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VaTrooper
06-30-2006, 01:47 PM
First Manassas Deadline Extended:

Registration for First Manassas - First Bull Run has been extended until 4 p.m. July 10, 2006. No walk-ons accepted. As of today, we have over 6,500 reenactors registered, 75 artillery and 420 cavalry (real numbers). We can safely accommodate 12,000 on the field. Please call 888-628-1864 or 540 869-2064 to register.

Suzanne Chilson
Executive Director
Cedar Creek Battlefield Foundation

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Its hard to pass up a chance to ride in the ranks with that many troopers. So tighten you girth and call that number boys.

skamikaze
06-30-2006, 05:14 PM
[QUOTE=4thVaCav]

As of today, we have over 6,500 reenactors registered, 75 artillery and 420 cavalry (real numbers). QUOTE]

so, does that mean that artillery and cav are not reenactors?

:)


just asking.

VaTrooper
06-30-2006, 05:39 PM
Possibly to let us know that they are actual numbers not estimates?

Kimmel
06-30-2006, 09:32 PM
I hope this is going to be a good event, this would be my first "big one"

Popeye
07-01-2006, 12:10 AM
all events, any event, is what YOU make it for you. It is your experience...do not let how others feel direct your feelings about any event.

Popeye
NRA-Life Member

VaTrooper
07-01-2006, 12:45 AM
I dont know buddy 5" of rain last weekend was enough to bring anyone down.

Popeye
07-01-2006, 12:46 PM
I live in NH....we were 15 inches for the month of June....still below the record 18.4 set in 1944. But your right......that kinda rain at an event makes it real tough to get motivated.....generally a good thunder and lighting storm starts the big stedaddle!! :D

Popeye
NRA Life Member

VaTrooper
07-01-2006, 12:55 PM
Thunder and lightning usually pass pretty quick but that system just stalled over us for days. 15 inches? Wow, only half an inch a day.

Kimmel
07-01-2006, 05:34 PM
all events, any event, is what YOU make it for you. It is your experience...do not let how others feel direct your feelings about any event.

Popeye
NRA-Life Member

very true... thanks

MStuart
07-01-2006, 05:52 PM
I have to echo Popeye's sentiments (and, welcome back BTW). Events, large and small, are rarely all things to all folks. Manassas being somewhat of a "National" event this year on the mainstream side, I'd expect for it to be savaged by more than a few here. However, if you and your unit go and have a good time, what does it matter, really? Is it gonna be "history heavy"? Heck no......but a couple thousand troops on each side is a sight to behold and sometimes worth being part of. That, and it can't be any worse than the 140th debacle.

Mark

VaTrooper
07-01-2006, 05:58 PM
It doesnt matter. Other than one other fellow my whole unit is mainstream and we have fun. But I've also choosen to upgrade my impression so I can go to authentic events as well, they dont hold that against me. Im riding the fence and haveing a great time doing it.

skamikaze
07-01-2006, 10:01 PM
i do the same. i lean towards the campaigner end especially in the impression i do yet i am in a mainstream unit.

i feel that if more hardcore campaigners would go to the big events and the mainstream events you would see less farb there. there is no one telling the farb units that they are doing anything wrong. when i go, i always go out to fight in full gear, knapsack, blanket etc. and have encouraged others to do so as well. having campaigners at mainstream events sparks intrest and does more good than this separatist attitiude that a lot of hardcore guys have.

hiplainsyank
07-01-2006, 10:26 PM
After I started reenacting 7 years ago, I heard a lot from the folks in my group about Shiloh (97 or 98 ) in which there was just tons of rain, so that people said rain was coming up from the groun inside their tents. The event was officially called off, but because so many came so far most stuck around and had one of the best reenactments they ever were in.

bugler139th
07-04-2006, 04:10 PM
i have heard that ice angels are not going to be allowed on the field at manassas this year. I'm an EMT and doubled as a bugler and a safety officer for a year or two and thats definetly a safety hazard. Has anyone else heard anything about it?

VaTrooper
07-04-2006, 04:27 PM
Call me stupid if you must but, What is an "ice angel"?

MStuart
07-04-2006, 04:35 PM
Young ladies (or young men) reenactors, usually not of age to participate in the battles, who roam behind the battle lines providing ice to the troops.

Mark

skamikaze
07-04-2006, 04:42 PM
i heard that ice angels were still permitted, but no vivandiers.

or something to that effect.

this is, of course, all second hand info.

VaTrooper
07-04-2006, 05:40 PM
Thanks Mark.

Vivandiere
07-05-2006, 12:27 PM
I reenact as a vivandiere and have for some years now. I have served with Command Staff on the Provisional Brigade for the 140th Gettysburg.

What I was told by the event organizers was that "no non-combatants" will be allowed on the field.

I emailed with the history of vivandiere's as well as making reference to letters I have in my family of a vivandiere/daughter of the regiment which is not reflected in the official regimental history.

I also talked in my email about the 140th Manassas and the medical issues we faced with the heat - and they should seriously reconsider their not allowing non-combatants on the field.

In the last email exchange, I was told if I was sanctioned by my commander given what I had emailed with them I would be allowed on the field.

As ice angels are "non-combatants" I am not sure they will be allowed...hopefully at a minimum they will do some ice drops on the field. We sure needed them at the 140th Gettysburg at the 140th Manassas. At the 140th Gettysburg - vivandiere's were allowed -- civilians were not and were told to get off the field.

Unfortunately, it turns out I will not be able to attend. I would hope though that the event organizers have rethought this.

My two cents worth...

Lorrie Stearns Proal
Vivandiere

skamikaze
07-05-2006, 04:52 PM
i agree with you. there needs to be someone out there bringing ice to the troops. the heat affects the fit and unfit alike and that is a saftey issue in my book.

although ice angels are not really correct, i think a line needs to be drawn on realism when saftey is involved. same reason we dont use lead food containers.

MStuart
07-05-2006, 05:34 PM
In the FWIW category, sometime after last year's Cedar Creek event, there was (at least on this board) quite the call for more authenticity and less reenactorisms at the event. Seems like the batlefield and command structure "just saying no" to ice angels is just one of what the masses were clamoring for.

In going over the event rules posted on the battlefield web site, there's no mention of barring ice angels, but vivandieres are prohibited unless documentation can be provided that one participated "in the original unit being portrayed".

Mark Devil's Advocate

Trimmings
07-05-2006, 05:42 PM
Calling for authenticity and enforcing reenactment rules and regulations are two different animals. This is a struggle that goes back a long time. In the end, you can bet your bippy ice angels will be there.

Ray Prosten

VaTrooper
07-05-2006, 05:46 PM
In the FWIW category, sometime after last year's Cedar Creek event, there was (at least on this board) quite the call for more authenticity and less reenactorisms at the event. Seems like the batlefield and command structure "just saying no" to ice angels is just one of what the masses were clamoring for.

Mark Devil's Advocate

Interesting. Seems like if something like that was going to happen then they'd start with some of the other horribly unauthentic non safety related issues.

MStuart
07-05-2006, 06:06 PM
Interestingly, the 1st Division, ANV will have Confederate command of both 1st Manassas and Cedar Creek this year. It'll be interesting (or maybe it won't)to see how or if the change of command affects the event.

Mark

Tigerrebjim
07-05-2006, 10:52 PM
What I was told by the event organizers was that "no non-combatants" will be allowed on the field.
Lorrie Stearns Proal
Vivandiere

Vivandieres are carried on the rolls, like a combatant. Am falling in with a unit that at the Battle have vivs with them, our vivs will be with us. Better to ask for forgiveness and get turned down.

JIM T

BobTolar
07-05-2006, 10:59 PM
Folks,
Civilians will not be allowed on the battlefield at First Manassas. This includes "ice-angels." Ice and water can be carried by military personnel as easily as civilians. However, in addition to the ice and water that will be taken on the battlefield, there will be civilians and military personnel just off the west side of the battlefield who will have ice and water. They will be stationed down the slope and out of sight to the spectators. This is in addition to the local EMS. Safety takes priority over authenticity; however, safety is not being compromised by restricting the battlefield to military personnel only. It does mean that some military may have to carry a bucket instead of a rifle. Specific details will be distributed at the event. I hope this helps.

GENERAL RULES from the First Manassas website
1. No one except military participants will be allowed on the battlefield during the battles.

Sincerely,
Bob Tolar

BobTolar
07-05-2006, 11:11 PM
Jim T.,
Vivandieres will not be allowed on the field unless they provide the following information to their respective overall commander.

Uniforms from the First Manassas website
4. Vivandiers will not be allowed on the battlefield unless written documentation is provided to the overall Union or Confederate Commander that a Vivandier participated in the original unit being portrayed.

If this is not being communicated to the units that have vivandieres, they are being done an injustice. I plan on making every effort to enforce these rules. I am posting this information to help get the correct information out to the participants, not to debate them. I have already been in communication with several who diasgree with these rules.

Sincerely,
Bob Tolar

tompritchett
07-06-2006, 12:02 AM
Better to ask for forgiveness and get turned down.

I think that the quote you were looking for was "easier to get forgiveness after the fact, than permission prior". While I agree with this approach when time-critical decision making is required, IT DOES NOT APPLY TO REENACTMENTS OF HISTORICAL REENACTMENTS as there is no excuse why someone's lack of prior planning should be constitute any type of emergency for event coordinators and the reenactor chain of command.

Better to bring a copy of your documentation with you and get approval PRIOR to taking the field.


Bob, would it be appropriate for units with vivandieres to send copies of the required documentation to someone on your staff, such as the Provost, or to provide said documentation to said staff upon arrival of the unit commander to the camp? Just a suggestion to possibly avoid some of the inevitable protests when the rules do get enforced.

Tigerrebjim
07-06-2006, 01:29 AM
Jim T., Vivandieres will not be allowed on the field unless they provide the following information to their respective overall commander. Sincerely, Bob Tolar

Thanks, sent comment forward to commander, along with unit's (historic) vivandier's name, for transmission to command staff.
JIMT

BobTolar
07-06-2006, 06:55 AM
Tom,
The documentation should be sent to me prior to the event or brought to me at Headquarters. With the sensitive nature of this decision, I want to be concistent. I do not want to place that burden on someone else. Also, the historical documentation must come from a reliable source. Personal websites such as bubba.com (if it exists) will not suffice. My phone number and mailing address are located on www.bonnieblue.net under Division Staff. Hope this helps, and thanks for your comments.

Sincerely,
Bob Tolar

MStuart
07-06-2006, 08:21 AM
FWIW: The web-site states no undocumented vivandieres and no civilians on the battlefield. If one reads the event rules/regs, it's in black and white. While this is, as I see it, a welcome change to the come one-come all that usually happens at a large event, I wouldn't want to be on the command staff for this event for $1 million. You just know that there's gonna be some folks who haven't read the regs, or don't care. Like the man said, anyone who hasn't gotten the word about this has been done an injustice....from the unit, battalion or brigade commander (probably all three).

Reading (event rules & regs) is fundamental

Mark

Vivandiere
07-06-2006, 06:34 PM
I read the rules and guidelines. I wonder just how many "military" will give up their rifle to carry ice and water buckets at a national event.

They need to get the spelling right within their regulations -- it is VIVANDIERE and not VIVANDIER.

As far as documentation -- some documentation of vivandiere's is very vague at most if you have done the research. Many will mention they had a "vivandiere" or a daughter of the regiment with them but do not name the person. Another scenario you will find - is that is not documented in a regimental history although we are finding more and more surfacing through letters and diaries being found. Many times you will find that there was a Vivandiere/Daughter of the Regiment with units but it will say i.e. "Georgia Regiment"...or an 139th New York had 6 vivandiere's with them. Not a specific company.

Case Scenario - in my family we had one who was a Vivandiere - and this is documented through letters her mother wrote to her. She was a vivandiere with the 52nd Massachusetts yet it is not recorded in the offical regimental history.

There is a website where those of who are dedicated to the impression do research and feed it into Beth Atkins. www.vivandiere.net

In the recent book, entitled For Love and Liberty: Major Sullivan Ballou, the Second Rhode Island Regiment and His Famous Love Letter by Robin Young.
In this book there are references to Vivandiere's at 1st Manassas.

I hope you all have a good time at the event - and this gets resolved.

Vivandiere's are out there to serve a purpose -- and its a good thing we have them.

Having ice and water with civilians and military just off to the west side of the battlefield is good and of course out of sight of the spectators. What happens when something happens out in the middle of the battlefield...which I have seen many times.

Lorrie Proal
Vivandiere

tompritchett
07-06-2006, 06:59 PM
Might I suggest that you send your documentation directly to Bob Tolar rather than argue about the Vivandiere issue here. Given some of holes in the documentation that you have discussed, it would be best to iron out the issues before hand as much as possible rather than wait until you arrive and find out that you needed that last bit of data to truly make your case.

As far as the safety issue, maybe it would be possible for military and civilian medical impressions to follow the troops at a discreet distance from the Bn/Brigade formations to check on the actual status of the "hits" as added insurance against a heat injury being accidentally mistaken as faked hit. Unfortunately, not all file closers understand their importance in this issue. Also, laying on the ground can occassionally cause heat injuries to develop in individuals who had were in the preliminary stages of heat exhaustion when they decided to take a hit. Again, just a suggestion which may address both the concerns about heat injuries without sacrificing authenticity to the degree that "ice angels" would.

BobTolar
07-06-2006, 08:17 PM
The Vivandiere issue was resolved months ago. Personally, I welcome the opportunity to approve a Vivandiere on the Confederate side, but I need the documentation. I have a personal friend who has an excellent Vivandiere impression, and the rule applies to her as well as all others.

As for safety on the field... there will be heat casualties. How they will be best dealt with cannot be determined on this forum nor any other. The command staffs (which includes professional medical personnel), event organizers, and the local EMS will have a plan in place. Be assured it includes more than volunteers on the west side of the battlefield.

Thanks for your comments. Hopefully, there will not be any major heat casualties. To reach this goal, everyone will have to work together and use good common sense. Hope to see you there...

Sincerely,
Bob Tolar

Vivandiere
07-06-2006, 08:56 PM
Thanks Tom...

I did mean to make this sound like an argument and if so I sincerely apologize...just stating some facts in research that I have done in the past few years. Many don't take the time to do their "homework"...

And Thank you Bob for posting as well...

Reenacting is all about working together...

Lorrie Proal
Vivandiere

Vivandiere
07-06-2006, 08:56 PM
Typo -- I mean to say "I didn't mean"

Lorrie

tompritchett
07-07-2006, 01:51 AM
Sent you a PM

MStuart
07-07-2006, 10:07 AM
I may be in the minority here, but I don't see a problem with the ice and extra water being off the battlefield. I was mildly surprised to check out the ANV web-site to see a portion of their event flyer dedicated to reminding everyone to drink, drink, and drink some more. This is, at least the way I see it, a small step in putting a little more authenticity into a battle scenario. Certainly July is going to be freakin' hot, but, if one takes the time to read a little on heat maladies, one can do quite a bit to prevent them. Exercise, a few practice runs, etc can go a long way. While reenacting isn't a major endurance sport, it does require being in somewhat good shape. We need to look at (and to) ourselves first. There's going to be water and ice available, just a little farther away than usual. We should all have a full canteen and a fully working bladder when we hit the field.

Mark

tompritchett
07-07-2006, 11:40 AM
but I don't see a problem with the ice and extra water being off the battlefield.

I agree. But I also do not see a problem with a small group of medical impressions following well behind the troops just checking on the troops and giving water when needed. In some ways it may even further heighten the effect for the spectators as it reinforces to them the human costs of such battles.

VaTrooper
07-12-2006, 10:46 PM
New Question:

The website doesnt have a list of vendors who are planning on attending. Anyone in the loop wanna fill me in? I wanna get a good slouch hat if theres a quality maker on site.

Tigerrebjim
07-13-2006, 09:41 AM
I was in contact with event sponsor this past weekend. I inquired as to the sutlers in attendance, the response was: " There is a list of sutlers, but I donít have access to it over the weekend. "

I too hope to buy a item or two, and it would be great to have a listing. Out west where I am, the items are poor and price high. Thank God and the Founding Fathers for Capitalism!!!

JIM Tee

Brandon313
07-13-2006, 12:41 PM
yes it would be good to know who will be there so that i know what i need to buy online and what i can buy there!

Tigerrebjim
07-13-2006, 08:31 PM
Was able to get ahold of the listing of registrants, at least for the Confederate Side. A little under 4100 have registered, this includes soldiers, civilians, minors, and such.

JIM Tee

PS - No word on Sutlers in attendance

rebellady
07-14-2006, 08:34 PM
Tpr. Shifflett,

Found some sutlers that MIGHT be at 1st Manassas, per their websites. Heirloom Emporium, Regimental Quartermaster, Civil War Lady, Susquehanna Sutler, and the Maryland Sutler are listed. Not sure this helps, but I tried. :) Dirty Billy makes a good hat, and he usually shows up. Clearwater Hats, if they're there, are good too. My hubby has Dirty Billy and I have Clearwater. Both have had ggod results.

YOS,

Miss Tammi

VaTrooper
07-14-2006, 11:30 PM
Yea I was hoping for Tim Allen or Tim Bender. I guess I shouldnt hold my breath.

VaTrooper
07-15-2006, 11:50 AM
Tim Bender wont be there.

VaTrooper
07-15-2006, 05:35 PM
Neither will Tim Allen. Dirty Billy will be there with "lots of early war stuff."

Brandon313
07-16-2006, 05:06 PM
i know that fair oaks sutler will be there....lol

DColeman
07-17-2006, 01:20 PM
Mark, I think you taught me this but,
Start drinking water right now. You should drink at least 80 ounces a day and drink a full canteen just before you go out if possible. It is 100 degrees here at Ft Detrick today so I can guess what Sat at Cedar Creek is gonna be like!


Dustin Coleman
F-21
23rd PVI
Birney's Zouaves

MStuart
07-17-2006, 04:50 PM
My friend Dustin is right. A little prevention goes a long way. Water is your friend. Stay away from the carbonated beverages and especially the booze. You'll still sweat like a mad-man, but it beats being carried from the field because you didn't prepare your body. Enjoy the event, not the hospital! Carry your musket off the field, not your comrades!

Mark

VaTrooper
07-17-2006, 05:03 PM
Im not sure exactly what the weather is calling for but if its terribly hott a canteen full of Gatorade wouldnt be a bad idea. And for camp tea and lemonade are nice to have on ice.

tompritchett
07-17-2006, 11:26 PM
Gatorade or some other water mixture that replaces electrolytes is especially important when you come off the field, much more so than on or prior. Remember, when you are sweating heavily, keeping your body cool, you are losing BOTH water AND electrolytes (salt). When you come back off the field and drink just water, you are diluting the remaining electrolytes in your bloodstream and more importantly in your body. If the electrolytes become too dilute you will feel faint and may pass out, requiring immediate medical attention. Those of you who were at the 140th Manassas will remember the EMTs coming into the camps Saturday night to give saline (again salt) IV's to people that had fainted. This is why. One good tip, use plenty of salt on your food while you are out there.

Regular3
07-18-2006, 09:26 AM
As one who suffered from heat and "reenactor flu" -- my term for after-the-fact dehydration illness -- I keep a close eye on the weather. Current forecast is 90 on Friday, 80-82 on Saturday & Sunday, with accompanying humidity on Friday and somewhat less on Saturday & Sunday.

I have a stock of Gatorade for Friday & Saturday (I have to leave after the Saturday battle) and also I will carry a quantity of saltine crackers in my haversack. Not exactly period or authentic, but I never felt like endandering health was an essential part of any scenario.

Pvt_Idaho
07-18-2006, 12:17 PM
After talking to my physician about my odd wearing wool in 100 degree heat reenactor habit, I was advised to drink water, eat plenty of salty things, and have a stash of electrolytes on hand to mix in drinks. I've found small packets of Liquilytes (Pedialyte is the maker) to do the trick. They remind me of Kool-aid, a small pouch of dry powdered electrolytes which you add to a cup of water. I carry a stash in the haversack to mix and drink away before and after being in the heat. Tastes better to me than Gateraid and has less sugar.

See you on the field,

"Doc" Scanlan

VaTrooper
07-18-2006, 12:26 PM
Current forecast is 90 on Friday, 80-82 on Saturday & Sunday, with accompanying humidity on Friday and somewhat less on Saturday & Sunday.


Considering the weather over the last few weeks its sounding pretty darn good!

reb64
07-19-2006, 05:19 PM
no need to panic unless your a office worker. For us blue collar guys who work all day in 105 heat all you need is some nice salty sausauge and eegs and lots of water and cold beer at night. dehydration is for those who have bad habits about water. 6 months in the iraq desert and not one soldier had dehydration even with full uniform. just drink water and eat good.

Brandon313
07-20-2006, 11:50 AM
checked the weather, good news and bad news, highs in the low 80's upper 70's, but looks like its gonna be raining.....ehhhhhhh i hope the rain holds off!

RaiderANV
07-20-2006, 11:25 PM
Lodgewood will be there with all original and repro parts to fix whatever ya done broke. =) All gunsmithing services at Lodgewood also. See ya'll there

zouavecampaigner
07-25-2006, 04:17 AM
Mark,
this is probably REALLY old news, but there were more vivandieres out there then you could shake a m55 rifle at! Ugh Ugh Ugh! The 33rd VA looked great though!

Shaun

tompritchett
07-25-2006, 07:57 AM
but there were more vivandieres out there then you could shake a m55 rifle at

On the Confederate side, they were well behind the lines - usually meeting us as we marched to and from the battle. I may have only seen one total actually behind our lines once we deployed. Cannot speak for the Union side however.

zouavecampaigner
07-25-2006, 02:28 PM
Tom,

I saw a plethora on both sides, though most were acting as ice angels. I can honestly say that this was the first event where I didn't take any ice from the ice angels, but I sure was glad for the CS medical boys carrying lots of canteens of water for the wounded! I rather enjoyed the extremely long scenarios, even with the breaks in the middle for the artillery boys to move their guns around by prolonge ropes. We made sure our boys were WELL hydrated, and the 5th's oh so wonderful lemonadeorade in camp was enjoyed by ALL the Fire Zouaves!

Shaun