Tacticals?

[Thomas L.]

Hello,
I am completely new to reenacting, and I was wondering how tactical battles worked. I can't find information anywhere, so I figured I would ask here. So if you could give me the details and any info, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for your time.
Sincerely,
Thomas

[hendrickms24]

They work just as well as when we played "ARMY" as a child. They don't! :lol:

[Chuck A Luck]

They work just as well as when we played "ARMY" as a child. They don't! :lol:

Actually, they sometimes do work. Take the "October '62" as an example, conducted by good reenactors last October out north of Goose Greek, near Middleburg & Aldie VA (Welbourne Plantation property, IIRC). It was a well run tactical, and most enjoyable, at least IMHO.

However, to answer the original post's question (at least partly), it's up to both the commanders on each side, as well as each individual soldier, to be "in the moment" and -- as the situation warrants -- give yourself up or take a hit or run (or, of course, stand & fight) as seems most realistic. Generally, opposing sides of course would not normally stand and duke it out at less than 100 yards. Usually one side or the other will give.

To a large degree it's up to the commanders to keep & maintain engagements at appropriate (read: realistic) ranges -- something that doesn't usually happen at most non-tactical reenactments (nor many tactical ones either, for that matter).

That's my 2-cents on the matter.

[tompritchett]

Hello,
I am completely new to reenacting, and I was wondering how tactical battles worked. I can't find information anywhere, so I figured I would ask here. So if you could give me the details and any info, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for your time.

Going back to the very basics of your question, tacticals are CW reenactments were there is no script. Each commander is free to maneuver his troops as he thinks is appropriate for the situation. Sometimes the tacticals are refereed where independent referees assign casualties based upon how they see the situation unfolding while others rely on the individual soldiers to take hits and commanders to withdraw as they see fit. Tacticals are often used at events which have no historical basis for the event. Tacticals can also occur at events where there scripted battles for the public but where the tactical is for the enjoyment of the reenactors themselves (e.g., the Sat. evening tactical at New Market this year).

[Thomas L.]

Thanks for the replies. They really helped out, because I was absolutely stumped.
Sincerely,
Thomas

[Poor Private]

Think of capture the flag in Boys Scouts. At some events 1 unit or the other has some feature or structure to defend, and the other side must either take the designated sturcture in a certain length of time or lose the battle. At one event that I have attended there are 3 tacticals and whoever wins 2 out of 3 is the overall winner. We have had in the past the local national guard unit as judges. they judge on hits, proper and safe movements, and wether a unit may have gone out of bounds while moving.
At one event the judges look through each individual cartridge box, this is so they can place at random red or yellow cartridges. When a soldier pulls out a yellow he must take a hit now, if he pulls a red he is dead. this is only for the duration of this particular tactical.

[3rd_PA_Artillery]

A tactical reenactment is like real war, only without the killing and whatnot. The commanders of the units can maneuver their men wherever they feel could win the battle. It works sometimes, but most of the time they don't because the rebs don't take their hits!:lol:

[ScottWashburn]

Tacticals rarely turn out very 'realistically' unless you have umpires (a rarity), but if everyone goes into them with the proper mindset, they can be a great deal of fun. The pre-dawn tactical at Cedar Creek is a classic. Mobs of guys blundering around in the dark, firing into your own men by mistake, loads of fun :)

[indguard]

I have been through tacticals that worked great and ones that were bad. There was an event in Hastings, Michigan that had two days worth of tacticals for a decade or more. Some years they were amazingly realistic, some not.

The coolest thing, though, is not the who won and who was shot part. It is the maneuvering. In my experience, just getting your troops underway and engaged is most of the fun. After all, we can't really have a true counting of death and casualty (even with judges). But, getting there is, as they say, half the battle.

Most of the "moment" experiences I had during tacticals was the officers figuring how to get there and then getting there.


I remember one grueling event at a North/South alliance tactical in Kentucky back in... maybe it was 1994. We made a circuitous march through those steep, rock filled Kentucky gorges. It took about three hours to do it. We were about beat to death just making the march.

I was a Captain then and we heard the battle raging at the top of a steep ridge we were climbing. So, we finally get to the battle after all that effort, I was first company captain and I got my company into line, well what was left from those that didn't fall out from the march. We had a prime position with the Yanks backs to us. I began my company firing so that the rest of the battalion could get into line.

We let go a round of firing by file. As the last few ranks let loose, a WHOLE Yank battalion simply turned around and fired about 100 muskets right at us from no more than 50 yards.

The judges looked at me and my first Sgt. who were right at the head of the company and he said. "Well, you two have had it" and gave us both death cards.

So, all that marching, three hours of scraping our knuckles to hurry up those rock ridges and I got about 50 seconds of battle before I was dead!

Then, that night it got below freezing and we had but one blanket a piece. My canteen even froze while I was wearing the darn thing. I was never so happy to see sunrise in my life. Even 50 degrees seemed like a heat wave after that miserable, sleepless night.

Now WHAT could be more realistic that THAT!!???

Yours
Warner Todd Huston

[CUPP]

One of the best thing that I look forward to.. No public watching, The best time I have ever had was at Franklin Anniversary event several yrs ago.. With the Sat morning tactical... It was a real moment moving on the federal trenchs in mid morning not knowing what was going to happen

[Lightningslinger]

Hello,
I am completely new to reenacting, and I was wondering how tactical battles worked. ...if you could give me the details and any info, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for your time. Sincerely, Thomas

Thomas,

There are, as others have posted here, the good, bad and the ugly in tacticals, just as there are in living history demonstrations and historically scripted segments called re-enactments. Even though any of these three types of events can be pulled out of the fires of failure, by the ingenious few, a lot of the success of an event can be owed to the planning of it. Planning is the least conspicuous element of a successful event and sometimes the least recognized by the majority of participants. Its actually suppose to work that way too.

That being said, I'm of the opinion that having a number of living history outings can/could/should prepare a participant for what they might encounter at a re-enactment involving scripted scenarios. It is hoped that with proper acclimation to drill and field situations, the measurable means which need to be accomplished will become mentally discernible to the participants on account of training at previous living history demonstrations. Light exposure at the former, however, oft times yields minimal results during the latter.

Ideally, tacticals, especially those which can be monitored and RECORDED by referees, ought to be the culmination of the experiences encountered at living histories and re-enactments. But again, it has been seen that being proficient at tacticals has a direct relationship and is a reflection, if you will, of what we have been instructed and have gained from the first two.

What we are taught and manage to learn at dance class becomes second nature and is readily apparent to the casual observer. Ordinarily, what one doesn't practice the particulars in class - they most likely will not employ them at the ball. No outpost study - little chance of lines of security. No flankers at re-enactments - no defense against flank attacks at tacticals. No means of documenting and thus ensuring camp access control - no telling how many outside agents are within your midsts. No functional field communicators at re-enactments - no eyes, ears and tongues when they would count most - referees don't much care for cell phones and radios - besides that's cheating (isn't it?).

So to answer your question Thomas, a tactical situation ought to be the crowning piece or pinnacle event of incorporating all that we have learned prior to attending one. In short, it's a building block affair. Sort of a worlds series, the play-offs being a bit more subtle then we win-you lose. But indeed, it is very much the same, for our own home runs are hit by what we have learned from history, of drilling on such as basis and how successfully we can then bring all such knowledge to bear at a tactical.

"The commissioned officers and enlisted men not fully prepared for duty were brought together in the camp [at New Orleans], and a regular course of instruction was commenced." History of the Signal Corps, USA, in the War of the Rebellion, by J. Willard Brown, 1896, p.615 ---

Excepting the presence of leaden projectiles, a well planned and monitored tactical can and ought to be as real as it gets. 3.3.3.

Walt

[skamikaze]

if you are looking for a good tactical weekend, check out Hope's Campaign in Elizabethtown, PA in late September.

www.hopescampaign.com

[Kevin O'Beirne]

I was wondering how tactical battles worked.

Most of 'em work like the powder-burning free-for-alls that they are, bearing little or no resemblance to Civil War tactics.

That's how most of them are. A very few are more controlled, and sometimes have judges or "OCs" (observer-controllers) who serve a role something like that of a referee and judge. In short, those with more knowledgable officers and those that do something to set expectations before the tactical starts (this often requires pre-event communication to officers and participants in general) are those that come a bit closer to Civil War tactics.

That said, most tacticals are based on a free-form battle type affair, and because there's no fear or bullets, the "battles" will always be the most inaccurate part of any event. While I'm certainly not saying that fear and bullets are good things, they did a lot "back then" to control the actions of the officers and men, and in a reenactor tactical there's nothing to keep participants from getting to close to the opposing side and small units taking risks that they very likely would never have considered taking in a real battle.

The problems of tacticals are inherent to tacticals; they are not unique to the type of reenactor ("mainstream" or "campaigner"); I know from firsthand experience that some "campaigner" tactical-type things have been just as silly as any "mainstream" tactical in which I've participated.

Personally, I still attend a tactical-type event here and there, but the longer I am engaged in this hobby the less satisfying and compelling such events are to me, and the sillier they look. Certainly no tactical in which I've ever participated over the past 15 years has given me particular insight into anything like what I've read in a Civil War history book, with the sole exception of a couple tactical "battles" at some Wilderness-themed large events I attended in the 1990s, where thousands of reenactors ran around some woods very thick with undergrowth for an hour or two each time; this, while very risky and injury-prone to an unfortunate few, did give me some insight into just how lousy the visibility may have been in the real battle of the Wilderness. However, the similarities between the battle of the Wilderness and the tacticals I attended pretty much ended with the smoke and leaves.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

A tactical reenactment is like real war, only without the killing and whatnot.

Wow, what events are you attending? In 15 years of doing this I really haven't attended a tactical yet that was like the real war without the blood and fear. All too often the officer-impressionists controlling the reenactors are, shall we politely say, severely limited in their knowledge of Civil War tactics and how they were actually used in the field, and even further limited in their ability to actually apply them in practice.

It works sometimes, but most of the time they don't because the rebs don't take their hits!:lol:

In the interest of fairness, almost every time I've partcipated as a Confederate infantryman, the Confederate reenactors complain about the Yanks not taking enough "hits" either. The issue seems to be endemic in the hobby regardless of what uniform one wears and what time period one reenacts.

Tacticals often remind me of playing "war" when I was a kid, when inevitably one reenactor (or kid) stands up and yells, "I got you!" and his opponent says, "Did not!" I've actually seen adult reenactors arguing like this at more than one event.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

The pre-dawn tactical at Cedar Creek is a classic. Mobs of guys blundering around in the dark, firing into your own men by mistake, loads of fun :)

The fun of the Cedar Creek tactical, and that at Mill Springs KY (which also includes pre-dawn foolishness) has caused me to remain in camp Sunday morning both times I attended Cedar Creek. Too much blundering around in the dark to be even remotely safe, with quite a few cowboys waving swords. Edged weapons, firearms, darkness, and slippery terrain with rock outcroppings don't mix well. Just my personal opinion, and I'm sure that the pre-dawn affair at Cedar Creek will continue for many years to come.

[Pvt Schnapps]

What Mr. O'Bierne said. The short answer to the question of how tacticals work is that, more often than not, they don't. A wise reenactor once said that we ought not do tacticals until we can get reenactments down.

Wait -- that was Kevin, too.

While I also enjoy a little shoot 'em up now and then, I find that the most exciting part of such is usually the part before the shooting starts, when you don't know where the enemy is or what's going to happen, and can cherish the fond illusion that somehow it will be different this time.

The greatest obstacle to both tacticals and reenactments is the lack of space and everyone's desire for "action," whether or not that reflects the reality of what happened in the field.

For example, try to imagine a late war event that went like the following description of combat by G. A. Sala in "My Diary in America in Wartime" (1864):


[in “How They Fight” pp. 388-389]

...One general has a notion that his adversary has massed large bodies of troops in a certain direction. His big guns thunder for a while in that direction, and then he hurls huge masses of his own troops against where the enemy is supposed to be.
They advance till they find the fire from the opposite but invisible side too hot for them. Then they retreat, slowly or quickly, in good or bad order, as their pluck and stamina may be strong or feeble. As the sound of their firing grows fainter, the opposite and still invisible foe advance. The next day you read in the newspapers that the Federals drove the Confederates, or vice versa, three miles. “Being driven” implies the idea of one man running away as fast as his legs can carry him from the hot pursuit of another man... But could any man, even with half a dozen pairs of air-pumps and as many pairs of bag-pipes for lungs, be “driven” three miles? A centipede couldn’t do it: Deerfoot would be winded at it; the steam leg would break down at it. So is it with the colloquialism, “The enemy are whipped handsomely.” The pugilistic gentlemen who keep the ring at prize fights manage to get a pretty good purchase with their gutta-percha whips, and a Cossack can reach far over the heads of a crowd with his sinuous lash; but it is difficult to realise the possibility of “whipping” an enemy whom you don’t see, and who is but just within rifle range. It would be quite safe to say that, save in isolated skirmishes, the Federals and Confederates have not crossed bayonets, nor the officers used their swords, half a dozen times within the last four years. Indeed, the belligerents very seldom see each other, much less look “at the whites of their eyes.” I asked an officer who had been all through the Potomac campaigns what the Confeds were like. “Well,” he says, “I’ve seen plenty of them dead; but alive and in masses, all I can say is that they have a kind of warm dust colour.”

[Shortround]

Guys (and some gals)

I live about 10 miles north on Onadaga, MI. Onadaga is a little town about 15 miles north of Jackson, MI.

There is a place we could reenact and it would be great for skirmishes. Specifically it would be great for raids. You could do the following eight items over two days:

1. Take a held bridge from enemy forces.

2. A raid on a supply area.

3. A raid to knock out an artillery battery.

4. A raid on a trench line.

5. A recon in force to observe a certain type of action.

6. An ambush.

7. React to a raid.

8. react to an ambush.

It would be really fun if you could find the type of operations order used by the US/Confederates in the 1860s.

Folks, if you had a group of umpires who knew what they were doing this could be way fun. It's one thing for your unit officers to parade around on the field and order you around. It's another when the umpire gives the commander a mission, wants the pull time at hour "x", and the poor commander has to live up to his rank. Those bars and oak leaves have to earn their keep during a good tactical. That's worth the price of admission to see :)

Remember, the big battles were only part of the army's time. Over half the time they would skirmish. That is the bread and butter of combat operations.

Bill Hensler
Holt, MI

[Lightningslinger]

if you are looking for a good tactical weekend, check out Hope's Campaign in Elizabethtown, PA in late September.

www.hopescampaign.com

Hi Eric,

Thanks for pointing out the September offering of Hope's Campaign. The images are superbly farmed, pleasing to the eye and would even make great in-close studies for an art class outing.

Correct me if I am mistaken but doesn't the 250 + acre lot being provided for this overland campaign event equate to about the same or perhaps even somewhat smaller that land masses that have been historically incorporated in many of the major re-enactment event sites? :-)

Just this morning, I consulted with one of the participants of the Brandy Station "Into the Wilderness" (ITW) event who mentioned that about 1500 acres had been made available for use of our re-enacting community. ITW almost made me feel like enough ground was 'almost' being provided to manoeuvre our own smallish numbers about the countryside.

Like a parody of the old WWI song might go, "How Ya Gonna Keep 'em Down on the Tactical Farm, After They've Seen Beyond the Postage Stamp Event Site?

I hope you all have a great event... and it appears that it is being conducted for a worthy cause too. Experiencing sufficient tactical grounds for Grande Manoeuvres though tends to spoil signal emulators. I'm still in recovery... ;-)

Walt

[Lightningslinger]

Wow,... In 15 years of doing this I really haven't attended a tactical yet that was like the real war without the blood and fear....

I can say that at "Into The Wilderness" I constantly experienced the fear of inadvertently exposing our forward positions, being over-run and losing the intelligence gathering advantage we were maintaining throughout the weekend event.

I don't care to reveal much of what the field communicators were able to accomplish at this event but I can say that many of the things we had read in the histories were suddenly ours to once again employ to good effect, from mapping to interpreting ground movements, gaits, noting locations of campfire chimneys, and much, much more. We were constantly peering through our own field glasses and expected to see our opponents staring back at us. It wasn't glamorous but t'was exceedingly rewarding to be on station, vigilantly on watch and knowing that we were making a difference (from a command perspective, referees too were keenly aware of an intelligence edge).

On occasion it got a bit scary. We were repositioning our stations of observation in cat-like manner and were keenly aware of the times when the wind had died down that might have reveal our somewhat-exposed positions with just the snap of a tree branch.

Walt

[Lightningslinger]

... There is a place we could reenact and it would be great for skirmishes. Specifically it would be great for raids. You could do the following eight items over two days:

1. Take a held bridge from enemy forces. 2. A raid on a supply area. 3. A raid to knock out an artillery battery. 4. A raid on a trench line. 5. A recon

Bill Hensler Holt, MI

Is there anyone here who had attended the Spruce Hollow affair north of Allentown, Penna? If so, what are your distant thoughts on what happened at this event? Some may have called this event a situational tactical?

Walt

[tompritchett]

Is there anyone here who had attended the Spruce Hollow affair north of Allentown, Penna? If so, what are your distant thoughts on what happened at this event? Some may have called this event a situational tactical?


This is the first that I have heard of the event and I am from the Lehigh Valley. Where exactly was it and who was the host unit. This may be something worth looking into for future schedules given the price of gasoline these days.

[Danny]

Guys...There is a place we could reenact and it would be great for skirmishes. Specifically it would be great for raids. You could do the following eight items over two days...

Whoah... have you seen any threads on liability?

In any event, tacticals for Artillery on the one hand can be very boring (because we are placed to defend an area which may not even be visited during the battle) or incredibly hard, because the guns are to be moved by prolonge during the battle as the command sees fit. Moving guns on the field by prologe or push is an exercise for stout-hearted men at the beck-and-call of a command that may know what the artillery is for, which can work really well, or they may not, in which case it's an incredible waste of time and talent.

Every reeenactor owes it to themself to participate in a tactical though, if only for the 3 a.m. call to a cold and wet mile march or to place battery, then to watch as the morning mist lifts to reveal movement, glinting rifles or cav, or cannons muzzles poised and pointed on the field...very cool.

Dan Wykes

[Lightningslinger]

... Where exactly was it and who was the host unit. This may be something worth looking into for future schedules...

Tom,

Does Kunkletown ring a bell? Spruce Hollow was the site of at least one maybe two major tactical events. I am aware that Allentown based Optometrist Don Chaputa and others were working on fixed positions for this event and that the National Regiment and the former 1st Brigade ANV were the two major command components.

Dave Pridgeon, then in command of the ANV's 5th Battalion, received permission from the event organizers to take a sizable group some 15-20 miles through the night in an encircling movement so as to be in readiness for pressing a stronghold position the next morning. It succeeded, the opponents not believing that such an effort would have been attempted by mere (or ought I say normal) re-enactors.

Walt

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Oddly enough, the flashes of "wow, that seemed kind of real" that I have caught at events have tended to come during the scripted battle scenarios, such as at Perryville 2002 or Payne's Farm 2005.

Tacticals never gave me any feelings like that.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Walt,

Several of the larger events I attended between 1993 and 2002 had at least 900-acre sites or larger, such as 135th and 140th Antietam (both held on the same 900-acre site). 135th Gettysburg was, I believe, on a larger site.

I believe that 140th Gettysburg in 2003 was on a site that was in the ballpark of 400 acres or so--my memory may well be faulty on that--and it struck me at the time that 400 acres was not even half the area need for an event with 10,000 participants.

Regarding Recon 3 "Into the Wilderness"--was that a tactical? I recall that, in the day, Tim O'Neill and the folks who ran the Recon series of events between 2000 and 2003 were adamant that those events were not tacticals.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

A wise reenactor once said that we ought not do tacticals until we can get reenactments down.

Wait -- that was Kevin, too.

Mike,

As I read the first sentence quoted there, I thought, "Darn, I wish I'd have said that." :)

One item that's struck me as a basic problem with tacticals, other than the fact that Civil War tactics are rarely used in them, as well as scripted battles is that few folks can "take a hit" like real soldiers did or behave properly afterward, or surrender (or take prisonesr, as the case may be). That fact of reenactor behavior is what led me to write the two articles/CRRC2 chapters on how soldiers behaved when wounded and how prisoners were "taken" and behaved. Folks in tacticals seem to like the action the most, but once it happens, few seem to know or care how to act when it starts.

Frankly, the free-for-all may be the most-accurate of the typical types of tacticals. I've also particpated in a very bizarre type of capture-the-flag in 1999, trench-warfare type tacticals (at Civil War events) where each side seemed to continually make trench raids in broad daylight and barter with opposing forces while standing up in no-man's-land (sometimes this was going on 100 yards away from where a trench raid was in progress!), and then there's the type of "tactical" that I call "Dungeons & Dragons" tacticals; viz., companies or platoons are sent out one by one on what is ostensibly a recon mission, in which they encounter a series of (often bizarre and usually entirely unrelated) "scenarios" where there's an alleged goal of keeping in first-person and behaving in an alleged period manner while attempting to fulfill some type of goal that is unknown to the soldier-impressionists who enter the scenario. Often these types of D&D tacticals go on for several miles and take hours. I've participated in such things in Ontario and Michigan that I can recall offhand, and heard (but never attended it) that these were modeled on the Carnifax Ferry "tactical" in the 1990s. Regardless, after the first one or two D&D tacticals in which I participated I tended to regard them with dred, because the purpose was either to trip up reenactors with idiotic scenarios, or make them figure out how to gain points instead of how to react in a period correct manner (for example, one I attended in Michigan required the platoon to charge a cannon that was manned and shooting at them--which would pretty much have never happened in the Civil War; I suspect hte scenario's authors as well as those participants who reacted to it as our platoon did--charging pell-mell without thought--did not know the effect of a single round of canister on a small number of charging infantrymen).

There may be other types of tacticals besides the free-for-all and its varianet with OCs; the D&D-style tactical; "capture-the-flag", and earthworks "tacticals". If anyone can think of 'em, post 'em here.

[Lightningslinger]

Oddly enough, the flashes of "wow, that seemed kind of real" that I have caught at events have tended to come during the scripted battle scenarios, such as at Perryville 2002 or Payne's Farm 2005.

Tacticals never gave me any feelings like that.

Don't get me wrong. I've had many message traffic moments of what I'd call suspense or anxious anticipation (except when Tom Willliams totally surprized me from behind during a Spruce Hollow event at full gallop with a well executed yell and descending sabre - I being totally focused on reading flag signals from the next ridge). We had been out without escort and paid the price.

However, seldom at an event have I quite had the fear of getting caught for the stealth operations I was involved with as at Into The Wilderness.

Wait! Come to think of it... Spruce Hollow was a tactical too.

Walt

[8thILCavalry]

A Tactical is like Paintball without the paint.

Rebs and Yanks never die, they all say "NA NA YOU MISSED ME!!!!"










.

[Lightningslinger]

Kevin ,

Isn't yours regarding a post I was replying to Eric Wilson concerning an invitation to participate in the late September Hope's Campaign tactical near Harrisburg. Their web site www.hopescampaign.com indicates that they have been provided with 260 acres on which to conduct their event. As to yours:

Several of the larger events I attended between 1993 and 2002 had at least 900-acre sites or larger, such as 135th and 140th Antietam (both held on the same 900-acre site). 135th Gettysburg was, I believe, on a larger site.

I suppose I wasn't looking to include the grounds encompassing the sprawling sets of tented camps, the vast parking areas, sutlers rows, invited paid spectator/guest viewing areas and such, but rather the somewhat smaller allotment of actual designated battlefield re-creations, e.g. manoeuvre arenas, during the historically scripted portions of such main-attraction events.

Regarding Recon 3 "Into the Wilderness"--was that a tactical? I recall that, in the day, Tim O'Neill and the folks who ran the Recon series of events between 2000 and 2003 were adamant that those events were not tacticals.

Sorry to say but I was but the head messenger boy at Recon III so you'll have to ask a higher authority about the event's classification as a tactical. I was somewhat always under the impression that it was, though.

I can point you to an after-action-report posted by one of that event's over-all commanders to see what kind of an event it appeared to have been to you.

www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-3480.html

Enjoy and Cheers!
Walt

[Lightningslinger]

A Tactical is like Paintball without the paint.

Indeed you are correct Sir. But I must point out that many of us have also seen some individuals make a large and colourful SPLASH at scripted scenarios too.

I really like your quote Brian ;) Is it copyright'd?

Walt

[3rd_PA_Artillery]

The pre-dawn tactical at Cedar Creek is a classic. Mobs of guys blundering around in the dark, firing into your own men by mistake, loads of fun :)

At Cedar Creek? Cool, I'd love to be in a tactical, and I guess Cedar Creek is my chance.

[skamikaze]

Hope's Campaign now has well over 300 acres, after the purchase and restoration of adjoining lands.




we still don't own the junkyard though (frown).

[Altecfive]

Not to be rude, but Kevin I swear you have nothing but a glass is half full approach in life. If people want to do tacticals, let them do it. What does it matter to you? I swear you roam the forums looking for who you can blow up because of your "superior" knowledge. I am sorry but it gets old.

Hope's Campaign runs a above par tactical. We do as much as we can as well as so do the units who participate to create an environment in which we can immerse ourselves into an 1863 atmosphere. Eric is right with the additions Hope's campaign is over 360 acres. We have done everything from simulating regiments on the march from different "roads" to pickets posted and actions happening that way. Well I love historical accuracy and scripted battles. Hope's Campaign weekend gives the officers, NCOs, and privates a chance to experience certain aspects of what it was like as a soldier. From hearing gun fire, but not knowing where it is coming from. Or being put in reserve while the main force is fighting. Best yet, having your regiment being pulled from the engagement because your ammunition was exhausted. These are just a few of some of the unique situations you will experience at Hope's Campaign.

[Rob Murray]

The problems of tacticals are inherent to tacticals; they are not unique to the type of reenactor ("mainstream" or "campaigner"); I know from firsthand experience that some "campaigner" tactical-type things have been just as silly as any "mainstream" tactical in which I've participated.


Kevin, I agree.

I, like WTH attended the Western Brigade tactical back in Oct. '96. It is one of the best events I have attended. NG judges and lots of them. They were also unobtrusive, you didn't know they were around until they came, tapped you on the shoulder and handed you your fate card. Multiple, large infantry battalions, cavalry, artillery and more movement than I care to remember. I talked to Chuck Warnick about this event a couple of years ago and found out all the stuff that went on behind the scenes. I'm pretty sure an event like this could not be done today.

I also attended ITW and while I had a good time, there is no comparing the two events.

Rob

[Pvt Schnapps]

Not to be rude, but Kevin I swear you have nothing but a glass is half full approach in life. If people want to do tacticals, let them do it. What does it matter to you? I swear you roam the forums looking for who you can blow up because of your "superior" knowledge. I am sorry but it gets old.


Not that Kevin needs any help from me, but since I pretty much agreed with his posts I thought I'd chime in on this.

Nobody's knocking tacticals, per se. I enjoy "capture the flag with muskets" myself. But we shouldn't kid ourselves into thinking that they accurately represent 19th century warfare. I see three huge challenges to such: distances (we're much too close most of the time), lack of any real danger (we don't behave like people who could actually get hurt), and anachronistic thinking ("Nam in wool" I think another philosopher called it).

That doesn't mean that tacticals can't be fun or that people shouldn't go and have fun.

It does mean that if we want to experience something like being on an actual civil war battlefield, a tactical probably isn't the place to go. On the whole we probably need to work on it more. I wasn't at Payne's Farm, but I understand from my friends that were there that the factors that made it memorable were the ranges (barely seeing the enemy increases the sense of being there), the fate cards, and the post-battle medical scenario.

All that said, I too have had a few moments at "tacticals." Recon III (note to Kevin: nobody ever told me it wasn't one :) ) had some great ups as well as a few dismal points. "War on the James" had a series of good encounters, very much enriched by a strong civilian component. But in both those cases the planners worked very hard for quite a while beforehand to do what they could to enhance the historical scenario. In my experience, that doesn't often happen.

I should add that if I can work it into my schedule I'd very much like to check out your event. It sounds like a great location and it should be the perfect time of year.

[Anders]

Hey love to see you at Hope's- blue or gray?

:)

Pards,

[Pvt Schnapps]

Hey love to see you at Hope's- blue or gray?

:)

Pards,

That far north, there just might be a chance to galvanize. Can you use a clerk with a scoped rifle?

[Altecfive]

Mike,

Understand I am not coming from this as a Tactical that happens at Cedar Creek or other majors. I look at this really through the eyes of the event I host. All of us involved in this event have truly tried to keep it accurate as possible. Coming from the army we conduct war games. Why? To help commanders put to use all those text books they read into practice. While you are right, people don't act like they would if real bullets are flying over their heads, but war games serve a purpose. Just as tacticals serve a purpose. What better way to experience or put into use real tactics or maneuvers they did back then to understand what they did. You are right, the average private is not going to duck or begin to cower because of the whiz of bullets over the head. Just as a commander may put his troops in more harms way because of not fearing the firepower being laid on him. You are right you cant experience some of those things. But, where else can a commander use all that knowledge that he gained from books and put it into practice. Sometimes its simple things. Chris Anders standing there with me on the site with his command staff talking about lugging artillery to a critical area and then having the engineers clear a field of fire for the gun. Something very unique as scripted battles you wouldn't have to worry about clearing fields of fire. Again, I am coming from the perspective of Hope's Campaign. Maybe it is a rarity in this hobby, but why people who go, want to come back. I hope to see everyone there. Infact I hope to hear anyone's input on how they could make it a true "gem" event.

[Tom Scoufalos]

That far north, there just might be a chance to galvanize. Can you use a clerk with a scoped rifle?

Actually, I'm not so sure! I was going to take a rare opportunity to wear the gray, but began to get the feeling that there was a preponderance of Confederates so recently offered to don the more familiar uniform. Either way, sounds like a good event; the fact that it is about a half hour from my home dosn't hurt, either ;-)

[Anders]

We could use some more blue, as I prefer to be outnumbered at least 2-1...

I cant speak for the Federals, but here is the basic lineup for CS troops

1st Battalion- CMF- Utz
2nd Battalion- CVG- Dangel
3rd Battalion- composite battalion led by Mike Lavis (first time in gray)

Sharpshooter Company- Hendricks

Mounted Forces- Bruno

And it looks like we might get the 1st PA arty as CS as well....

Mike and Tom you boys are always more than welcome, but if you want to run from us, that is fine too....

:p

Pards,

[Chuck A Luck]

...Chris Anders standing there with me on the site with his command staff talking about lugging artillery to a critical area and then having the engineers clear a field of fire for the gun...

Uh oh. Don't tell me we need to lug around axes! :p

[Anders]

Unless you wanna chew through trees like a beaver...if so I am sure both sides will stop and watch...

:p

[Altecfive]

Unless you wanna chew through trees like a beaver...if so I am sure both sides will stop and watch...

:p


If we are beavers we cant get shot then right??

[Julius]

This is a website of a tactical that I attended this year. This event has been going on for 10 years out here in Ca. It is a tactical with a history heavy approach.This year the orginizers choose to do a tactical based on the activities of oppossing forward patrol before the battle of Prairie Grove. The planning for this event began in April of 2007.
These events are invitation only. So you dont have a bunch a bad impressions running around burning powder and yelling I got you.


http://www.oaktac.com/index.html

[Tom Scoufalos]

Mike and Tom you boys are always more than welcome, but if you want to run from us, that is fine too....

:p
Pards,


Chris-

Just for that:



;-)

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Not to be rude, but Kevin I swear you have nothing but a glass is half full approach in life. If people want to do tacticals, let them do it. What does it matter to you? I swear you roam the forums looking for who you can blow up because of your "superior" knowledge. I am sorry but it gets old.

I'll offer this: it's a darned shame you view it that way. Like everyone else, I am entitled (so I believe) to my opinion and Internet forums are for folks to express their views.

Not that it matters to you or anyone else, but my views on life are decidedly not "glass is half empty". If you attended the types of events I do and saw how much I enjoy them, you'd certainly realize that.

If folks want to do tacticals, they are more than welcome to it. I am not under any impression that my views will keep folks who wish to reenact any way they want from doing so. Perhaps, however, you believe that my views are somehow not worth expressing, or that they might damage some part of the hobby that you hold dear? Got me as to why you'd write stuff like the quote above.

Finally, I suggest that, if you find my tone and posts so unattractive (i.e., that you think I am "blowing up" people on the forum), then I should think that you should cease reading my posts--it may make your experience on this forum a happier one. I know if you did it would certainly make MY forum experience happier.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

3rd Battalion- composite battalion led by Mike Lavis (first time in gray)

For what it's worth, I saw Mike in gray in 1995 at the annual Genessee Country Village event, and a couple times since. At least one of those times I believe he was a company commander.

Still, that man could afford to wear some jeancloth now and then. :)

[Kevin O'Beirne]

For those who may not recall, one square mile is 640 acres. Thus, a 250-acre site is just over a 1/3 of a square mile. In short, that's a piece of land about 3,300 feet by 3,300 feet, or about 0.62 miles by 0.62 miles; that's roughly one square kilometer.

Overall, not a bad-sized chunk of land and certainly enough to get lost in. Early in my career I did some site developments that were about 100 acres in size and those parcels seemed quite large to me.

[Lightningslinger]

For those who may not recall... a 250-acre site is just over a 1/3 of a square mile. ... or about 0.62 miles by 0.62 miles; that's roughly one square kilometer.

Overall, not a bad-sized chunk of land and certainly enough to get lost in...seemed quite large to me.

Don't know about getting lost in it but you might be able to hide for a while in it. I'm sure folks will appreciate having the smaller numbers that will look larger due to some of the close-vegetation of the site. As mentioned in a previous post, the photo images are tops and would grace any painting canvas. I was honour'd to have been invited to it.

All things being equal, however, most 250 acre land masses in the east are not equal as in squareness - for the most part, one would have to go considerably west to achieve such configurations.

But let's say that for conversation sake, this area were square. It would take somewhere near seven to eight minutes to walk the half-mile from one side to the other and let's say a little over half that at the double quick if not too impeded by un-even terrain.

The only thing I am saying in answer to your equations Kevin is that, personally, I appreciate the expansive areas far more often for tactical events (the subject of this thread). The almost-lineal tactical runs like that of a long-ago Rouzerville or what I had heard Land-Between-the-Lakes was supposed to have been, is more my cup of tea. Soon was it realized that orchestrating field communications on postage-stamp sites lost its charm for me long, long ago.

Success to You!
Walt
PS I always appreciate buying my telegraph wire in one kilometer rolls instead of one-half mile spools - I'm not certain but the messages seem to go a bit further that way. :wink:

Walt

[Rob Weaver]

In Pennsylvania, 250 acres is a pretty big chunk of farmland, especially in the northern county. In addition, a good part of it may be mountainous in the extreme and covered in virtually impassable stickers. A good thing to take into consideration is how much ground is tactically viable.
I like tacticals. The best part of them is before the shooting actually starts. The tension, the uncertainty. You throw out pickets because you need them. When the shooting starts, you really need umpires of some sort or it's just a grand version of cowboys and Indians. Fun enough, but ...

[Lightningslinger]

In Pennsylvania, 250 acres is a pretty big chunk of farmland, especially in the northern county. Fun enough, but ...

Glad you were able to differentiate the above for us Rob. Are you all on the Imperial Gallon standard in Penna too? Nonetheless, your rationale above ought to definitely change my perception of distances in the Northern County, if nothing else will. :wink: Classic! I love it!

Have a Good Evening My Friend,
Walt

[skamikaze]

There is plenty of land to get lost on. Lots of weaving paths, rock embedded hills and creepy pine forest. you cannot see a great distance in any direction whilst in the woods or on the trails. Federal camp is situated on an old farmstead, in an orchard, near a hayfield. Confederate Headquarters (will probably be on the move at any given time, now that i think about it) are in a cutaway clearing on a hilltop, with trails leading in and out.

Mr. Abel is very familiar with the property and his command, the 95th PVI, will be guiding the Federal forces through the terrain as well as assisting Mr. Baldwin in coordinating forces.

Mr. Anders has been about the property with his staff and has already cooked up many wild ideas and will be employing all branches in developing a strong assault.

Please visit the website for pictures and other info. Updates will be posted soon. Sorry for the delay, but the good Mr. Abel has come down with a case of fatherhood as of last month and has been busy with fatherly duties.

[Lightningslinger]

There is plenty of land to get lost on. Lots of weaving paths, rock embedded hills and creepy pine forest. you cannot see a great distance in any direction whilst in the woods or on the trails.

Sounds simply a-mazing. Lots of intrigue. Lots of possibilities and a good cause to boot. An infantryman's dream (not seeing a great deal in any direction makes it more intense). What more could you want? This could turn out to become known as the "Lost Weekend". ... and an experience to remember. :)

Much Success Eric,
Walt

[Altecfive]

Sounds simply a-mazing. Lots of intrigue. Lots of possibilities and a good cause to boot. An infantryman's dream (not seeing a great deal in any direction makes it more intense). What more could you want? This could turn out to become known as the "Lost Weekend". ... and an experience to remember. :)

Much Success Eric,
Walt


Walt,

You are right, it is the one of those weekends to remember. The largest field which the period barn sits on you could host cedar creek on it. The comment from everyone is this property is the wilderness. Sunken railroad bed with stone wall. The owner of the property has also added new hand land stone walls. I want to say its 200 yards in new stone walls. The 95th has been out there helping getting things done. Hoping to have new camping areas. I know the confederates who are campaigning have an incredible spot to throw gear, which is called the ardens(sp?) forest.

[Altecfive]

Please visit the website for pictures and other info. Updates will be posted soon. Sorry for the delay, but the good Mr. Abel has come down with a case of fatherhood as of last month and has been busy with fatherly duties.


Thank you Eric, I had a baby girl at 8 lbs 9 oz. But, as one of my guys has said I have failed in Operation Recruit Replacement Program or ORRP. Hahaha

[Anders]

The ground is amazing, and it is my goal to make it as interesting and intense as I can while keeping it historically accurate.

Moving forward there are plans to make it an or "the" annual tactical....looking to make this yearthe breakthrough year.

Seriously, it is a super great site, great folks, great cause and great time of year, so come on out , check out the web site, and join us.

Pards,

[Lightningslinger]

... The comment from everyone is this property is the wilderness. Sunken railroad bed with stone wall. The owner of the property has also added new hand land stone walls.

Courtney,

After reading Chris' below about the possibility of making Hope's an annual event, the inferred willingness of the land owner and yours above referring to the abandon rail road cut, I can offer you hope for some 1870's iron rail that would do well in size and shape for possible scenarios of period track construction and demolition. You'd have to find another source for cross-ties (sleepers) but could readily fabricate oak spice bars and inside metal back plates in lieu of the fancier rail chairs.

I have tucked away somewhere, the most supurb Claude Levet images of our track construction and bow-tie bending operations at the Camp Carroll 1863/1993 at Baltimore, Maryland.

Subsequent efforts to duplicate the attendance breaking 1993 event mostly failed to even materialize for a few years afterward but one of the meager efforts that followed had known built-in features that promised (or should I say ensured) failure too. The event hosts knowingly and deliberately supplied modern hard-rail (a type used for straight aways only) then stood back to watch the unsuspecting re-enactors not able to produce a successful bending demonstration for the public. I had predicted such would happen and stood off as a spectator in modern attire just shaking my head. Ah! History - and some of the little minds that try to control it.

Let me know if the rail sections (panels) might be what you'd want. ~~30~~

Walt
PS All of the period-era sixty pound rail I had secured AND DELIVERED for the hosts of Camp Carroll soon thereafter went for scrap. There was even some pre-war "U" and mushroom rail that went away in the piles. Pity.... The wooden pole monument with six or so sticks of rail wrapping around it was removed too and scrapped. All vestiges of the siding and a mile of telegraph poles have been wiped from the landscape and replaced with the most boringly straight track sections you ever saw . Oh Well! That's history.

[Altecfive]

Thanks Walt. I will send you a pm and we can chat about this, I will get the land owner involved and see what he feels.

[Lightningslinger]

Thanks Walt. I will send you a pm and we can chat about this, I will get the land owner involved and see what he feels.

Glad to know that we might possibly make this a doable task.

Here's the deal at present: After receiving word that the rail goes up the Susquehanna, a truck, ideally suitable with a 40 foot flat bed with forward bulkhead will need to be located, another set of calls will have to be made to line up your usual suspects. A hedge-hog trimmer would be nice to put on your we have list but may not be needed for rail pulling within certain sections. I'll get out to the site a few days after you get the green light and check. You might be able to secure a few panels now and some at a later time.

I am aware that there are others on this very board who can provide rail tongs, spike puller and lining bars for this project. A portable torch will be a must for removing splice bar bolts, e.g. rail joiners - but most of the spikes will pull like butter.

I'll call the land owner to-morrow.

Let's make it happen.

Walt

[creek]

Sir, this may not be on subject but I felt a need to share and hope you understand. A long time ago (1976) I was in a unit in North Carolina, some members would get together and skirmish at one guys grand dads farm. The place had great land lay, open and wooded with ravines and hollows. We had done this before with unit members, this time we split up about a dozen or so people and skirmished about all day, I was 24 years old and having all kinds of fun. Well it was fall and it got cold before late afternoon, time for one more hide and seek. Well I won't lead up anymore, guy with revolver shoots at guy wearing original 1870's musicians shell jacket who spins around and falls on ground. I'm thinking neat move, well he gets up quick and splits buttons off and tears the jacket open. He's got a blood blister under his collar bone as big as your thumb. Guy with revolver packed with modeling clay which got hard, hum. I felt pretty bad and went away knowing I'd never "play" army again. Nothing wrong with a tactical or such just keep safety in mind. Thanks .

[Lightningslinger]

Thanks Walt. I will send you a pm and we can chat about this, I will get the land owner involved and see what he feels.

Courtney,

I've just gotten off of the phone with the landowner who has the rail road components. We should have their answer by Saturday afternoon. They are also hoping that in exchange for the gift of rail, they might be provided with a donation-in-kind receipt for their tax records. Might one of your attending groups be such a tax-exempt organization?

I'm sending this message in the clear as I hope it will inspire others to know that Big Toy accomplishments can sometimes be achieved by regular folks asking out-of-the-ordinary questions and being surprised by the results. I've had success more times than not.

Case in point. I once told a certain non-profit org that I wanted to include a rail siding and switch (turnout) as part of the BIG TOY activities of an event we were planning the next year. Once I listened the attending staff chuckles die down about what had been asked, I got down to serious talk by saying... If I get the components donated, get it hauled to the site, provide a crew to
remove and re-install it and have it ready by event time would you accept it?

"Well of course we would but... " I stopped them and said then let it be done. And it was.

But that too was my event to co-ordinate then. I'll act as a lead man for you this time Courtney. You don't necessarily need to heap a rail and cross-tie laying project at your event this year but wouldn't it be a great addition to possibly do some put it down and tear it up later down the 'road'? :cool:

Walt

[Tarheel57]

Mike,

As I read the first sentence quoted there, I thought, "Darn, I wish I'd have said that." :)

One item that's struck me as a basic problem with tacticals, other than the fact that Civil War tactics are rarely used in them, as well as scripted battles is that few folks can "take a hit" like real soldiers did or behave properly afterward, or surrender (or take prisonesr, as the case may be). That fact of reenactor behavior is what led me to write the two articles/CRRC2 chapters on how soldiers behaved when wounded and how prisoners were "taken" and behaved. Folks in tacticals seem to like the action the most, but once it happens, few seem to know or care how to act when it starts....

It may be a bit presumptious of me to post an opinion since I have only attended one tactical. But I agree with your other posts concerning "realism" and tacticals. You also have a good point here. It drove me batty how many people would not stay with their file partners and wandered off to find their buddies; and how people would just not follow commands. I thought that "close up" mean to, well, close up, and "shift to the left" meant to do just that. Following the commands I suddenly found myself alone. Being tired and separated from my unit, hearing fire and shouting without being able to see anything but smoke and flashes of uniform through the trees, etc. made me think of what it may have been like in places like the Wilderness, that seemed a lot different from just reading about it. Then an officer ordered me to fall into a battle line with a unit of strangers. True, the reality was no doubt a far, far cry from this, but still, I am glad I was able to participate.

[Duff]

The tactical at Hope's was probably the highlight of last season for me and I am really looking foward to it again this year.

[bob 125th nysvi]

from this private's view I can see my tactical experiences being very similiar to a private's during the war.

For example I've read period references of guys 'bunching up' while moving in the face of the enemy. Didn't really understand that until during a tactical the company to my right bunched up on me (I'm always the right hand man in the file due to my height) and my company was forced into me from the left (both by terrain we were crossing). I got 'bunched' for sure.

I've been in tacticals when we (the privates) have seen something going wrong (like the enemy is right THERE on our flank SIR) and wondered why the officers didn't DO something about it. I can easily imagining privates in any war wondering what the blazes their officers were up to as the unit got into trouble.

I've been run all over the woods while either somebody trys to find their weak point or we try to prevent them from exploiting ours.

And I've also been marched away from point "A" only to wind up back there 20 minutes later either waiting some more or shooting at the enemy.

Yes they are powder burners (not with MY officers) and yes they are a little unrealistic because we have much greater freedom of manuver than probably occurred in 99.9% of all CW battles.

But I do think it is wrong to state they have NO value. I actually find them quite a lot of fun.

[8thILCavalry]

A Tactical is like Paintball without the paint.

Rebs and Yanks never die, they all say "NA NA YOU MISSED ME!!!!"
.


Indeed you are correct Sir. But I must point out that many of us have also seen some individuals make a large and colourful SPLASH at scripted scenarios too.

I really like your quote Brian ;) Is it copyright'd?

Walt



Nope, use it :D

[Anders]

I say this- Tacticals can be stupid, and often are. But good ones are worth more than gold.

It takes commanders with skill and a desire to do it right, over the desire to satisfy their ego, and the willingness of both sides to work together for a greater experience for the men in the ranks.

Once you have that, a few controllers never hurt either!

Pards,

[Lightningslinger]

The comment from everyone is this property is the wilderness [-] Sunken railroad bed with stone wall. The owner of the property has also added new hand land stone walls. I want to say its 200 yards in new stone walls. .

Courtney,

I visited the site with the light rail and there are a few placed it can be pulled out.

My contact said that I can expect more on releasing the rail to your folks on Monday. It may be that the landowner could/might supply a font-end loader with back bucket to make your job or retrieving the panels a bit easier. This isn't a given at this time though.

Your crew will need a portable torch or something to crack the bolt heads/nuts off of the rail joint splice/angle bars. As I mentioned to you before, others sympathetic to this board may have track tools to lend.

Will alert you as to the progress Monday of so. Get your crews lined up for a trip to the Baltimore area and secure the non-profit paperwork for an in-kind donation. Thanks,
Walt

[Lightningslinger]

Thank you Eric, I had a baby girl at 8 lbs 9 oz. But, as one of my guys has said I have failed in Operation Recruit Replacement Program or ORRP. Hahaha

I have the honour and joy to extend my best wishes and congratulations to you and your wife and be amongst those say'g - "Welcome Little Stranger".

I wish also to extend my congratulation to you and your 2008 Hope's Campaign event committee on obtaining the landowner's permission to enter upon their property to retrieve some of the 65 lbs wrought iron rail.*

Now we can begin to converse with you (Daddy?) or your designated event committee second that we may soon visit the site and obtaining a lay-of-the-land.

One minor restriction you, and your track-crew-to-be, can probably live with is -- the rail must be removed during a weekend so as to not interrupt normal weekday business.

Time to begin lining up those progressively-minded souls who will no-doubt assist with baking the Little Red Hen's bread wouldn't you say?

Cheers!
Walt

*The weight of a section of rail is measured by how much a three foot section of it weighs by itself.

[Lightningslinger]

Time to begin lining up those progressively-minded souls who will no-doubt assist with baking the Little Red Hen's bread wouldn't you say?
To: Courtney Abel

Greetings Courtney:

I hope the above line didn't throw a damper on an otherwise great opportunity for you and others to experience rail road track construction and demolition exercises as would have been conducted during the early 1860's.

I'm certain that the arrival of your newborn may well have thrown your household into a mild uproar but please do assign/suggest another of your 2008 Hope's Campaign committeemen (preferably in the greater Baltimore area) to begin communicating with me so that, in earnest, we can begin to line up the personnel, equipments and transports necessary to extract and re-locate the freely-given rail road components for your September event.

Please know me to be, very respectfully, your most obedient servant,

Walt Mathers
PS This missive is being provided 'in-the-clear' as part of a case study in re-enacting event logistics.

[Pvt Schnapps]

To: Courtney Abel

Greetings Courtney:

I hope the above line didn't throw a damper on an otherwise great opportunity for you and others to experience rail road track construction and demolition exercises as would have been conducted during the early 1860's.

I'm certain that the arrival of your newborn may well have thrown your household into a mild uproar but please do assign/suggest another of your 2008 Hope's Campaign committeemen (preferably in the greater Baltimore area) to begin communicating with me so that, in earnest, we can begin to line up the personnel, equipments and transports necessary to extract and re-locate the freely-given rail road components for your September event.

Please know me to be, very respectfully, your most obedient servant,

Walt Mathers
PS This missive is being provided 'in-the-clear' as part of a case study in re-enacting event logistics.

Let me see if I understand this. You're asking the event organizer (who I'm pretty sure already has his hands full organizing attendance and logistics) to travel to the next state with a tax-exemption receipt, blow torch, pry bar, work gang, and various heavy equipment items to retrieve 1870's era railroad iron that he can place somewhere on someone else's private land for later construction, after he finds a way to obtain or create the ties, restore the railbed, etc., so that maybe at some point they can demonstrate how to tear it up. Your own contribution to this effort has been to talk to the guy who is willing to part with the scrap.

It doesn't seem at all clear as to why this would constitute a useful expenditure of time and effort on the part of the organizer of the tactical. I could easily be wrong, though, in which case I would counsel you to be patient until he or one of his friends contacts you. There's no compelling need to discuss everything in public unless or until something actually happens.

[Lightningslinger]

It doesn't seem at all clear as to why this would constitute a useful expenditure of time and effort on the part of the organizer of the tactical.

Indeed Michael. I can see why it wouldn't seem very clear to you at present. Please be so kind as to re-read Courtney's earlier posts and perhaps it might become a bit clearer.

Who knows, you might become Courtney's agent in this affair and will be blessed with knowing all there is to know. In the interim, your inquiry is well received here for what it represents.

Walt
PS Bend any rail at a semi-scripted tactical lately Pard? ;) Trust me. You learn a few things you didn't previously know by doing it.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Indeed Michael. I can see why it wouldn't seem very clear to you at present. Please be so kind as to re-read Courtney's earlier posts and perhaps it might become a bit clearer.

Who knows, you might become Courtney's agent in this affair and will be blessed with knowing all there is to know. In the interim, your inquiry is well received here for what it represents.

Walt
PS Bend any rail at a semi-scripted tactical lately Pard? ;) Trust me. You learn a few things you didn't previously know by doing it.

Nope, the earlier posts don't make it clearer. All he said was he'd check with the landowner and get back to you. I have no interest in being his "agent" on this, because I don't see the point. For the record, I also have no interest in bending rail, nor in the interstate transportation of antique scrap, nor in trying to figure out, based on weirdly oblique comments, how all that's supposed to fit into a tactical. Got a few other things going on this summer and fall. Over and out.

[Lightningslinger]

Michael,

Yours...

Nope, the earlier posts don't make it clearer. All he said was he'd check with the landowner and get back to you. I have no interest in being his "agent" on this, because I don't see the point. For the record, I also have no interest in bending rail, nor in the interstate transportation of antique scrap, nor in trying to figure out, based on weirdly oblique comments, how all that's supposed to fit into a tactical. Got a few other things going on this summer and fall. Over and out.

...coupled with:

You are right you can’t experience some of those things. But, where else can [we] …use all that knowledge that [is] gained from books and put it into practice. Sometimes its simple things. …on the site - talking about lugging artillery to a critical area and then having the engineers clear a field of fire for the gun. Something very unique as scripted battles you wouldn't have to worry about clearing fields of fire. Again, I am coming from the perspective of Hope's Campaign. .

... might offer some 'perspective' , as Courtney puts it above, to explain your understanding of the activity "based on [seemingly] weirdly oblique comments, how all that's supposed to fit into a tactical."

Then again, some amongst our ranks may well be slightly suffering from a touch of "Little Red Hen" syndrome, with a dash of early how-can-we "Chicken Run" comments tossed in for good measure. If these inferences are yet a bit too oblique - do a Google search for the Little Red Hen. That might help explain "how all that's supposed to fit".

May our readers observe and decide for themselves.

"Over?" :cool:
Walt

[skamikaze]

While a railroad track would be very fitting in the railroad cut, I just can't think of a good scenario that would involve said track. There is already lots going on at Hope's and some sections of the property don't even get used. It would be a shame for us to lug all that track out there and have it not be a part of the action.

Maybe for another event that revolves around track construction/demolition (i.e. valley campaign, sherman's march etc.) but the draw to Hope's is that you don't know what is going to happen, and adding such a time consuming chore kind of limits the scenario.

Thank you for the offer, but I think track is better suited for another event.

Also, i don't want Mr. Anders getting any ideas about rail-mounted artillery shelling Federal HQ :)

[TheQM]

Courtney,


I have tucked away somewhere, the most supurb Claude Levet images of our track construction and bow-tie bending operations at the Camp Carroll 1863/1993 at Baltimore, Maryland.

Subsequent efforts to duplicate the attendance breaking 1993 event mostly failed to even materialize for a few years afterward but one of the meager efforts that followed had known built-in features that promised (or should I say ensured) failure too. The event hosts knowingly and deliberately supplied modern hard-rail (a type used for straight aways only) then stood back to watch the unsuspecting re-enactors not able to produce a successful bending demonstration for the public. I had predicted such would happen and stood off as a spectator in modern attire just shaking my head.

Walt


I was one of the rail benders during this aborted attempt at producing one of Sherman's neckties.

That rail rested in a roaring bonfire for the better part of a day. We attempted to bend the rail around a telegraph pole and managed to set the pole on fire! Did I mention the rail had been in a fire all day? My memory is we got that rail to bend into about a right angle; but could not get one more inch of "bend" out of that bad boy!

I have to say, it was fun trying!

[Lightningslinger]

While a railroad track would be very fitting in the railroad cut, I just can't think of a good scenario that would involve said track... at Hope's...

Maybe for another event that revolves around track construction/demolition (i.e. Valley Campaign, Sherman's March etc.) but the draw to Hope's is that you don't know what is going to happen, and adding such a time consuming chore kind of limits the scenario.

... I think track is better suited for another event.

Also, I don't want Mr. Anders getting any ideas about rail-mounted artillery shelling Federal HQ :)

Eric,

Thanks for the up-date. I guess the only thing that would be scripted at Hope's would be where to stay within the boundaries of the event site so as not to trespass out onto another land owner's property. :D

Speaking of railway activities for artillery operations though, I think that the two (I believe - 1862 cast) eight inch siege mortars which still border the Watson Mexican War Monument in Baltimore City could be pressed into service once again. Maybe not at Hope's but elsewhere!

The current city administration and some of what our state and local governments often refer to as "New Marylanders" could be more than willing to assist you in putting these monsters to better use outside of the city limits. With a big Battle of Monterey heave-ho spirit they might even throw in the monument too.

Just a future thought for our mental haversacks. Keep the siege guns in mind for future possibilities.

Walt

[Anders]

---Also, i don't want Mr. Anders getting any ideas about rail-mounted artillery shelling Federal HQ ---

Humm, that might distract them from the "observation" ballon fletchette attack...

:)

[Lightningslinger]

---Also, i don't want Mr. Anders getting any ideas about rail-mounted artillery shelling Federal HQ ---

Humm, that might distract them from the "observation" ballon fletchette attack... :)

Has there yet been mention of the see-through clear envelop - for tactically stealth balloon launches? :roll: Or is that being kept a secret until it goes aloft at event-time? Perhaps if discovered ahead of time the other side might re-consider making plans for obtaining the siege mortars. I'll have some available, albeit seldom-used, rail road crosstie tongs which may prove handy when used to load in the balls.

Walt