Walking off the field

[Poor Private]

How many here have actually walked off, or taken your troops off a field due unsafe practices by others, or unprofessional leadership?
How many wanted to walk off but was afraid to , because you would be looked down on, or have action taken agains you. So you just put up with it and continue.
I can remember one stupid tactical where our company commmander walked us off the field due to both union and confed commanders were argueing about who knows what for over 5 minutes while the whole battle came to a standstill.
I have walked off the field when a brigade commander stood in front of us cussing and swearing at us because we did what he said and not what he meant. (several others walked away also).

[mmartin4600]

I walked off the field after a charge on a artillery emplacement dissolved into a fistfight. I still don't know what happened. I went and stood with the crowd.

Michael Martin

[indguard]

I have walked my men off once over a ram rod issue.

I also kept my men off the filed years ago over the ignorance of some event organizers.

I was also part of a battalion/brigade that walked off a field and quit an umbrella organization twice, now.

WTH

[Bill_Cross]

We (the Rowdy Pards) once refused to participate at a gray NPS LH when one of the spokesman made unfortunate and perhaps even veiled racist remarks in front of the public. We were vilified by some in attendance for not being "part of the team," but I don't think any right-minded descendant of CSA soldiers wants to support ignorance and prejudice.

[Rachal]

I have threatened to before. Thankfully, the most severe example of unsafe conditions occured at an event near the end of the battle. I simply took the opportunity to retreat back and waited for the battle to end. That event is no longer held, so I will not have to face that scenario again. I will never understand why some people will not elevate when they are close to others, insist on engaging in unscripted hand to hand, or will order firing when they are next to caissons. I guess somebody has to die in front of them first.

[Rachal]

We (the Rowdy Pards) once refused to participate at a gray NPS LH when one of the spokesman made unfortunate and perhaps even veiled racist remarks in front of the public. We were vilified by some in attendance for not being "part of the team," but I don't think any right-minded descendant of CSA soldiers wants to support ignorance and prejudice.
Good job, Bill. I wish more people had the strength of conviction that your group showed.

[Poor Private]

The reason I started this thread was because I figured that it would tie in with the "having fun or not thread". Because if your not having fun you have walked off the field instead of sticking around to put up with nonsense that is going on. If your not having fun why be there?

[OVI]

At Antietam 140, myself and couple of Ohio comrades were in a company of the 2nd Wisconsin and went into the Cornfield early Sat AM. Anyone who was there knows that action devolved into an unsafe CF. When it started to get stupid, I said I aint staying and came out. My mess mate Tyler "Rufus" Underwood decided to do his routed impression and he ran out of the corn shucking his gear. Unfortunately that included his rifle which took us two hours to locate after the battle.
But the point is, it was unsafe in that Cornfield and we left the field.

Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

[Edwin Carl Erwin]

Two years ago I walked away from what proved to be a "ram'n & jam'n" 6 pounder crew I'd fallen in with for a weekend. I left based on their utterly unsafe, clown-like behavior about the piece. I speculate that Ft. Sill would have taken away their red noses had they witnessed the event. Hopefully, Saint Barbara is keeping an eye on that lot.

[Rick Keating]

When I was a company commander I walked my company off the field at least twice because of unsafe conditions.

At an event in Naperville, IL about 17 years ago (farbfest deluxe and still is) a member of my company was shot in the face by a walk-on reb. They broke the scenario and rushed the Union line wanting to do hand-to-hand. At about six feet a musket went off and hit this fellow in the face. Fortunately he blinked at the exact right nano-second so did not get any powder in his eyes. Of course action stopped immediately and after he was tended to I removed the company from the property. We packed and left.

Our company also left the field in the middle of a tactical after a reb dismounted cav guy shot one of my men in the chest with a revolver from a few feet away leaving a powderburn in his coat.

I would never hesitate to remove my men from an unsafe situation. The primary concern for any commander should first and foremost be the safety of the men.

Unsafe situation... we're gone!

Rick Keating

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"How many here have actually walked off, or taken your troops off a field due unsafe practices by others, or unprofessional leadership?"

As a 40 man company commander several times over the years in the Way Back Daze as "protests" against dangerous safety violations in the form of "disengaging" from kevlar enemy troops wanting to deliver a volley at 20, 15, or 10 yards.

Rather than "walk off," the entire company would myseriously "die" en masse. Or in the case of a mountian howitzer being wheeled up even with our line, and fired less that three feet from the last lad and "ringing our ears," we moved away...

As an individual, "walking off" by not "walking on" (meaning not going to events or events with units with a history of violations.)

And yes, there is usually always a "price" to be paid, but having "fun" and having "fun safely" can sometimes come with a price so that everybody returns home intact.

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS

[Kevin O'Beirne]

How many here have actually walked off, or taken your troops off a field due unsafe practices by others, or unprofessional leadership?


I only did once in 15 years, and that was at 140th Antietam in 2002. After enduring that event for three days, the B.S. at the beginning of the Sunday afternoon scenario, "AP Hill's Counterattack" left me so speechless I left with my two comrades. I was part of the battalion "staff" that weekend and hence was not missed by that point, and my two comrades by that point were both privates (one had been a company commander earlier in the event but had de-ranked due to shrinking numbers in our battalion). Before we left, I reported to the battalion commander my intention to leave and got his okay to do so. The conduct by hundreds at the event at that point was just that appalling to me that we departed then and there.

[3rd_PA_Artillery]

Once at a rather big battle, I guess my captain had something wrong with our battery placement and General Kelly (our division commander) came over and went ballistic. He started screaming at the poor old man and using all types of four-letter words, all of this was in front of me, still a young child at the time, and several other younger-aged batterymen. It was then that I just walked off to the edge of the field to keep away from the hot-tempered general. Whenever people asked why I walked away, I just told them that I was going to help another battery take a broken primer out of a gun.

[CameronsHighlander]

I can only say I ever did anything over safety issue and that was running at Woodbury last year when the smoke blocked my vision and I couldn't see anyone infront of me and figured Vice versa so I left my unit behind and ran back to the trenches. Suprisingly I met with the Colors and reformed on them and ended up on TV for it.

[Rob Weaver]

At Antietam 140, myself and couple of Ohio comrades were in a company of the 2nd Wisconsin and went into the Cornfield early Sat AM. Anyone who was there knows that action devolved into an unsafe CF. When it started to get stupid, I said I aint staying and came out. My mess mate Tyler "Rufus" Underwood decided to do his routed impression and he ran out of the corn shucking his gear. Unfortunately that included his rifle which took us two hours to locate after the battle.
But the point is, it was unsafe in that Cornfield and we left the field.

Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"
I remember that cornfield and your assessment is accurate, even after all these years. I've only left the field once: when an element fixed bayonets before an assault at the end of the scenario. They've subsequently been blacklisted from that same event.

[tompritchett]

As an individual, "walking off" by not "walking on" (meaning not going to events or events with units with a history of violations.)

As a unit, my old unit decided not to attend the 140th Sharpsburg because of the conditions at the 140th First Manassas. As an individual, I have been known many times to take a hit as a walking wounded when I think that a scenario is getting too squirrelly (be that unsafe or just totally unrealistic and ridiculous) and just limping off the field to some cover.

[RJSamp]

Hallo!

"How many here have actually walked off, or taken your troops off a field due unsafe practices by others, or unprofessional leadership?"

As a 40 man company commander several times over the years in the Way Back Daze as "protests" against dangerous safety violations in the form of "disengaging" from kevlar enemy troops wanting to deliver a volley at 20, 15, or 10 yards.

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS

Several times at GAC the lines got way too close with LOTS of funs going off..... I couldn't pull back the troops but got my horse back 40 yards and let her relax/graze.

Was surprised that no one walked away at Outpost last year. Lines got tight several times....including mounted cavalry in proximity to a firing infantry company.....

And infantry is STILL aiming at each other......doesn't matter if it's 10 (at least they duck hunt [usually], 100, or 200 yards away....gun control is being able to hit what you aim at.....and gun safety is never shooting/aiming at something you didn't want to kill.

[Strawfoot]

Funny that no one ever talks about the guy who got shot in the package at Raymond in 2001... He was actually a galvanized Reb in Somers' Battalion who were leading the charge Saturday AM. I still remember Boo Hodges vividly describing the wound to those of us in the ranks... Ouch.

Anyhow, two entire companies of the 1st US (TX), 1st Battalion, Frontier Brigade, left the event right then and there. The remaining company in that battalion rolled over into the 2nd Battalion, FB, and stuck around until Saturday afternoon, until that battalion also quit. (It WAS hotter than two rats in a wool sock that day, and the water situation sucked.)

By close of business Saturday there were two indivduals from the entire Frontier Brigade left, one of them being me. The silver lining was I strolled over to the AoP HQ and begged into Dom's battalion, mainstream gear and all. A week later most of that gear had hit E-Bay and I was a changed re-enactor.

All's well that ends well I suppose.

[ScottWashburn]

Our battalion marched off the field after the infamous Tompion Incident at Monmouth many years ago (wet weather, someone left a tompion in their musket and blew a hole through the drum of one of our musicians). Our battalion commander was criticized for leaving later on, but I still think he made the right decision.

At the 135th Shiloh, I nearly marched my own battalion off the field after a 'friendly' artillery crew fired their gun right at us from a range of about 20 paces. I still can't figure that one out, we were just marching by into a reserve position and the nearest enemy was a half mile away.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"And infantry is STILL aiming at each other......doesn't matter if it's 10 (at least they duck hunt [usually], 100, or 200 yards away....gun control is being able to hit what you aim at.....and gun safety is never shooting/aiming at something you didn't want to kill."

Quite true, very true.

But in my heretical opinion, IF we were to boycott or walk off every event where firearms are levelled and not elevated, we may need to find a new hobby. ;) :(

CHS

[Regular3]

In all my years of reenacting I don't recall being pulled out of a battle in midstream too many times. But as a unit we have shrunk our pool of events because the organizers of said events refuse to change obviously (to us) unsafe and/or farby conditions.

Why is it that so many organizers of ostensibly living history events believe that "whenever two or more in different colors are gathered, they must shoot at each other" ? We have deleted a number of living histories from our schedule because the organizers insist on a "skirmish" between the 10 Federals and 12 Confederates who attend, in a confined space and with no spectator control. We have offered to fill the time with demonstrations, but that doesn't suit. And yet they keep asking us back, and we keep explaining why we won't participate.

[tompritchett]

Why is it that so many organizers of ostensibly living history events believe that "whenever two or more in different colors are gathered, they must shoot at each other" ?

While not defending the organizers per se, unfortunately, IMHO there appears to be a general public expectation that whenever you get reenactors of both sides at the same event, sometime there must be some sort of battle. Granted this may not be the case with the more knowledgeable spectators, but it does seem to the be case with the general public.

[Regimental_Officer]

Our battalion marched off the field after the infamous Tompion Incident at Monmouth many years ago (wet weather, someone left a tompion in their musket and blew a hole through the drum of one of our musicians). Our battalion commander was criticized for leaving later on, but I still think he made the right decision.

At the 135th Shiloh, I nearly marched my own battalion off the field after a 'friendly' artillery crew fired their gun right at us from a range of about 20 paces. I still can't figure that one out, we were just marching by into a reserve position and the nearest enemy was a half mile away.

Scott i remember that incident with the drummer at Monmouth. I was a member at the time with the 12th New Jersey and was not that far away when the tompion smashed into his drum.

[Regular3]

While not defending the organizers per se, unfortunately, IMHO there appears to be a general public expectation that whenever you get reenactors of both sides at the same event, sometime there must be some sort of battle. Granted this may not be the case with the more knowledgeable spectators, but it does seem to the be case with the general public.I'm sure you're right, and thus the event organizers are giving their public what they think they want.

But we've found that a lot of people who attend events we participate in actually prefer seeing demonstrations rather than skirmishes, because they know that at the end of our respective presentations, reenactors will be available and eager to answer questions. For whatever reason, they tend not to hang around for engagement after an engagement, but drift away.

[hiplainsyank]

The thing about the Raymond 2 incident was that it was described as a small diameter wound, and during the march off the field, many Federals were thinking there was some neo-Confederate nut in the woods who was out to pop him a Yankee.

The other good news about leaving early was the chance to see some of the Vicksburg Park.

[Chuck A Luck]

Why is it that so many organizers of ostensibly living history events believe that "whenever two or more in different colors are gathered, they must shoot at each other" ?

Perhaps, if the terrain/space is right, you could instead suggest doing a simulation of opposing picket lines. There's a few different interesting & historical activities that could be done with this activity, in addition to popping off a few rounds at each other. Just an idea.

[RJSamp]

While not defending the organizers per se, unfortunately, IMHO there appears to be a general public expectation that whenever you get reenactors of both sides at the same event, sometime there must be some sort of battle. Granted this may not be the case with the more knowledgeable spectators, but it does seem to the be case with the general public.

Spot on. If you are recreating an historical moment....and put two enemies within rifle shot of each other.....can the organizers come up with some reason to NOT have them shoot at each other? That's one reason that the AHT camping situation was so unrealistic to all.....(throw in the Coleman Lanterns in the Tented General Mercantilists area that was 'between' the camps as another).....proximity to the enemy during a multi day battle reenactment.

We've had living histories, locally, featuring both sides.....and if you get more than a basketball court of space they expect you to start shooting at each other come 2PM.

I think you vote as a unit with your feet....maybe alternate which side appears at the venue.....

[Pvt Schnapps]

I'm pretty sure the event Darrell means is the one at Sully Plantation near Dulles Airport. I don't know who the CS sponsor is, but apparently they've had this venue for a while and once they finally got some US troops to show up, they just had to have a powderburner.

A couple years ago it went beyond silly to potentially dangerous when the CS took position behind a rail fence with the spectators behind them, and invited us to come shoot at them.

Last year we had perhaps two dozen Federals and maybe 40 CS. The Saturday morning scenario was better than the previous year's (no spectators in the line of fire), but the afternoon got silly again -- there were so many spectators that half the morning's battlefield was commandeered for parking. After a firefight around a dumpster near the edge of the parking lot the US forces all took hits. I don't think any of my unit stayed for the Sunday follies.

Why go at all? This event takes place in the heart of suburban northern Virginia and attracts literally thousands of spectators. It's a great place to talk to people and attract potential recruits. We hope to further improve -- or lessen the madness of -- the "tactical." Last year we seriously debated not participating but reluctantly agreed because we were promised it would be better and we wanted to be supportive. We'll continue to work with them, but I'm not sure how long. We'll have to see.

But fundamentally I agree with Darrell. The tacticals are less interesting and certainly less educational than an intelligent demonstration of drill, and I truly believe that all spectators -- not just the ones over 6 -- get a bigger kick out of talking to the "soldiers" and looking at their stuff up close than watching them play cowboys and Indians on the lawn of the big house.

[Poor Private]

Most living histories in our area get little response by the public. You have to remeber there were not many battles fought in Michigan during the war:rolleyes: . So there are very few historic places here other than a couple of Forts, and fairgrounds that were used as mustering places. So the local events at fairgrounds, private parks, and city parks have the combination going. Living History, and the scripted afternoon battles with the dance on Saturday evening. And guess where the the crowd ends up. The Battlefield!~ It is always announced that the camp sites of all the groups,(blue, gray and civilian) are open for thier inspection and be sure to stop and ask questions, and watch. It seems they come early and wonder through the camps, but as soon as the battle is over they disapear.

[hiplainsyank]

Besides picket posts running into each other, other realistic scenarios for the numbers can be found. In one event there was a scenario where the Federals were going to destroy a railroad and the Confederates were trying to defend it. Someone even put together a 20 foot or so section railroad prop.

[Regular3]

I'm pretty sure the event Darrell means is the one at Sully Plantation near Dulles Airport.I did have Sully in mind a little, but the one I was really thinking of was at Blenheim Manor in Fairfax City. Being right in downtown Fairfax there is nowhere near enough space for any kind of opposing action, yet they continued to insist on it.

We dropped it for good after conducting a skirmish with spectators sitting on the porch of a house behind the Confederate line - which was no more than 15-20 paces from ours to begin with. Confined space + No crowd control = Accident/lawsuit waiting to happen.

As for Sully we are going next month. Sully is one of those places where the pickets and patrols easily would have (and I'm pretty sure did) run into each other. But as Mike described, there didn't seem to be any script, and even less crowd control. We'll see what happens - If nothing else it will be fun to visit with Mike again.

And he also reinforces the part of the point I was trying to make - We put events like Blenheim and Sully on the schedule because they're easy events in our backyard (Sully is about 25 minutes from my house) and usually good for a lead or two on new members because they get a lot of visitors, and so we truly do dislike dropping them.

And we hated dropping Blenheim even more because the event raised funds for preserving the house, which is worthy of preservation because the walls in the upstairs bedrooms and attic contain names and graffiti put there by Union soldiers who occupied it at different times during the War. But we just didn't feel that that was enough justification to continue silly and risky behavior, and we couldn't get the organizers to change it.

[Capt Terry]

I remember leaving the field on 2 occassions.

1. Cedar Creek, Calvary start charging between our battalions, which was not expected and we only had about 20 yards between the battalions. The commander pulled us out as a safety precaution.

2. Cheraw SC, Federal commander broke scenario, enter the woods and hit our right flank, which was not part of the script. I took the battalion off the field.

[Charles Weathers]

Besides picket posts running into each other, other realistic scenarios for the numbers can be found. In one event there was a scenario where the Federals were going to destroy a railroad and the Confederates were trying to defend it. Someone even put together a 20 foot or so section railroad prop.

Now that sounds really cool. I would love to participate in that kind of scenario. :cool:

[hussard7]

I remember leaving the field on 2 occassions.

1. Cedar Creek, Calvary start charging between our battalions, which was not expected and we only had about 20 yards between the battalions. The commander pulled us out as a safety precaution.

2. Cheraw SC, Federal commander broke scenario, enter the woods and hit our right flank, which was not part of the script. I took the battalion off the field.

Terry:

20 yards between battalions is more that enough room to move a column of fours at the walk or trot as long as the space is not littered with causualties.

So that you know the term/command "charge" is not a change of gate/speed or a reason to break the formation. I know that most of the cavalry seen at mainstream events are clueless to that fact. The command CHARGE is only a change of saber position from the carry to IN TIERCE POINT for the front rank and to HIGH CARRY for the rear rank. The in tierce point position is with the blade edge up.

Yours,
Wayne Gregory
Stafford, VA

[Poor Private]

Now that we have discussed, and told examples of walking off the field.
My next question is: Was it reported to the event organizer? If so what was the results? Did the event change? Was the company in question or person held responsible? Have you went back? Has any event been cancelled due to lack of participation by the walkoff or boycott of an event?

[RJSamp]

Now that we have discussed, and told examples of walking off the field.
My next question is: Was it reported to the event organizer? If so what was the results? Did the event change? Was the company in question or person held responsible? Have you went back? Has any event been cancelled due to lack of participation by the walkoff or boycott of an event?

At Wauconda IL in about 2000 we had a tactical cancelled.....musket discharged into the chest of a Federal riflemen.....fairly close distance.....

safety meetings were held and changes to how the tactical was handled put into effect for next year.

At Lockport IL in 2007 a saber was drawn by a Confederate Officer during an unscripted 'melee'. The Federal Company immediately marched to the rear and off the battlefield and the spectator viewed scenario rapidly closed. We had a meeting with the CSA commander and the individual.... we'll see what happens at this years Lockport.

At Wilson's Leak 2000 a confederate mounted cavalry battalion was being continually/constantly pushed by Federal Cavalry companies in succession....the CSA forces finally exited the battlefield....only to reenter by RIDING THROUGH THE CROWD and appearing on the flank of the federal forces. The scenario was brought to a rapid conclusion including disengagement by the federal cavalry (and progressed to the infantry portion of the battle)....afterwards a major meeting of the minds took place.

At various battles throughout the Midwest and NSA events the specter of dismounted PISTOL fire at close range loomed its ugly head. Multiple preloaded Cylinders, artillery using pistols instead of fighting their piece, officer's firing pistols instead of fighting their company or battalion, dismounted cavalry advancing with pistol volleys in succession. And of course the unbelievable image of using long range pistol fire (who's zoomin' whom). A series of pistol standards has evolved into codified safety procedures for use at NSA events, and 1st ILL Battalion attended events. At GAC I so a number of violations of the common sense standards.

At GAC Thursdays Tactical a number of mounted CSA cavalryman were firing AT us with pistols at close range (safety violation #1, and #2). Suddenly it looked like a 4th of July fireworks display as two of the pistoleers discharged cigarette paper wadded loads....flaming projectiles that actually almost hit a couple of us. The exchange was immediately halted by our Commander, and after a heated discussion with the MOUTHY VULGAR confederates they admitted using non Cream of Wheat (COW) wadding in their pistols (Safety Violation #3). The forces disengaged. One flaming paper or Wonder Wad to an eye could have seriously hurt not just the target (never ever aim a weapon at something you do not want to KILL)...but the event AND the hobby.

Unlike NSA/Midwest events, GAC had artillery men armed with loaded pistols (and no horses to shoot, which was the purpose of arming NCO's with a pistol), officer's with loaded pistols, and I never saw but wouldn't be surprised if dismounted cavalry discharged pistols. In our standards no dismounted personnel carry loaded pistols, exception would be mounted cavalry who have just dismounted to fight on foot. Dismounted cavalry works their long arms, no discharge of pistols allowed.

Pistol range is less than 50 feet.....and 15' would be their effective range.....think of them as a lance and you'll get the idea. Pistol Carousels by mounted is the single most farb tactic in reenacting...I saw them doing this at Franklin against infantry IN light field fortifications....OUCH. Fresh horse for dinner and use the prisoners to dig the graves for the dead cavalrymen.

I've seen a number of questionable Saber melees....including Backing, multiple attackers, inadvertently slashing or lowering of the blade.....all forbidden in the rules. We've had conversations with the YAHOOS who get into it too intensely.....and refuse to engage with them if they persist.

As has been mentioned, after the Raymond shooting incident both armies went into a stand down.....water shortages rampant in the federal brigades and law enforcement did a titular investigation of the 'crime scene'. No CSI here. The decision was made to continue the event (the Saturday afternoon fallow cotton field/defile crossing battle was superb).

And the entire weapons inspection/safety reports process was standardized/codified in the NSA....the pistol issues were resolved (no dismounted pistol discharges, no loaded pistols for non mounted personnel, COW wadding ONLY, multiple cylinders and pistols kept to a minimum, more reliance on the use of long arms by both mounted and dismounted cavalry, safe discharge ranges AND where the pistol was to be aimed were defined, etc.). Some will recall the dismounted cavalry trooper shot at G135....we now push wooden dowels down all pistols to make sure a 'ball' isn't lodged in the barrel, part of the weapons inspection process.....

Also as a direct result of the shooting incident at G135....David T Smith came up with his safety Book. Weapons and safety inspection reports became standard at big events...tagged muskets that had passed inspection got onto the battlefield.....morning standto/inspection of weapons under the arc lights at A140 was EERIE. Event Organizers LeBeouf and Warlick were involved in this, as well as the military command structure.

[Capt Terry]

Terry:

20 yards between battalions is more that enough room to move a column of fours at the walk or trot as long as the space is not littered with causualties.

So that you know the term/command "charge" is not a change of gate/speed or a reason to break the formation. I know that most of the cavalry seen at mainstream events are clueless to that fact. The command CHARGE is only a change of saber position from the carry to IN TIERCE POINT for the front rank and to HIGH CARRY for the rear rank. The in tierce point position is with the blade edge up.

Yours,
Wayne Gregory
Stafford, VA

Wayne,

I should've been more descriptive of what happended. We were facing (2) battalions of federal infantry and engaged. The calvary, came through at the gallop and fanned out in all directions to our front. The horsemen became intermingled with the infantry which caused our formations to lose their integrity. And these were our own calvary! The scenario did not support this nor was it included. Whomever was the cav commander did this at their own initiative, but it resulted in destroying our scenario with he federal infantry.
And we did have casualities to our read and front.
Seeing the infantry break up, our commander decided to pull us out. Basically, some yahoos doing their cowboy thing.

Now, if they had come through walking or at the trot and it was part of the scenario, I agree on the space, but to bring calvary through at the gallop in the situation I described above is reckless and dangerous.