DVD or CD-Rom - How to for saber drills, etc.

[M E Wolf]

Dear Sirs,

May I inquire, if there is/are CD-ROMs and or DVDs; to which has motion instructions on 'how to' for sabre/swords as well as firearms?

Difficult to find are illustrations on 'sabre/sword' reverse arms and rest on arms; let alone finding fluid motion 'how to' guides.

I do have:
1861 Revised Regulations for the Army of the United States;
1862 Army Officer's Pocket Companion -A Manual for Staff Officers in the Field;
1863 Laws of War; (Articles of War, General Orders No. 100 & Army Regulations;
1865 Customs of Service for Officers of the Army and
1865 Customs of Service for Non-Commissioned Officers and Soldiers


Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

The closest I've found to anything of help outside of the manuals was an article in the first year of Civil War Historian magazine, which had several individual pictures of most sword manual movements. You can contact them for back issues. As for videos, I've never seen one yet dedicated to the manual of the sword, only School of the Soldier in a two volume set from, I believe, Media Magic.

[M E Wolf]

Dear Ross L. Lamoreaux,

Sir, I do thank you for your quick response.

I would hope that this may open an opportunity for those, who may be so inclined; as to produce one. I am sure it would make a profit as well as being very good at translating static 'how to' into movements through which a person could practice with; as well as the commands.

I would not mind seeing a instructional video for artillery and cavalry as well; and, perhaps borrow what has worked for me but, modern now with new recording devices at people's disposal--

Having interest in cavalry, I had three troopers in a line, two outside fitted and the middle with a 8 mm recorder; sounding of the notes; the two outside troopers would be subject to the orders, the middle trooper's horse between them would follow the drills. Even charges, three other troopers would come forward as in a charge; all done in a walk I must add. The slow drill of command as well as with verbal and musical commands; was most helpful to take home and repeatedly watch and, when back on the field for practice drill there was a huge improvement, as well as to share with their friends who boosted recruitments beyond expectation. I would be embarrassed to use the old 8 mm film as it would look as if I was sitting on an active earthquake. LOL -- Today, with such clever individuals and modern cameras--this could open a new door of opportunity, as well as to reach into the equestrian world for a potential revenue engine and recruiting.

The same could be done for artillery; the drivers featured and off hand horses in all three positions, to include the swing team; would--in my opinion do much as far as increase the education, sharing and the admiration of the art form of handling an artillery battery beyond the firing aspects. From limbering up to the entire sequence through the end and back into a limbered position. It takes skill to manage an artillery team of horses and men.

Sirs, perhaps if these videos could be made; it may boost education, appreciation and profit.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

[RJSamp]

I am sure it would make a profit

M. E. Wolf

What credentials do you have for making such a statement?

Having made a dozen bugle call tapes/cd's and sold a few thousand.....and having seen / participated in numerous attempts at digitized or video taped drill...I can assure you that it wouldn't be a gold mine.....and if fully costed as to time, materials, gas, etc. it would NOT make a profit.

Your mileage won't vary.....

we received saber instruction for our Cavalry troopers from a University fencing coach....awesome.

[M E Wolf]

Dear RJ Samp,

Sir, I didn't see anywhere in my written post that I said any profit would be a 'gold mine.'

Further, "profit" is not strictly financial. There would be benefits in making such a CD-ROM and or DVD; I can see would not only be educational and or informative to those interested in re-enacting but, it would be very helpful for parents on the side lines, especially those never exposed to the military -- have a means to identify what they are seeing on the field, or in camp, the protocol steps and or etiquette.

Sir, consider the fact, an admission from the film maker Ken Burns himself; that is on the 'making of Gettysburg' section of that DVD-Movie--He said in not so many words; that he dedicate five years of his life to express the Civil War through pictures. Being involved near the artillery, he could not get over the sounds or the loudness of the cannons going off. Now, this alone has me consider why hadn't Ken Burns attended any number of Civil War re-enactments that had artillery, and or demonstrations where artillery was featured? So, though Ken Burns admission is the problem as to why story telling of history can be so skewed, for those who are 'teachers' per se, this could/may be worthy of consideration.

Please note sir--I have always used the words "consider" in this topic. Perhaps some will see it as fruitless and some see things differently. But, one thing I have never done sir--That is, to approach anyone with a 'demand.'

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

[Rob Weaver]

What you should do is look at the manual, learn it well, and post your video to Youtube. Accessible to all of us instantly.

[Dave Myrick]

Look here:
http://mainecav.org/moa/sabre.html

Dave

[M E Wolf]

Dear Dave Myrick;

Thank you very much for the link sir.

I have seen it before and the trooper did a fantastic job in demonstrating the saber drills, especially for cavalry, sir.

Sir, it is still difficult to find the 'reverse sabre' that accompanies 'reverse arms.' I have not found a photo of it via National Archives, US Library of Congress and the like, for the Civil War era.

I also have read: GETTING THE ‘POINT’ ACROSS: ~Instruction for Infantry Officers in the correct use of swords~ By: T.R.Wheeley - Nov. 2002 article.
Actually a well illustrated written work, with period photographs in support of the various manuals in relationship with the sword.

Again, sir -- thank you most kindly, for offering and sharing the fine link of the Maine Cavalry Organization.

Respectfully submitted,
M. E. Wolf

[M E Wolf]

Dear Rob Weaver,

Sir, I do thank you for your response to my inquiry.

I do find your suggestions very positive indeed.

As, "You-Tube" is splendid for instant exposure as well as the many ways of being helpful.

Although I do have practice with the sword/saber; at my advanced age and debilitating arthritis; I do contemplate on having a much younger gentleman perform the sword/saber manual, if at all possible. Yet, sir -- I wanted to ask first on this fine list of seasoned gentlemen, if there was something available already and support through purchase, those who recorded what I sought.

Again sir, thank you so very much for your response.

Respectfully submitted,
M. E. Wolf

[Rob Weaver]

Until recently that would have been my first impulse too: probably asking where I could get a "video!" Really, I intended no insult. I just think that this is a marvelous resource for demonstrations of drill that we haven't exploited to it's potential yet.

[flattop32355]

Look here:
http://mainecav.org/moa/sabre.html

Showing my ignorance here: Other than the "holding of the reins" by a trooper, would the demonstration be accurate for infantry as well as cavalry in all instances?

[M E Wolf]

Dear Rob Weaver,

Sir, no insult was ever considered in your response. Please, sir--do not concern yourself in that regard. You have been most kind and most helpful sir.

Personally, should there be an opportunity to support a re-enactor and or a group of re-enactors, through purchase of a DVD or CD-ROM; I would prefer it over viewing it on "You Tube." It is my honor to support the community, et.al.; sir.

Once again, I do thank you sir.

Respectfully submitted.
M. E. Wolf

[M E Wolf]

Dear FlatTop/Bernard Biederman;

Sir, it is my understanding of the 'sword/saber' manuals; the use of the sword/sabre (also spelled saber); is very similar for the 'dismounted trooper' as it is for the infantry. I must confess though sir, I am more familiar with cavalry than infantry and special sword drills, such as funerals, parades and the such.

That said, I must also bring to consideration; that the cavalry saber is longer in length than an infantry sword. The philosophy, is that the trooper is more inclined to be mounted, rather on the ground; unless he has been thrown off his horse, knocked off his horse and or the horse was killed/wounded; causing the trooper to be on foot; the length of sword gave a better reach in the varied tactical thrusts or what I've known it as "points;" and cuts, parry as well as the moulinet. All explained well in The 1862 US Cavalry Tactics. What happened during the Civil War though; the cavalry was using the saber less often, in favor of the rifle/carbine. Shooting the horse, you disable the trooper. Disable the trooper, one diminishes the cavalry strength. Diminish the cavalry strength and the ‘coined phrase’ “eyes and ears of the Army” were diminished in effectiveness and or ‘collateral effect.’ The trooper then became more often ‘dismounted’ using the firearm. In a sense, ‘mounted infantry, mounted rifles and or mounted sharpshooters.’

Infantry swords are shorter and not as curved by its design but, it is my opinion the drills would be the similar. Drills would demonstrate the attack and defensive use of the sword/saber , use against cavalry, infantry and if in the position to ‘tangle’ with the artillery; against the men who had use of their artillery sabers. It is my opinion that the moulinet, which is a circular motion of the sword would be the only area where Infantry would not be drilled on. The moulinet would be best be astride on a horse. It really can be seen as a polo movement; but--it would be dangerous in close ranks of officers and men; as would other forms of sword drills, to which would disrupt the formation. I am of the opinion though; if in the heat of battle the major concern is using the sword to defend yourself and or to attack if given an opportunity, especially when gunfire is no longer an option.

That said, in the aspects of infantry; being in possession of a revolver/rifle,etc.; the saber/sword really was more of a ‘sign of rank’ rather as a weapon yet; served as a weapon as necessary. For the soldier, the bayonet would serve as would an officer use his sword/saber.

I do find sir, that with the cavalry equipped with rifles and carbines; this gave more versatility to the cavalry trooper. Close in fighting would cause troopers to use their revolvers and or sabers; the saber knot which was looped on their wrists; would cause prompt recovery if the sword/saber was knocked out of their hand or if they loss the grip of their bladed weapon.

Infantry sword use, as I have observed so far; is the symbol of authority and rank. When there is a transfer, such as adjutant passing command to the Colonel, once the field has been assembled and formed; the sword indicates by being out--the shift of the authority as well as the focus. In the ranks; non-commissioned officers, junior officers and or perhaps senior officers will have their swords/sabers drawn and in position; with the command that parallels to that of those carrying rifles/muskets/carbines, by the soldiers.

These are just my personal opinions sir.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Several years ago, some well known reenactors got together and filmed a quality series of videos on the school of the soldier (previously mentioned in this thread). The writer and producer was not only a serious living historian but a film professional, and that showed in the quality of the content. They provided a great service, that of visualizing the various movements, and at an affordable price. They did not go into the project expecting to make money, but to break even, provide an outlet for some serious living historians to educate, and more importantly for some people to learn something in an entertaining manner. They went to great lengths in choosing two historic locations, showed both CS and US soldiers and drill, and the professionalism shows in this production. All that said, it took years to just break even. Those in the documentary and film industry know that history doesn't pay. Serious living historians such as many on this and other forums are too small an aspect to go through the time and effort for a major (or even minor) film production to teach as aspect of American history so small. There are many books, manuals, and individual units that can and do teach the many aspects of being a soldier, and nothing replaces actually learning and doing with real people, particularly a video. In this day and age of TV, movies, and computers, there is one aspect of life that is difficult to improve upon with technology - learning by doing. In a perfect world someone would step up and make a video for everything, but I can't see someone taking the chance to make one for a small element of a small (in the scheme of hobbies) group of people.

[Dave Myrick]

Showing my ignorance here: Other than the "holding of the reins" by a trooper, would the demonstration be accurate for infantry as well as cavalry in all instances?

Bernie:
The drill illustrated on the referenced web page is straight from the Poinsett's cavalry drill manual. It was instructed to officers and men of the prewar Dragoon and Cavalry Regular and militia units as well as the wartime Cavalry units. It is meant to teach how to use the saber safely as a combat weapon. The drill is performed the same whether one is mounted or dismounted.

The infantry sword was for the use of and a badge of office those of commissioned status. It was not meant to be a combat weapon and the manual regarding its use was quite different than that described above.

Mr. Wolf:
Your logic regarding cavalry tactics is flawed. A well trained and equiped trooper can fight equally well whether mounted or dismounted. It is true that in the horse was disabled, the trooper looses his mobility but his ability to fight is still very potent. Also from your statement one could infer that men were trained to shoot or disable the horses of their opponents. This is not borne out in the accounts of mounted combat.
Further regarding saber drill and exercise, the moulinet is performed as a warm up if you will to cause the wrist to be supple yet strong when performing the cuts, points and parrys. Simply put the moulinet is not a combat maneuver.
To perform saber drill, the men are formed as normally in 2 ranks and in close order. They are then instructed to open order, front to rear and to increase spacing left and right. This is done to give the men the required spacing to perform the drill without threat of injury. After proper spacing is obtained, the men are instructed to perform a series of moulinets, left, right, left and right and then rear before moving into the aforementioned cuts, points and parrys.
Regarding the use of the saber, the Federal Cavalry in the AoP became quite adept at its use. They were noted for it. There are numerous examples of a mounted charge against other cavalry, artillery and infantry. The weapon of choice was the saber.
The adoption of more conventional dragoon tactics was a gradual thing. Any serious examination of mounted combat during the war will show this. One will also find that cavalry was horribly misused with few exceptions for the majority of the war. There are many reasons for this and that is a topic worthy of its own discussion.


Dave Myrick

[thpritchett]

One will also find that cavalry was horribly misused with few exceptions for the majority of the war. There are many reasons for this and that is a topic worthy of its own discussion.

And would you like to start just such a topic?

[thpritchett]

Several years ago, some well known reenactors got together and filmed a quality series of videos on the school of the soldier (previously mentioned in this thread).

I am wondering whether or not anyone in that group has considered transferring those videos over onto DVD's and re-releasing them. If there is a question of royalities, the proceeds beyond reproduction costs, or portion thereof, could be ear-marked for some preservation cause. I am sure that there would be a market among those of us that joined the hobby after all those videos had sold.

[M E Wolf]

Dear ThPritchett/Thomas H. Pritchett;

Sir, in addition to your comments, just the fact that VCRs are going out of production and DVD players are taking their place; I would hope someone would transfer helpful instructional video to CD-ROMs or DVDs.

It would be wonderful to assemble anything for the grand-babies who are too young at this time but, want something ready to show them when I am totally disabled.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

[thpritchett]

Dear ThPritchett/Thomas H. Pritchett;

For clarification, I have decided to use the thpritchett username when I am just reading and responding as a reenactor and reserve the tompritchett username for moderating. That way I can log in quickly to deal with an Alert and log back out without losing track of which posts I have not read. Of course, I may occasionally may slip up and post a purely reenactor related post as tompritchett, such as was done this evening down in the Preservation thread, but I will try to keep that down to an absolute minimum.

Now the real question will be if I started doing something similar to Bragg and end up deleting my own posts. :D

[M E Wolf]

Dear ThPritchett;

Sir, I have had contact with Mr. Holien - Historian- Ft. Meyers, Virginia; to whom suggested that I contact Historical Films, Inc. - Phone: 517-393-3100; web site www.historicalfilms.org; e-mailL info@historicalfilms.org.

I did contact via phone and they are selling :School of the Soldier - Program I (one) - Facings, Manual of Arms and the Bayonet and School of the Soldier, Program II (two) - Loading, Firing and Marching. As a set it is $40.00 for DVD. The gentleman who answered the phone though, could not tell me if they included officer's training of the manual of arms; to include reverse arms for sword/saber. So, though a "soldier" is covered --the impression I have, the officer's training of the manual of arms are not.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

[thpritchett]

Thanks for the information. I will have to follow up on that link.

[flattop32355]

Sir, I have had contact with Mr. Holien - Historian- Ft. Meyers, Virginia; to whom suggested that I contact Historical Films, Inc. - Phone: 517-393-3100; web site www.historicalfilms.org; e-mailL info@historicalfilms.org.

Would you be so kind as to confirm that web address? I tried it, and nothing comes up.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Would you be so kind as to confirm that web address? I tried it, and nothing comes up.
I noticed a semi-colon added to that link from above. Go to www.historicalfilms.org and that should get you there.

[flattop32355]

I noticed a semi-colon added to that link from above. Go to www.historicalfilms.org and that should get you there.

At one time, I'd heard they were going to update the two instructional films and put 'em on DVD. No sign on the site that say they have.

[M E Wolf]

Dear Flattop32355/Bernard Biederman,

Sir, I called and I asked if they had it on CD-ROM and or DVD. The School of the Soldier Part 1 and 2 are on DVD now. I never did bother going to their web site. :)

I ordered the set. But, looking at the promotional jacket; the focus is on the soldier; not the officers and certainly not 'ceremonial'/'honor' positions, such as Reverse Arms and especially for the saber/sword; to which I am seeking.

Just some thoughts sir.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf