Repeaters at Bummers Event

[MarkTK36thIL]

Mind those that haven't been paying attention to the Bummers event, or any type of event that is non-spectator, foraging parties are limited to 25 men. Not exactly a large number -but is the size an entire company by 1864.

HUh? Is this the new double speak for: "if they had it they would have used it."

Sure could be, but at least there's justification for use from being available during the war unlike stainless steel widget, cooler, etc that some people can not forego without at XYZ event.

I've been trying to get the figures of Henrys/Spencer rifles produced per year, not just the overall approximate number to generate my interest of obtaining a spencer/henry for the Bummers event. However, let's just say (for the sake of argument) that only 8,000 spencer rifles were produced by late '64 in time for Sherman's March -where did those 8,000 go? If most were bought up by the states/government and not readily available for individual purchase, I'll leave the check book at home and forego on buying a spencer. Likewise for the Henry. I would love to see a list of units that had them, when they had them, and the numbers if possible (maybe someone has it stashed away in some old research drawer).

Silas, I would really enjoy seeing a Zouve impression done correctly and in force. Question being, if any EBUFU event did call for a Zouve impression -would they come?

[Tiger_rifles]

It is always good to find out new information. I am indeed willing to learn and absorb any new information concerning the Henry rifle or anything else.
"Education can cure most prejudices, but not all" It is good saying for all of us, even me.

http://44henryrifle.webs.com/index.htm
http://www.rarewinchesters.com/artic...t_hen_00.shtml

You are 100% correct, the problem I have found is the information I recieve is often not what I wanted to hear. 6 months ago, I was looking for a new custom musket to build and thought I found it in the "Todd". Posted on this site and found out the "Todd" was a one-of a kind, never produced musket. Now if you go back and read the first few posts of this thread you wil see how most feel about Henry Rifles. They are compaired to Leopard skin pants, Seige Artillery, Marines, city hospital workers, etc..... They have thier place in history but it is very limited. And other posts have hinted as to how all these Henry's/spencers may destroy a good event. I know many that wanted to attend Bummers as CS troops, but are unwilling to follow the rules,( Mdl 1842, hunting rifle, or shotgun), and be blasted away at by Yanks with Henry's and Spencers,(as it seems from this forum and another that more Yanks will have these repeaters than not!). It also appears that they have no intention of following the "50 rounds per man" guideline.
Maybe......jusy maybe this is why there are three times as many Yanks registered as there are Rebs!

[paul hadley]

... They have thier place in history but it is very limited. And other posts have hinted as to how all these Henry's/spencers may destroy a good event. I know many that wanted to attend Bummers as CS troops, but are unwilling to follow the rules,( Mdl 1842, hunting rifle, or shotgun), and be blasted away at by Yanks with Henry's and Spencers,(as it seems from this forum and another that more Yanks will have these repeaters than not!). It also appears that they have no intention of following the "50 rounds per man" guideline.
Maybe......jusy maybe this is why there are three times as many Yanks registered as there are Rebs!

Friends, I definitely agree that we should strive to present history as it happened, not as we wished it had happened.

But appararently there's a misinterpretation of this EFUBU known as the "Bummers March." The threads I've been following say IMHO that they are trying to follow the correct proportion of repeating arms to single shot long arms as would have been found in the 1864 regiments to be represented. For example, originally one of the companies planned to have every man firing a Henry; that since has been modified.

I'm registered for one of the largest groups and as far as I can tell, none of us will have a repeating weapon because none/few from that regiment did in late 1864.

Although many of us would enjoy owning/using a reproduction Henry or Spencer, I can see no way that even half of the federals on the line will have them in Georgia. Exceeding a maximum of 50 rounds per man? I'll recheck the regs late this summer and plan to come with the preferred amount.

To paraphrase the late Chawls, "I plan to have fun in as period correct a way as possible. How 'bout you."

Respectfully,
Paul

[Tiger_rifles]

First, have you ever tried to load and fire 3 rounds a minute.
I know that as a commander of a Henry equipped unit, I would wait for my opponent to close within 50 or so feet before opening up with my men firing as fast as they could.
I seriously doubt that very many attacking formations would still be intact and advancing at the end when my men had to start reloading.
(you ever seen formations duck when the other side comes to the aim for a volley).
Once a repeater unit to your front opens up, the fire will be almost continuous rather than a series of distinct volleys. Trust me, there would have been a difference.

Thank you Heer Schmidt, I could not have said it better if I tried!

But Mr. Pritchett.... here we go again saying things like "I seriously doubt" and "Trust me," giving our 21 Cent. opinions w/o and 19th facts, figures, or consideration. Also, I don't think I ever saw the above mentioned tactic in Hardies or Casey's? And as for "Ducking" the in-coming rounds, what do you do with "Fire by Files", "Rank Fire", or "Fire at Will"? If we start using 20th Cent. tactics at an 19th Cent Battle then we are nolonger porpraying any thing or respecting the honor of anyone......we are just playing paintball!
So lets all go back to cutting the back pockets off our jeans and all the Yanks can have Henry's and Winchesters, all the Rebs can have Shotguns, and we all can be "Dis-Mounted Cav." !

On a second note, why is it assumed that only a small number of musket rounds fired are hits, but that every time a Henry is fired a Reb should go down? I was a Police Officer for 10 years until an eye injury took me out. I was directly involved, (I was there or investigated), in 3 seperate shootouts, all 3 took place within 2 feet to 10 feet distance, involving one Officer and one Defendant, or 2 Officers and one Defendant. Both sides fired atleast 10 rounds and on one case 38 rounds were exchanged! In ALL of these shootouts NO ONE WAS HIT! NOT EVEN ONE ROUND! (One Officer got his Radio shot off and a Defendent had 3 bullet holes in his coat, but NO hits!). Good friend of mine, Fire Arms Instructor, 12 years Expert shot with every weapon in the Dept., got in a shootout across the hood of his patrol car, 27 rounds fired, when the defendants gun ran dry,(13 shot S&W), my buddy had one round left and the other guy surrendered. Another buddy of mine was walking up to a house,(about 20 foot distance), man stepped out and began shooting at him with a 9mm, my buddy pulled his 357 revolver and dropped the defendant with one shot thru the hips.
So don't try and tell me that "Spray and Pray" works, when facing a well trained Soldier that knows how to use his weapon.

Yes! Henry's can be used to great affect. Yes! SHermans army had Henry's in 1864. But not HALF his Army! And this is how "Bummers" is panning out to be. So you take this great idea of a re-creation of Shermans Army in Georgia and the Georgia Militia trying to stop them. But you bastard up all that "HISTORY" has told us by telling the Rebs they must have smoothbores and 50 rounds only, when the Yanks will be mostly armed with Henry's and Spencer's, and (from what I have heard), told to bring atleast 400 to 500 rounds EACH!

Sorry, I see no reason to go that far and take out my best CS Kit, so you can play "Vietnam Ambush"! All Weekend!

[Tiger_rifles]

Friends, I definitely agree that we should strive to present history as it happened, not as we wished it had happened.

*Mr. Hadley, I do see what you mean, it seems to make sense, but the best layed plans of mice and men.....*

But appararently there's a misinterpretation of this EFUBU known as the "Bummers March." The threads I've been following say IMHO that they are trying to follow the correct proportion of repeating arms to single shot long arms as would have been found in the 1864 regiments to be represented.

* I think it has been made clear in this post that no one really knows how many Henry's or Spencer's Sherman had with him. So how can you make it "the correct proportion" if you do not know how many there were?*

For example, originally one of the companies planned to have every man firing a Henry; that since has been modified.

*How many times have you been to an event were all the Rebs were told to have one or two types of arms..... but there are Enfields everywhere! I am sure there will be more Henry's there than register that way.*

I'm registered for one of the largest groups and as far as I can tell, none of us will have a repeating weapon because none/few from that regiment did in late 1864.

*Good for you! But how can you tell?*

Although many of us would enjoy owning/using a reproduction Henry or Spencer, I can see no way that even half of the federals on the line will have them in Georgia. Exceeding a maximum of 50 rounds per man? I'll recheck the regs late this summer and plan to come with the preferred amount.

*I'm sure you will, but with whole companies of Henry's and they being called "Foragers", I would say they are going to be up front, making first contact with the Rebs. And trying to fight off Henry's, how long is that 50 rounds going to hold out? So then what happens when the Rebs 50 rounds are gone and Shermans Infantry has not even seen a Reb?*

To paraphrase the late Chawls, "I plan to have fun in as period correct a way as possible. How 'bout you."

*None of this sounds "period correct" to me!*

Respectfully,
Paul

Respectfully Submitted,

[hanktrent]

Yes! SHermans army had Henry's in 1864. But not HALF his Army! And this is how "Bummers" is panning out to be. So you take this great idea of a re-creation of Shermans Army in Georgia and the Georgia Militia trying to stop them. But you bastard up all that "HISTORY" has told us by telling the Rebs they must have smoothbores and 50 rounds only, when the Yanks will be mostly armed with Henry's and Spencer's, and (from what I have heard), told to bring atleast 400 to 500 rounds EACH!

This question is going to sound really strange, considering that I'm attending Bummers and you'd think I'd know the answer, but I've only really researched the small corner of my own impression.

Is Bummers being presented as a representative sample of all of Sherman's march? In other words, if, I dunno, 1% of all of Sherman's men had Henrys, then only 1% of the reenactors should have them?

Or is it being presented as a clash between a few specific regiments? In other words, if 50% of the Massachusetts Invincibles had Henrys when they fought the 999th Georgia Militia's smoothbores, then 50% of the men in that regiment should have Henrys.

If it's the latter, then I think it's a perfect example of how Henrys or any other unusual impression can be integrated into reenactments, while preserving their historic context. An unusual impression is no longer unusual, if you're reenacting a specific situation where it was common.

Sorry, I see no reason to go that far and take out my best CS Kit, so you can play "Vietnam Ambush"! All Weekend!

You oughta try being a civilian! At most events, we show up to be stolen from, threatened, chased, insulted, with no chance of ever having the upper hand. A man can at least decide to switch to military and pick the winning side for an event if he gets tired of it, but women are stuck, and the most they can hope for, if they don't want to be on the losing end, are non-combat or homefront events.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[PetePaolillo]

Yes! Henry's can be used to great affect. Yes! SHermans army had Henry's in 1864. But not HALF his Army! And this is how "Bummers" is panning out to be. So you take this great idea of a re-creation of Shermans Army in Georgia and the Georgia Militia trying to stop them. But you bastard up all that "HISTORY" has told us by telling the Rebs they must have smoothbores and 50 rounds only, when the Yanks will be mostly armed with Henry's and Spencer's, and (from what I have heard), told to bring atleast 400 to 500 rounds EACH!

Sorry, I see no reason to go that far and take out my best CS Kit, so you can play "Vietnam Ambush"! All Weekend!

I notice you are discussing an event that you are not even registered to go to...I would like you to view the Federal and Confederate equipment guidelines for the event as it pertains to the weapons. Henry repeating rifles are third on the Federals list which means the other two are preferred first. The Federals will be mostly carrying muskets my friend. I am bringing my Enfield and 50 rounds. No more!!! Confederates have a larger choice than you claim as well. Not sure where you are getting your info but you are wrong....So sign up so you cornfeds can at least have a shot at making some foragers lives miserable!!!Just like history showed...In case you are a litlle foggy on what happened during Shermans March, Here is a great reading list for you to consider.

1) Burge, Dolly Lunt (Author) and Carter, Christine Jacobson (Editor). The Diary of Dolly Lunt Burge 1848-1879. Athens, Georgia: University of Georgia Press, May 1997.
2) Glatthaar, Joseph, T. The March to the Sea and Beyond. New York, New York: New York University Press, 1985. LSU Press Edition (Paperback) Published by LSU Press, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 1995.
3) Hitchcock, Henry. Marching With Sherman. New Haven, Connecticut: Yale University Press, 1927. Reprinted - First Bison Book Printing by the University of Nebraska Press, 1995.
4) Scaife, William R. and Bragg, William H. Joe Brown's Pets: The Georgia Militia, 1862–1865. Macon, Georgia: Mercer University Press, 2004.
5) Sherman, William Tecumseh. Memoirs of William Tecumseh Sherman. New York, New York: Appleton Press, 1875. Reprinted - New York, New York: Da Capo Press, Inc. 1984 (With New Introduction By William S. McFeely).
6) War Department, U.S. Record & Pension Office. War Records Office, et al. The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies - Series One - Volume 44. Washington DC: Government Printing Office, 1893. Click Here to Visit Full On-Line Version.

Federal Guidlines

CARTRIDGE BOX: Bring 50 Rounds Please -

Must Have Tins. Correct Period Construction US Issue .58 or .69 Caliber Box with US Box Plate, Sling and U.S. Breast Plate.

CAP POUCH: Bring 60 Caps Please -
Must Have Wool Liner. 1) U.S. M 1850. 2) U.S. Shield Front.

WAISTBELT:
1) Late War Leather Belt with Brass Keeper Strongly Preferred. or 2) Early War Leather Belt with Leather Loop. Blackened Buff Acceptable But Not Required. U.S. Issue Belt Plate: Puppy Paws Under the "S" Are Preferred.

FIREARM
(We Strongly Encourage Weapons That Have All Modern Markings Removed). 1) M1853 Enfield. 2) M1861 Springfield. 3) Henry Repeating Rifles. Appropriate Rifle Sling (Optional). No 2-Banded Weapons.

Confederate guidelines
FIREARM: (BRING 50 ROUNDS & 60 CAPS) 1) Citizen-Style Shotguns or Citizen Hunting Rifles. 2) '42 Springfield. 3) P53 Enfield. 4) Austrian Lorenz. Bayonets Are Optional.

http://www.bummers09.com/Guidelines.html

[Blair]

Two band Rifles with 33 inch barrels, a standard Infantry Skirmishing firearm are not allowed?
Is this due to the age old issue of the shorter barrel length is unsafe?
How is it then that the 24 inch barrel length of the Henry is safe as an Infantry firearm?
Or the unknown barrel length of civilian shot guns and sporting rifles that are being allowed for the Confederate forces.
This is sounding curiouser and curiouser the more I here about it.

[PetePaolillo]

Two band Rifles with 33 inch barrels, a standard Infantry Skirmishing firearm are not allowed?
Is this due to the age old issue of the shorter barrel length is unsafe?
How is it then that the 24 inch barrel length of the Henry is safe as an Infantry firearm?
Or the unknown barrel length of civilian shot guns and sporting rifles that are being allowed for the Confederate forces.
This is sounding curiouser and curiouser the more I here about it.

Curiouser?? Blair Blair Blair

[Blair]

Hay Pete, My spell check recognized it. What more can I say