Berdan Sharpshooters uniform

[Sharpshot]

Gentleman,

I have a pattern for a frock coat and wanted to do a berdan green one. My wife is allergic to wool and I was wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of cotton the color of berdan uniform or a snythetic product that looks like wool. I have been checking my local (Phila.) fabric stores with not much luck. Any info would be appreciated .

Thanks,
John

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Unfortunately it is virtually impossible to match the look, appearance, drape, and wear of wool in any cotton or synthetic fiber. What you'll end up with is something that will shrink, age, and fade unnaturally, and won't resemble anything other than a poorly made constume rather than a historical reproducation.

[Duff]

The Berdans frock is virturally impossible to reproduce even with wool. If you insist though, the closest color is called rifle green. Basicly try to find the darkest green you can find. I personaly have never seen any fabric that resembles wool in any way, so someone else will have to help you with that.

[Sharpshot]

I knew I would get some good info from knowledge sources. I will have to figure out another way to go green.

Thanks
John

[MarkTK36thIL]

Best bet might be to take your pattern, get some wool, then find a seamtress to make it.

[Duff]

depending on how allergic she is you could also look into woolrich or similer wool/poly blends.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Is the problem she cannot "be around" wool, or handle wool and cannot sew a coat up, or is the problem that the coat is intended for her to use and she cannot wear wool?

While there are wool/nylon blends that can be found in the 80/20, 85/15, 70/30, and even 60/40 ratios at times... wool, kersey, and flannel look like wool, kersey, and flannel.
Yes, there is say green cotton, but cotton does not appear as, or "look like" wool, kersey, or flannel.

On the other hand, in some circles the "standard" for Berdan uniforms is overly heavy 22 or 24 ounce "blanket wool" which does not "look much like" Period Berdan coats.

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS

[Marc]

On the other hand, in some circles the "standard" for Berdan uniforms is overly heavy 22 or 24 ounce "blanket wool" which does not "look much like" Period Berdan coats.

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS

Curt is correct I am at work but the Berdan Frock was made from about 10-12 oz wool orginally, in fact the first frocks were from England.

Many of us have tried for the past years to find just the right dark green color and have come close, but I have yet to see a Berdan frock that is right on colorwise. We have studied Don Trioni's (sp) coat and also at the Smithsonian and have engaged some of the wool manufacturers to try and duplicate. One problem is the law of supply and demand. Since the number of people that would purchase the correct color wool is small any manufacturing interest is nil or if made would be cost prohibitive to purchase.

[reb64]

Curt is correct I am at work but the Berdan Frock was made from about 10-12 oz wool orginally, in fact the first frocks were from England.

Many of us have tried for the past years to find just the right dark green color and have come close, but I have yet to see a Berdan frock that is right on colorwise. We have studied Don Trioni's (sp) coat and also at the Smithsonian and have engaged some of the wool manufacturers to try and duplicate. One problem is the law of supply and demand. Since the number of people that would purchase the correct color wool is small any manufacturing interest is nil or if made would be cost prohibitive to purchase.


If this stuff is hard to find, do you think the orignals wearers had the same trouble or used something more common? I would think there is something stockpiled and hidden somewhere.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

If this stuff is hard to find, do you think the orignals wearers had the same trouble or used something more common? I would think there is something stockpiled and hidden somewhere.
The original wearers had no trouble at all, since all of their uniforms were provided for them (they did not have to make their own uniforms). There were hundreds of uniforms issued, so the minimum quantities that are needed today have no bearing compared to back then. They were all contracted out initially, made, and then issued. The regiments did, however, have trouble at certain times in the war continuing to issue the same frocks and trousers, and at those times issued the standard fatigue dress and trousers as that of the army. Those who are more knowledgeable on Berdan's men and their equipment could post more details on that than I.

[thpritchett]

Many of us have tried for the past years to find just the right dark green color and have come close, but I have yet to see a Berdan frock that is right on colorwise.

I am just curious whether or not the surviving Berdans would match the colors that they were in the 1860's due to the slow oxidation of the dyes used? Who knows, if there has been some fading over time, maybe some of the colors you looked at actually did match the color of the frocks in the 1860's. Just food for thought.

[Marc]

I am just curious whether or not the surviving Berdans would match the colors that they were in the 1860's due to the slow oxidation of the dyes used? Who knows, if there has been some fading over time, maybe some of the colors you looked at actually did match the color of the frocks in the 1860's. Just food for thought.

Actually the one uniform at the Smithsonian is a sealed pattern uniform and the other one was in excellant condition so fading was not an issue. The problem is the berdan uniform should be a very dark almost black-green.

The berdans were also issued the blouse or fatigue coat just like the regular line infantry. At times especially after 1862, a Berdan could be dressed in a multi-colored uniform. Green pants, blue blouse----blue pants, green frock coat----blue blouse and blue pants----usually still had the green forage cap. Of course this issue of what the USSS wore and when has been an ongoing discussion for quite some time.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

I am just curious whether or not the surviving Berdans would match the colors that they were in the 1860's due to the slow oxidation of the dyes used? Who knows, if there has been some fading over time, maybe some of the colors you looked at actually did match the color of the frocks in the 1860's. Just food for thought.
Good point. Thats why knowledgeable folks who reproduce period items by using original items to go by look at interior seams, inside pockets and facings, etc that haven't been exposed to sunlight, so they get the true color of an item.

[GreencoatCross]

All,

I'll try to keep this focused on the materials used in the two USSS frocks I've studied. My friends and I up here in Michigan have been on the time-honored quest to obtain the best replica USSS frocks for over a decade, and we've been fortunate enough to learn a lot about the originals along the way.

There are two provenanced, original USSS frocks in private collections that I have seen. Both appear generally the same in pattern and appearance but there are tons of little details that make them far different. For instance, Sgt. Tilson's frock in Don Troiani's collection is a nice looking coat in general but some of the construction techniques are sloppy, internal facings are cut from different shades of dark green cloth, and the thread used in some parts of the interior don't appear to be color-fast. The other frock, owned by Cpl. William Henderson, is absolutely the most immaculately constructed Schuylkill Arsenal uniform coat I've ever seen (and I've seen many). The thread, fabric, construction, everything about Henderson's frock is wonderful.

Now, the cloth in each uniform coat is different from the other, from the internal facings to the trim. All fabrics, except for the trim cloth, are very well-made twill wool of about a 14 to 18 ounce weight and have an almost lustrous, "velvety" appearance due to the finish. The color of both frocks is a very deep, dark green that has ZERO yellow hue. They have a much stronger pure blue/indigo hue especially when viewed at an angle to natural sunlight. I was able to examine Henderson's frock both indoors and outdoors; inside, the frock is just the darkest shade of green I've ever encountered but outside the color really pops. One of the color properties I love about these two frocks is that the further away you are the darker they appear.

As a side note, the cloth used for both frock coats' trim is a light-weight plain-woven broadcloth. Tilson's frock coat trim has faded from a rich medium/dark grass green to a pale washed out kind of pea-soup color (original unfaded color was observed under the exterior cuff facing, which had come loose). Henderson's frock coat trim remains unfaded and is a vibrant emerald green; interestingly, someone had cut the very edge of the cuff off so inside portions of the cuff, totally unfaded, were visible.

So far there is only one manufacturer, and one manufacturer alone, who produces the medium-weight, twill woven and properly finished wool broadcloth good enough for proper reproduction USSS frocks. Abimelech-Hainsworth in England is the place to go but unfortunately the price of cloth is so $&#! high that unless you are truly dedicated to an accurate USSS impression, you will likely use the money to pay for a car loan, mortgage, groceries for a few months, etc. etc.. Of the dark green colors Hainsworth produces only a few are acceptable; I will dig up my samples and try to find the name/product number of the suitable fabrics.

As for when the USSS was issued green uniforms as opposed to blue, this varies between the two regiments and is also dependent, during certain time periods, upon the whims of company officers, division/brigade/regimental orders, individual tastes (to an extent, and within regulations), proximity to proper supply, and availability of what has been requested from the QM. There's a lot of factors at play here but people sometimes forget that these two regiments were still volunteer soldiers in an army of the same, who were subject to military regulations and red tape. Fortunately for us researchers, the Sharpshooters left behind an incredible number of photographs, letters, official documents, and diaries to help us construct what they looked like at nearly any given time during the Civil War.

I hope this is helpful, if a little long. The study of USSS material culture is one of my great passions and it's been my focus in the study of Federal uniform clothing for several years. Once I figure out how to post photos and whatnot I will try to include a few for your perusal. If anyone has any questions please feel free to shoot me an email!

[RJSamp]

So far there is only one manufacturer, and one manufacturer alone, who produces the medium-weight, twill woven and properly finished wool broadcloth good enough for proper reproduction USSS frocks. Abimelech-Hainsworth in England is the place to go but unfortunately the price of cloth is so $&#! high that unless you are truly dedicated to an accurate USSS impression, you will likely use the money to pay for a car loan, mortgage, groceries for a few months, etc. etc.. Of the dark green colors Hainsworth produces only a few are acceptable; I will dig up my samples and try to find the name/product number of the suitable fabrics.


Thanks, it would be interesting to know what the price per yard, minimum yardage, etc. is...... I know women/designers who spend hundreds of dollars per yard for fine fabrics.....

Awesome website.
http://www.abimelech.co.uk/end_military.htm

I have an Ainsworth in my background....took notice of Hainsworth....

[GreencoatCross]

RJ,

I don't think Hainsworth demands a minimum purchase at all. Typically their woolens will run from $75 to $95 a yard, with some of their rougher, lightweight lining materials much cheaper.

After my last post I requested some samples of Hainsworth's entire line of yardgoods. I noticed on their website that they carry many more colors than what I have here in my five year old sample catalogue. If I find anything of interest in the new samples I'll post the info including price, stock numbers, etc. for those interested (this includes what material is good for caps too).

[Marc]

Brian,

How many orginal berdan frocks are left....I seem to remember 3..Troiani's and the 2 at the Smithsonian...I understand one fellow had one in Ohio is this the Henderson one?

I remember many of us considering the Hainsworth cloth until we found out what the price was.

[GreencoatCross]

Marc,

To my knowledge, the surviving USSS frocks are:

- Sgt. William F. Tilson coat, Don Troiani Collection, Southbury, CT.

- Cpl. William Henderson coat, private collection (name withheld by request).

- Capt. James Baker coat, Smithsonian.

- "Sealed Pattern" coat, Smithsonian.

There are several dark green post-war fraternal order/lodge coats that are mistaken for the real deal located all over the country. These coats look like Civil War era officer frocks but there are minute details that set them apart (but not so minute to trained eyes); large hooks at the waist/skirt seam, post-war buttons, machine-sewn buttonholes, rayon linings, little to no quilting in the chest, felt tab that covers the collar opening/hides hooks and eyes (similar to some WWI era uniforms), and, most obviously, manufacturer's tags located in "hidden" areas of the coat such as inside pockets or under a little cloth flap under the collar. I've seen four of these so far and my business partner bought one for a couple of dollars as an inside joke!

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Danke Herr Brian... I just came in from cleaning up apples and mowing the lawn, and you saved me a long post.
I would just add a passing comment for the others about "green," in that in the era of pre-aniline dyestuffs the fabric was not simply dyed green but rather "green" could be a mix of two seperate dyings with blue and yellow in different production runs from different supply sources at diffrrent times (let alone the quality and quantity of dyestuffs and dye baths, temperature, different wools taking dye differently, dyemasters' skills, etc.).

Ah, the joys of trying to determine 'color' from less than a handful of surviving garments and black-and-white images. :)
And trying not to get a green that reacts to the salt in sweat and turns orange... :(

Wait.. weren't we talking about nylon? ;)

CHS

[GreencoatCross]

Curt,

You are exactly right about the dyeing and that is something I didn't touch upon in my previous messages. It's highly likely that the cloth used for USSS garments wasn't just dipped into a vat of green dye but rather started life as dark blue indigo-dyed cloth....the regular old fabric used for standard infantry uniform coats. It's believed by many that the pre-existing dark blue cloth was later treated to a yellow dye bath thus producing the incredibly deep, rich, green hue of the existing originals. Worth consideration too is an 1861-1862 order for forage caps to be made from indigo top-dyed YELLOW "facing cloth" (lightweight plain-woven cloth). Judging from how some original caps have faded, I doubt that this can be disputed.

My close friends can attest to my years upon years of disappointing fabric dyeing. Why disappointing? Because I made the mistake of trying to get already-green cloth darker in shade. Despite all of my attempts NOTHING came close to the originals; everything was turning out olive green or dark drab because I was prone to using brown-based dye baths. After five years of this experimentation it dawned on me; find some pure dark blue fabric (indigo dyed preferably!) and give it a simple yellow top-dye. It worked out wonderfully and I have about a dozen samples of various types of cloth that turned out different from the next but definitely within the realm of acceptable shade and hue.

So far my best efforts have come from top-dyeing Hainsworth's "garter blue" doeskin broadcloth, Woolrich's dark indigo blue kersey, and various samples of dark blue flannel from Family Heirloom Weavers (not a type of cloth used for frocks, caps, or pants in USSS uniforms but I had to see what it would look like!).

Some of you other Sharpshooter types have tried your hand at getting green cloth darker through home dyeing techniques. I have no doubt you got the cloth darker but for better results try top-dyeing pure blue cloth with yellow. If you try this out there are some important things to remember:

1.) Use a PURE BLUE dyed, dark colored wool. Blends such as Woolrich work as well.

2.) Avoid "navy blue" or any kind of shade of dark blue that appears purple or reddish.

3.) Experiment with various dye baths; water temperature, amount of dye, powdered versus liquid dyestuff, salt versus vinegar in the bath, etc.

4.) Record EVERYTHING you do during the experimental dyeing. Do the math and extrapolate your results. Pretend you're working on the Manhattan Project or something.

5.) Follow the dye package's instructions for dissolving it into water. If you aren't careful here you''ll end up with crystals of dye in the weave of your cloth and it'll look funny.

6.) Always wet the cloth you intend on dyeing before you put it in the bath.

That's pretty much it. I don't know how involved your units may be in attaining your own uniform cloth but this is the fun way to go. If any of you try it out I'd love to see your results!

[GreencoatCross]

All,

I received an email yesterday from Jim Ruley who provided information about which Hainsworth material would be appropriate for USSS frocks. Below are the particulars:

"- Doeskin, code 108, rifle green: This is the best cloth they make, and the color is probably as close as you will get without doing your own dyeing. However, some people feel the cloth is “too good” for enlisted uniform coats. It’s great for officer’s coats, however.

- Reenactment collection, MF8848, rifle green: Same color as the doeskin but a more plainly finished cloth. I haven’t bought any yardage of this as I have of the doeskin, but it looks ideal for enlisted coats. Should be a bit cheaper and is 100% wool AFAIK.

- Trim: The coats I made for you guys were trimmed with superfine, code 210, Infantry green. This is a rich emerald green color indicative of unfaded trim."

And there you have it. I'm still trying to pinpoint the wool that is slighty darker and more subdued than the rifle green doeskin. I did find the label which lists the cloth as "forest green" but it didn't have a code number. I feel that this particular sample is closer to the color and hue of the original USSS frocks; the rifle green, as Jim said, is better suited for officer's frocks.

Another important note here in regards to the rifle green doeskin is that the very first USSS frocks produced were made from imported dark green English cloth. Although I don't know if it came from Hainsworth (which was in production during the war), the early frocks were noted by many Sharpshooters as being finer quality than later issued uniforms. An order for 3,000 enlisted uniform coats was placed with Martin Bros. & Company of NYC in August/September 1861, meaning that the first issue frocks did not come from the government facility at Schuylkill Arsenal.

Furthermore, historians Earl Coates and Don Troiani uncovered a series of correspondences between Col. George Crossman (Schuylkill Arsenal) and Col. David Vinton (New York) discussing the first USSS frocks. Colonel Crossman, probably knowing of the 1861 contract for USSS coats, requested a sample from Col. Vinton. Vinton then stated that they had no more in storage at New York since some had been issued at the Sharpshooters' meeting point in Weehawken, NJ, with the remainder already sent to Washington D.C. and distributed there. It seems that Crossman was looking for a sample USSS frock to use as a "Sealed pattern" model for Schuylkill Arsenal. When none were available Vinton told Crossman that the ones already distributed had been made to the standard Army pattern. Sometime in early 1862 Schuylkill Arsenal produced what are now referred to as the "sealed pattern" USSS uniform coat and trousers, with sample caps provided by the firm of George Hoff.

Thus is the story behind the first U.S. Sharpshooter frock coats.

[reb64]

Gentleman,

I have a pattern for a frock coat and wanted to do a berdan green one. My wife is allergic to wool and I was wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of cotton the color of berdan uniform or a snythetic product that looks like wool. I have been checking my local (Phila.) fabric stores with not much luck. Any info would be appreciated .

Thanks,
John

there is a decent looking berdans frock on ebay for a little over 100. i wonder at this price if its top dollar wool and all or may be synthetic that you can wear. worth looking at maybe. its under civil war category.

[RJSamp]

there is a decent looking berdans frock on ebay for a little over 100. i wonder at this price if its top dollar wool and all or may be synthetic that you can wear. worth looking at maybe. its under civil war category.

We just talked about top dollar wool being $75+ per YARD...

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

there is a decent looking berdans frock on ebay for a little over 100. i wonder at this price if its top dollar wool and all or may be synthetic that you can wear. worth looking at maybe. its under civil war category.
The only one I saw on EBay was from Milk Creek Mercantile, and even in their limited description is said it was made of 20 ounce wool. That's blanket wool folks. I've never seen an original or a quality reproduction made out of anything that heavy. The amount of handwork alone in a Federal frockcoat would net someone about $3.50 per hour making a correct one at their price.

[reb64]

The only one I saw on EBay was from Milk Creek Mercantile, and even in their limited description is said it was made of 20 ounce wool. That's blanket wool folks. I've never seen an original or a quality reproduction made out of anything that heavy. The amount of handwork alone in a Federal frockcoat would net someone about $3.50 per hour making a correct one at their price.


I only said one was on there an worth a look. If it just for display or casual wear it might be the way to go. dont need to pay oil executive prices to have fun you know. then again people who like to spend too much and prance around in your kings clothes worry me. there are two on ebay, one is from uncle sam sutlery, they also sell jean wool rd2 for under 100. probaly a error run but one can fix those issues or treat them as rea issue which was sometimes mistake laden. buyer beware but worth a look.

edited - THP; made less direct

[Sharpshot]

WOW I had no idea I would start such a great and interesting talk about Berdan uniform. Thanks to all who supplied posts , I really learned a lot and will keep on looking for a solution. My wife is very allergic to wool and tolerates my sack coat and other items , I was hoping we could find a subsitute for the green coat because she is a great sewer and weaver and wanted to make me a coat, she was just hoping it could be made out of something with a wool look just not something that closes her throat. I have seem some really good berdan coats made out there ( mill creeks looks good) so I may have to save my pennies and keep it locked up when not in use.
Thanks again and keep the ideas comming.

John

[Slickrick214]

This one unit seems to have close to what you guys are describing. They're a Berdan unit that has dark green almost black green uniforms. If this is right then maybe it will help give an idea as to exactly what you want created.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g112/Slickrick214/BerdanI.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g112/Slickrick214/BerdanII.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g112/Slickrick214/BerdanIII.jpg

[RJSamp]

This one unit seems to have close to what you guys are describing. They're a Berdan unit that has dark green almost black green uniforms. If this is right then maybe it will help give an idea as to exactly what you want created.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g112/Slickrick214/BerdanII.jpg


Second from the right has a particularly DARK green uni.....maybe it's the light, but it is nearly black. Especially the trowsers.....but definitely darker.

[Slickrick214]

Much darker then that and your getting pretty close to pitch black on the color spectrum.

[cal 100]

Here are some photos of our unit, we tried our best to get the green as close to the original as we could.

[Sharpshot]

Hey CAL100,

Did you guys make those coats or buy them. They look great . Let me know who you bought them from, so many sites have different colors of green on them its hard to judge. Thanks for the posting.

John

[cal 100]

John, we produced the cloth, different weights for the pants and frocks. We had the uniforms made. Getting the color right was very hard