 125th nysvi]

Drew,

What drill manual are you using?

The line should advance, retreat, fire and cease fire as one. Skirmishers can even be wheeled in line.

If I found an NCO giving conflicting commands on the skirmish line I commanded, he might not be an NCO anymore.

The tactics of the day did permit a lot of independent thought. The commanding officer used the bugle to control his skirmishers to do what he wanted, not what they wanted. If the NCOs on the ground are making decisions, how do they know what is desired of them or what is going on with the other end of the brigade skirmish line? I have been on several skirmish lines where I could not see the other end of the line and could only dress on the line and move with them.

I think you jumped the gun a little on this one.

Yes advance and retreat and even direction was the responsibility of the officer in charge of the unit but a skirmish line 50-100 yards out is really beyond his control in the sense that he could control a company in line.

However NCOs in charge of cells were expected to make command decisions with in their immediate sphere of influence.

Thus in moving forward the NCO would indicate how far he wanted his men spread out. When to conduct a tactical retreat (or advance) based on the situation in front of him (and without direct orders to the contrary) and when to send someone back with intelligence for his superiors.

You try to micro-manage at that distance and in the REAL CW army you wouldn't have your command for very long.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

In my heresies...

In brief and to over-generalize...

When a company is deployed forward or by the flank as skirmishers in front of a battalion, the direction is from the captain, over the two platoons in order to have the ability to move them "in any direction with the greatest prompitude."

However, the captain commands the movements after the deployment, the 1st and 3nd lieutenants with a bugler each (to repeat the captain's commands) can, with the sergeants, coordinate the two platoons and four sections.

When a battalion is deployed as skirmishers, the colonel will have "a general superintendence of the movement" with the major in command of the skirmish reserve, and the Lt. Colonel and Adjutant follow the deployment on the right and left, before falling back to the Colonel when the deployment is finished.

If during the deployment, the skirmishers are fired upon by the enemy, the captain has the ability to have the groups of four deploy as they gain proper distance.

Once deployed, the chiefs of sections position themselves 25 or 30 paces in the rear of the center of their sections. The captain, his bugler, and four bodyguards form the reserve are 80 paces behind the center of the line.

The only latitude lies in the men's ability to carry their arms and shoot them in a manner "most convenient" to them as the officers and NCO's see to it that the men economize effort, and take advantage of the terrain.

IMHO, NUG, "skirmishers" are often a handful or two of "dismounted cavalry" and unattached unit-less men, Sharpshooters, etc., with little or no knowledge or experience or desire in skirmish drill at the company level and so basically run out and sometimes pair off (or not) and leap-frog (or not) forward and back until the battle line of the enemy who has been ignoring them advances and starts the Ball.

IMHO, and bias, the highlight of my reenacting "career" was in command of the Confederate skirmish line under General King, at a Wilderness, as a battalion deployed as a skirmish line by the bugle.
The trees, ground clutter, and terrain made the skirmish line too long to see either end from the center, and difficult for mounted field officers and couriers to get through the wilderness- let alone the competition of several bugles on the left, center, and right.
And the CW experience of advancing a battalion-sized skirmish line to find and locate the Federals "out there somewhere" without knowing where they were or what part of the line one would find and where (or not) not being able to see more than a few dozen feet or so at a time.
Having found the Federal lines, the main Confederate lines advanced and attacked in, around, and through us as we fell back in the thickets and trees- making it impossible to assemble on the reserve and then take a place in the column at the rear of the companies ahead of us (as the attack was in progress and the formations lost in the wilderness).

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS

[bob 125th nysvi]

IMHO, and bias, the highlight of my reenacting "career" was in command of the Confederate skirmish line under General King, at a Wilderness, as a battalion deployed as a skirmish line by the bugle.
The trees, ground clutter, and terrain made the skirmish line too long to see either end from the center, and difficult for mounted field officers and couriers to get through the wilderness- let alone the competition of several bugles on the left, center, and right.
And the CW experience of advancing a battalion-sized skirmish line to find and locate the Federals "out there somewhere" without knowing where they were or what part of the line one would find and where (or not) not being able to see more than a few dozen feet or so at a time.
Having found the Federal lines, the main Confederate lines advanced and attacked in, around, and through us as we fell back in the thickets and trees- making it impossible to assemble on the reserve and then take a place in the column at the rear of the companies ahead of us (as the attack was in progress and the formations lost in the wilderness).

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS

Don't you think that happened quite often in real life too. Seems to me there was this whole major engagement called the Wilderness that just turned into a company/regimental fur ball no matter what the Brigade/Division/Corp commanders tried. And I'm fairly sure I remember a number of the line officers complaining after the fact that they couldn't control their men because they just disappeared into the woods around them.

Like them if we did it more, eventually we'd learn to do it right despite the confusion.

[7thNJcoA]

Drew,

What drill manual are you using?

The line should advance, retreat, fire and cease fire as one. Skirmishers can even be wheeled in line.

If I found an NCO giving conflicting commands on the skirmish line I commanded, he might not be an NCO anymore.

The tactics of the day did permit a lot of independent thought. The commanding officer used the bugle to control his skirmishers to do what he wanted, not what they wanted. If the NCOs on the ground are making decisions, how do they know what is desired of them or what is going on with the other end of the brigade skirmish line? I have been on several skirmish lines where I could not see the other end of the line and could only dress on the line and move with them.

Obviously not the same Hardees you are using maybe I got the bad one in the lot If I am wrong please correct me here asided from the forward, retreat movements how can the CPT control each individual cell? If I am wrong please tell me know how...

[flattop32355]

...asided from the forward, retreat movements how can the CPT control each individual cell?

If by "cell" you mean each set of Comrades In Arms = four men working together and in pairs, the commander of the skirmish line controls a lot.

He controls forward, backward, lateral and wheeling movements.
He controls when to fire and when to cease fire.
He controls how long the skirmish line is.
He controls deploying and consolidatiing the line.
He controls reenforcement of the line and replacement of casualties.
He controls defence against cavalry attack on the skirmish line.

His overall job is to oversee the entire skirmish line, as much as terrain and weather permits, and to use it to maximum effect. His orders are sent down the chain of command to be carried out by groups of two and four men working in concert to carry out his orders, under the supervision of NCO's familiar with the commanders orders.

Those Comrades In Arms/"cells" are not independent entities on the skirmish line; they are knit together by the direction of the commmander of the line, acting independently only within the confines of the orders given.

[Mint Julep]

Obviously not the same Hardees you are using maybe I got the bad one in the lot If I am wrong please correct me here asided from the forward, retreat movements how can the CPT control each individual cell? If I am wrong please tell me know how...

Well, obvioulsy not, because my Hardee's does not describe a "cell". It also does not say anywhere that an NCO may take charge of his cell and move it willy-nilly.

Halt.

78. At this command, briskly repeated, the line will halt. The chiefs of sections will promptly rectify any irregularity in the alignment and intervals, and after taking every possible advantage which the ground may offer for protecting the men, they, with the three sergeants in the line, will retire to their proper places in rear.

Now, does that sound like an NCO is advancing or retreating without regard or reference to the rest of the company? No, the section is aligned on the guides (the sergeants) with allowances for taking cover where available. Taking cover does not mean advancing out of line, though.

And that is just where the book opened (it happened to be bookmarked at the skirmish drill).

The capt maintains control and alignment through his sergeants and corporals. He tells them what to do. If he is out of voice range, he uses the bugle. I have manuevered by the bugle in skirmish order during battle when we could not hear orders and during demonstrations when we advanced over a ridge and out of sight of the commanding officer, who stood calmly before the crowd giving commands to his bugler.

I have been doing skirmish drill since 1980 and have given instruction in it for most of those intervening years and have never heard anyone suggest what you have.

Now, I'll repeat one of my favorite primary accounts from Yankee Tigers, by Ralsa Rice: He was told to move his company in skirmish order across an open field and hold a tree line on the opposite side. The firing was heavy across the field. Rice asked the commanding officer if he was required to move the company as per the drill manual or if he could do it on his hook. He was told the objective was the tree line, whatever it took. Rice huddled up his company, pointed out the treeline, told them it was every man for himself ... "GO!" and the entire company dashed pellmell across the field. They made it with no problems.

So, by the book isn't always the right way. But an NCO doesn't command until everyone above him is dead.

[Rob Weaver]

People have mentioned a couple things that contribute to bad reenactor skirmishing: Lack of knowledge of how and why to do it. Once you've fixed the enemy, it's time to get out! The commander above has to know when to sound "rally." Reenactor skirmishers stay too long. Perhaps because their impact is ignored. Nobody wants to die early in and engagement to the shot of a single picket.
I think the need to put on a "show" affects us more than we think. We're not trying to stay alive and defeat an enemy, we're trying to demonstrate something. Individual reenactors want trigger time; the public wants to see a show; even at non-spectator events we're still trying to put on a good show for each other. Banging away at an enemy you can barely see for a few minutes, to be recalled, marched off and lie in rifle pits for the rest of the day doesn't sound too appealing to most of us. We also have the restriction that the fight can't boil over into the next farm or there will be blood if not lawsuits. So we figure out how to put on a "show" on a "stage" that satisfies all participants. Except the ones that have a sneaking feeling it didn't look like that.
I remember a Cedar Creek a number of years ago, when we advanced past the Heater house with skirmishers 30 yards or so in front. The entire battalion crested the little hill and there were a million Confederates in front of us. The skirmishers were well deployed and the skirmish line well run, but as the wag next to me remarked: "What do you need em for? The Rebs are right there." And they were. And the skirmishers gave us no early warning or buffer because they were, in essence, our first line. That's the day the light bulb went on over my head...

[7thNJcoA]

I must clear up that the term cell doesnt appear in any manual nor did I say it does it is just an easier way for me to describe the groups of four men. I apologize for any confusion there but still do you think the CPT can control the movements of all men from behind the line in the center when you have a large body deployed as skirmishers. Personally when It comes to tactics it is easier to see it done and see the correct way of doing it rather than reading books unfortunately we do not have that advantage anymore...