Austrian rifle muskets

[Artyman]

Was looking through some old books today and, after noticing a mention of same, I realized I know almost nothing about imported Austrian rifles. Same with the Belgan rifles.

Just what were these and were they any good?

The article regarded the arming of the 96 PA with Austrians, fighting a battle, then turning them in for new Enfields.

Harry

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

In brief and to over-generalize...

In 1842 Austrian had adopted the "Augustin" modfied tube-lock system and built a number of arms around the system including a musket, cadet musket, a musketoon for engineers, and a cavalry carbine.
In 1854 they dumped the tube-lock and went percussion.

With tensions building in Europe with the rise of the German confederation,, and Austrian problems in the 1859 Franco-Austrian War, they were looking to modernize and reform. The American Civil War provided eager buyers for the "good and the bad."

The muskets were the .70 Model 1842, which were orignally Augustin tube locks and smoothbores. Some were rifled to take the Minie type ball. In various configurations, the US bought about 68,505, with Herman Boker adding 39,038. Kruse, Drexel, & Schmidt added another 25,000.
Fremont took 25,000, dividing them roughly in half and sending half to Cincinatti to conversion to percussion by tapping a cone for the barrel, removing the Consul/Augustin mechanism, and replacing the hammer.

We they good?

Good enough as their first line musket for the Austrians for a few decades.

IMHO, by American and British standards, the Austrian guns were considered "serviceable" until replaceable- and ugly, poorly finished, and crudely made, with stocks of white/yellow beech.

And there are the old junk in small numbers such as the M1828 or M1807 flintlocks.

The perhaps most well known, and largest number imported by the US and CS, was the Austrian M1854 Rifle-Musket (the "Lorenz"), listed as a 2nd class arm. It was second in numbers only to the Enfield. Period accounts of Loreenz have lads BOTH praising them as well as cursing them as poorly made or defective.

CHS

[Parault]

Mr. Harry these websites:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...ghlight=lorenz

http://www.lazyjacks.org.uk/lorenz.htm

"The muskets were the .70 Model 1842, which were orignally Augustin tube locks and smoothbores. Some were rifled to take the Minie type ball. In various configurations, the US bought about 68,505, with Herman Boker adding 39,038. Kruse, Drexel, & Schmidt added another 25,000.
Fremont took 25,000, dividing them roughly in half and sending half to Cincinatti to conversion to percussion by tapping a cone for the barrel, removing the Consul/Augustin mechanism, and replacing the hammer".

Herr Schmidt,

If I am not mistaken wasnt there several calibers that made it to the Federal and CS side? I do know of the .54 being used, but other calibers as well. I cannot recall where I read the story of Gen. Grant talking about the Lorenz being used in Vicksburg. As I recall he didn't favor the Lorenz very much.

[Craig L Barry]

...having translated the gun terminology from German for the Austrian Officer's manual for the M-1854 Lorenz, “Osterrichische Infanterie - Feurgewehr, Wien, 1857,” maybe I can take a crack at it. I have a copy of it on my desk. Yes, the original caliber of the Austrian Lorenz M 1854 was 13.9 mm, which was close to .54. It is actually .556. The bore diameters on Lorenz guns rebored in Europe or America, or manufactured specifically for the American market, varied with samples noted in .556, .57, .577, .58 and .59 calibers.

Part of the reason for the mixed report card on the Austrian Lorenz is that incorrectly sized ammunition may have been issued...in fact, was issued, i.e., Mississippi rounds in .54 that were actually .535, and even though it is only a few hundreds of an inch off from .556, it was enough to prevent the bullet from compressing against the rifling in the barrel, making it about as accurate as a smoothbore. In addition, the majority (about 80%) of the M-1854s came with block sights set dead on for 300 schritt, which is the Austrian equivalent of a yard...meaning one pace. However, 300 schritt is only 225 yds. The "Osterrichische Infanterie - Feurgewehr, Wien, 1857,” explains all this and how to use the sights to hit a target at various distances over or under 300 schritt. Of course, the manual was never translated into English until fairly recently.

They also claimed (in Echoes of Glory...but I have read it elsewhere, too) that the bolster collected carbon and it fouled quickly. This is true of most muzzleloading black powder infantry arms, and I don't know why that would be a particular defect of the M-1854. The bolster on the Austrian Lorenz rifles that I have inspected seem straightforward enough...reminds me of the P53 Enfield. In fact, a nickname for the Lorenz was the Austrian Enfield due to the similarities in the minds of soldiers who had them. I have a theory about that, since many of the Lorenz M-1854 sold to America were Austrian government guns (unlike the Enfield...next to none of which were British Government guns) that had seen service in the various European campaigns, they were second hand to begin with. The M-1854s were available because the Austrians were upgrading to their new model 1862. They sold the old inventory of M-1854s overseas, and some of the guns were apparently sub-standard. No surprise there, either. By the way, the model 1862 was not exported to the US or CS during the Civil War. Any Austrian Lorenz dated (1)862 or after would be a commercial contractor produced M-1854, of which there were many examples.

[Artyman]

I noticed that Loyalist Arms has the full length Lorenz. Rifled version is listed at $775 US. I've read mixed reports about these guys, but the blurb they post at least shows a nice looking prodict.

If you're a reb, who'd most likely have been issued these?

Harry

[Blair]

Harry,

I believe the Lorenz rifles offered by Loyalist Arms are made by Pederosoli.
They also offer firearms by Armi Sport and Euroarms. These Makers firearms should be safe for shooting blanks through. I would advise caution on any of their "weapons" that they have to drill out the flash hole on. These could not have been properly proofed.
Just a suggestion on my part.
Blair Taylor

[Parault]

Mr. Taylor,

I don't know about all of their weapons, I recently purchased one of the Lorenz percussion rifles from a blackpowder dealer in Little Rock which in turn purchased several from Loyalist. The dealer had a master gunsmuth remove all modern markings from public view, and had it reworked. I am not sure of the grove turn radius, I do not have that information in front of me at this moment. I am very pleased. On my rifle it has 858 on the lockplate. It is .53 Cal. Mine has been proofed by the gunsmith.

[Blair]

P.L.,

Yes, As I stated I "believe" these Lorenz Rifles are made by Pederosoli, and should be safe. Pederosoli makes several copies of European firearms for different time periods. Most noted in this Country are their Sharps Rifles and carbines.
Canadian importation Laws may require this. If so, I wonder how the Canadians get around exporting them into this country? I honestly don't know. I have trouble keeping up with the Laws in this country. A bit of Legalese I find puzzling.
Do you know if the touch hole had to be drilled out in your rifle so it could be made to fire?
If this were case, I would be interested in knowing how this was done.
Blair Taylor

[GaWildcat]

The only "Germanic" arms that Pedersoli carries on their website are the following

Model 1857 Wurttemberg, 1798 Austrian, and 1809 Postdam.

Dixie USED to carry a Lorenz but it was a carbine type with no ramrod(???) but I have not seen it on their site.

[Blair]

To all,

I will talk to the importers of "some" of Loyalist Arms firearms at the Shot Show this week.
The Lorenz offered by Loyalist Arms is imported from India. Along with others. I will try to report on those later.
The Lorenz offered by Dixie was made by the Ceck's. That deal is no more!
Blair Taylor