Camp Manners

[MStuart]

For those of us "mainstreamers".....Here's the setting: (and let's not let this devolve into an "it just wouldn't happen" thing.....I know 99% of the time civilians wouldn't be in camp) But you have an army garrison "camp" such as winter quarters or an occupied town/area. Civilian ladies visit the camps (i.e. a mainstream event). What should the soldiers do to maintain the manners and decorum of the day?

If the lady is in close proximity to a particular "mess" of men, should the soldiers always have a vest on if not wearing their uniform jackets?

Should the soldiers always wear their hats when the lady is present? And here's my particular ignorance........when greeting a lady and "tipping" the hat, is the hat just touched, or should it be completely lifted from the head, and, how far?

How should they address the lady? For instance, if it was my wife, would it be appropriate to address her as "Mrs. Stuart" (formal) or the informal "Miss Wanda"? Would it be any different if she was a "laundress" who was in the camp often, or, just an infrequent visitor? How should the other soldiers of our "mess" address her?

Mainstream events sometimes are called "family camping". But be that as it may, we might as well kick it up a notch with the etiquette IMHO. Just what should or shouldn't a man do with ladies in the camp area?

There's been some good links posted, along with the Godey's publications, but the one's I've seen usually cover the "civilian" type settings of dinner manners and such. Lot's of spectaters come through the camps and it would be an added "plus" to have the appropriate decorum whilst they're there.

Any and all help is appreciated.

Mark

[bizzilizzit]

Here's my two cents Mark:

Gentlemen wearing only their shirts (and pants) in camp is equivalent to wearing just their underwear in public. If a lady is in camp, and I underline LADY, put on your vest AND jacket.

Hats in public are correct for both ladies and gentlemen. A man should not tip or just touch his hat to a lady - it is considered an insult. Like being too lazy to actually take it off. You can either just lift it or make a bow with it. Either is proper when being introduced to or welcoming a visitor. It is improper behavior to introduce yourself to a lady. Quite a vulgar move, indeed. If you pass a lady you do not know at an event, ignore her. Unless she is in need of your help (too many packages or she falls in the mud) tipping your hat, saying hello, or even a smile could put you in the provost's care for assault. She needs to make the first move. If she acknowledges you, then do the same in kind. I know this is considered rude in out times, but it is proper behavior between two strangers of the 19th century.

A Mrs. is NEVER addressed as a Miss. Another insult. She's married, and most likely darn proud of it. Address her so. A Miss Wanda is ok for a young unmarried lady. An older unmarried lady would be Miss Topping. Unless you are family or intimate friends, do not use a married or older unmarried lady's first name. If the laundress is legit, address her as above. If it's some Major's "cousin" (after he's entertained two other cousins that week) address her as she's been introduced to you. Otherwise the Major may have you hog-tied for insulting his guest.

Hope this helped!
Elizabeth Topping

[MStuart]

It has, indeed!! If you can go even further as I'm sure I've only asked about my particular ignorances. What can we do to further the "authenticity" in interacting with civilians in camp? Certainly standing when a lady approaches the camp would be correct, but would asking "can I help you?" be appropriate after standing and before she speaks?

Walking to sutler row, would it be appropriate to do so with a soldiers' leather accouterments (saber belt or cartridge belt) on?

The glove issue confuses me a lot, too. When does a man wears them with a lady and what type (I always assumed the white cotton ones).

Mark

[bizzilizzit]

A lady should not be entering your camp alone or unannounced. If either occurs, she would be lost or bold. You should rise whenever a woman enters your camp (or room) and remove your hat. Wait for an introduction from her escort. If two ladies (or one bold one) wonder into your camp, stand up, remove your hat, and ask if they/she needs assistance. They/she should not need to ask you for directions. Offer to escort them/her to their/her destination and make sure they/she is left in the care of the person they/she seeks. If that person is out of camp, offer them/her a chair and something to drink and stay with them/her until they/she is handed over safely.

Sutler row is equal to shopping in town. If you are a soldier, leave your musket and sword at your tent. Sidearms would be ok, except I think most event organizers would frown on it. Anything else you wish to wear is acceptable. Except your nightcap. Proper headgear should be worn in public areas.

Gloves should be worn in public areas if you are a gentleman. If you are of the working class you have more important things to spend your money on. If you are with a lady, gloves should be worn, esp. if there is ANY chance of your skin coming in contact such as helping her up/down stairs or hills by holding her hand or dancing. If you are dining (not eating, as in camp) then gloves are to be worn. Hygiene wasn’t like it is now and that is one of the reasons why gloves are worn. Kid gloves should be worn for formal events such as dinners and balls. Cotton gloves are acceptable at barn dances and other camp events.

Elizabeth Topping

[ElizabethClark]

Just to clarify the situation:

There's a garrison of soldiers. Citizens are potentially visiting the garrison.

(This situation would have great potential for a history-heavy event, so one shouldn't assume it would only be seen at a local "smorgasboard" sort of event.)

What rules of behavior govern their interaction?

Unescorted citizens shouldn't be present in a military camp. Miss Topping has given a pretty handy rundown on how they should present themselves at the guard post, present papers, gain an escort, etc.

I'd strongly ditto using Mrs. Surname as the form of address. "Miss Given Name" is a very informal modern use--sounds "old fashioned-y", so some folks think it must be appropriate to mid-century. One thing I find interesting in many letters I've read mid-century is the often-formal language: a woman writing to her good friend of her grown children's lives, and referring to her daughters as Mrs. Married Name, her husband as Mr. Surname, etc. (Of course, some letters use "Heard from Jane; Bertie is ill with measles, and John will go for the doctor if he's not well soon."--there are few true absolutes, but you can't go wrong calling every adult woman Missus Surname.)

If a town is occupied by the friendly force, one might anticipate that the citizens are somewhat pleased. If by the enemy force, they might engage in some subtle or not-so-subtle civil disobedience (refusing service in shops, women snubbing soldiers, display of patriotic emblems, etc.)

Keep in mind that not everyone followed "period ettiquette" in the period! Books are written to encourage those who *aren't* used to being particularly couth, enabling them to "ape their betters" and move into more genteel segments of society. But the very fact that someone writes about not eating peas with the knife, or not using the table cloth for a hanky, or not spitting in the street, indicates that there *were* folks who did just those uncouth things.

Setting out appropriate rules of contact between citizens and soldiers requires the participation of both segments: the citizens will need education on how to approach the military camps, what is permissable within them, what will earn them an escort back to the non-military areas, etc. If soldiers are out of the garrison area, they'd better have papers allowing such a thing, and be ready to present them to any officer that asks, or they're absent without leave. Adding simple aspects of military discipline and practices in such matters would be a benefit to any event.

[MStuart]

This is all good stuff as far as I'm concerned. In order to keep it going just a little longer, if the ladies would indulge me, I'd like to ask what improvements would you like to see as far as period etiquette in a mainstream garrison camp. What are some of the "boogers" that you constantly see that could be improved upon?

Mark

[Ephraim_Zook]

Hmmm...

Men smoking in the presence of ladies.
Ladies smoking, period.
Men conducting crude conversations among themselves in the presence of ladies.

At the very bottom of the event scale:
Women (obviously, NOT ladies) wandering around in their nightclothes.
Women appearing in their (period) undergarments.

[ElizabethClark]

Things I'd watch for (and which could be easily changed if they're happening this way):

* Families hanging out in or sleeping in military camps. It doesn't work historically very well, due to the rampant disease that plagued many stationare military camps (no sane mother considers that a healthy napping environment for her baby, when cleaner "rooms" can be had in "town.)

* Women or children unescorted in the military camp (children running about on their own, too): huge safety hazard all around!

* Women wearing abnormally formal or revealing clothing into a military camp, such as ballgowns in the afternoon, or undergarments only. There are military rules governing prostitutes, and those can be found in the military records of the time, and replicated.

* Women and children "babysitting" military camps while planned skirmishes happen. A better solution is to post guards at the entrances (yes, these guys miss the skirmish), and bar entry to any spectators or reenactors during skirmish times. A simple, "Camp is closed to visitors until Xpm. Please visit then," will inform potential visitors when they can return to chat with military impressionists.

* Men in military uniform "hanging out" in citizen areas without papers--it would not be typical, from what I understand at this point, for a military man of low rank to "get the night off to see the wife and kids", and military men hanging out in the citizen areas makes it hard for the citizens to have an accurate-looking area. Both parties need to respect the integrity of the other's living spaces. Should men wish to be in the non-military areas, and the event is not requiring papers to do so, those men should be considerate enough to bring along a set of citizen's clothing, and change into them.

I think it just boils down to finding out how military camp security was handled, and replicating it at the event; finding out how the military and the citizens interacted in that sort of situation, and setting up scenarios to replicate it; providing non-military settings for families to dwell, and requiring the military men be in citizen clothing to hang out there, as well!

Beyond that, there's an article added to the Liz's Stumps section of Great Auntie Maude's Curious Compendium of Nineteenth Century Knowledge called "Value Added Events"--a whole host of ideas for potential historical and educational variations on some "traditional" citizen's event activities. Website is linked below my signature.

[bizzilizzit]

First, let us remember we are speaking about Mainstream events, which are family friendly. They encourage the military to bring their family and some units invite them to camp in the military camp. Mainstream events see this crazy thing we do as a hobby, not an obligation. And because of their "lax" rules, they get big numbers at events. If this type of event isn't for you, don't attend or try to change how it's culture functions. Progressives and Campaigners wouldn't tolerate a Mainstreamer's intrusion on one of their events. Let's stay on our own side of the fence, unless we can cross over with respect for the other's event requirements.

As far as women not acting as "babysitters" in camp, posting "visiting" times, or a guard, I say these ideas do not keep the thieves out of one's tent. The guys have come to burn powder and many have driven several hours for that privilege. Unless there is something physically wrong with them and they cannot participate, they are going into battle. A sign stating visiting hours would be a put off to many spectators and an invitation to a thief.

At most mainstream events where I've camped with the military, I cook breakfast and I'm gone for the day (until it's time to prepare dinner). However, some of the other ladies have remained behind and stopped Souvenir Hunters from helping themselves to whatever they can lay their hands on. I cooked for over 70 men at the 135th Antietam event. One morning, after getting up at 3 am, to put up coffee and a light breakfast and then cooking a full breakfast after the sunrise battle, I opted to stay in camp to catch my breath while the guys marched out to line up for the afternoon battle. Good thing I did. Two people dressed in military uniform as Provosts started going through the tents on the main company street. They didn't see me sitting under the cook fly. When one of them emerged from a tent with a rifle cradled in his arm, I stormed down the street and took it from him. They claimed they were looking for a stolen musket (this was a rifle). I told them to come back after the battle and speak to the men themselves. They left. I found out later than they had gone through all the Union camps, with the same story, and walked off with several weapons. I wasn't exactly babysitting, but an overheated and overtired woman waving a fish knife can be a pretty good watchdog against thieves.

Other boogers in a mainstream camp that are improper behavior?

Men should keep their shirts on. I've seen WAY too many half naked soldiers during events. I'm surprised I haven't been struck blind or insane.

Female soldiers. There are too many of them only because I can pick them out as such. Their units needs to require the females to look less female. They also need to learn proper etiquette for a man.

Offering to hold my bundles while I use the port-o-john is a nice gesture.

Brush your teeth behind your tent, not over the fire pit. Ditto for relieving yourself. The moon creates a lovely silhouette on my tent wall…

Elizabeth Topping

[MStuart]

Men should keep their shirts on. I've seen WAY too many half naked soldiers during events. I'm surprised I haven't been struck blind or insane.

Elizabeth Topping

Blast it, woman!!!!! This is my work computer I've ruined now!!!!

Seriously, great post. While Elizabeth's post is surely good, a good deal of her suggestions would be frowned upon, at least in large, eastern mainstream events. (But that is surely another topic)

Many of us "soldiers" tend to take the women for granted in camp, and we surely shouldn't. They are as much a part of our hobby as we are and should treat them as such. They deserve respect and ettiquette as civilians as much as the soldier officers do.

Mark