Lab report on blown India musket

[Phil]

Just thought this would be an interesting read to those who visit this forum: http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/special/HPWhiteReportWithPersonalInfoBlocked.pdf

[tompritchett]

Thank you. The report is very interesting especially the part about the probable obstruction and the "gray residue not at all typical black powder residue"

[Rob Weaver]

That failure to clean the piece contributed to its failure is interesting. We generally talk about the breech when discussing cleaning. This musket seems to have failed from an obstruction caused by buildup farther up the barrel. Blackpowder hardening of the arteries, if you will. A lesson for all of us to take inspection arms seriously.

[Tom Scoufalos]

Thank-you; I have been looking forward to the results of that analysis, and have been lurking on Rev War sites for awhile now awaiting just that.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Thanks!

IMHO, it still leaves more questions unanswered as it does answering any... other than there appears to have been an obstruction of some undetermined type, and that the steel's micro inclusions were not excessive, and that the steel's tensile strength is consistent with muzzleloading barrels.

For me personally, I would preferred greater depth such as a look at the Indian barrel making process to see whether the steel used was fashioned into a true "barrel" capable of handling pressures, with a breech plug, whether they are really not "proofed," etc., etc.. To say that the analysis of the steel is consistent with ML barrels, is the start, not the end of the inquiry.

If we do not believe the "gun's" owner, or hold him to be lying, a "barrel" blowing up (catastrophic faliure) or rupturing after a few blank rounds is still a cause for concern and calls for testing and more questions to be asked and answered. (Which I do not see as forthcoming...)

However, that is me personally, and others will get what they want from the limited depth report to justify, or not justify, using Indian "imports."
And, of course, as always others' mileage will vary...

CHS

[reb64]

Just thought this would be an interesting read to those who visit this forum: http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/special/HPWhiteReportWithPersonalInfoBlocked.pdf


Is this involved ins some sort of lawsuit/? was the rifle refused repalcment under warranty?

[Phil]

I really couldn't tell you. Information about this incident is very hard to come by. Up until now, all we knew is that it seemed someone wanted us to believe that new Indian repro muskets will blow up with blank rounds when safely loaded by experienced reenactors.

[bob 125th nysvi]

us is to let the experts have there look at what happened and to ignore the 'experts' who inhabit these boards and also have an agenda.

I'm sure that the plaintiff's attornies will find there own experts to 'prove' the gun was defective and the manufacturer and importer are liable.

IF (and that is a HUGE if on the intenet) the report is genuine then (at least in this case) there is NO proof that 'Indian' muskets are defective products.

Didn't think so since the local metal smiths have been producing military quailty weapons since well before Alexander 'discovered' India.

Unfortunately though it is too easy to bash people from other countries.

Also unfortunately it looks like someone in OUR community doesn't know how to care for a weapon. They need to look at themselves and not others to blame and be thankful that no one was killed.

[jurgitemvaletem]

I really couldn't tell you. Information about this incident is very hard to come by. Up until now, all we knew is that it seemed someone wanted us to believe that new Indian repro muskets will blow up with blank rounds when safely loaded by experienced reenactors.

Honestly what I get from this article is that it less to do with the safety quality of the firearm itself than the maintenence provided by the owner. For some reason I get the feeling that this could have just as easily been the an armisport or a euroarms, given that the owner provided the same maintenece.

[Stickbug]

Me wonders if the usual charge of powder was used too. If there was a constriction of the barrel from careless maintainence, could there have been a double or even triple charging that contributed to this failure?

Nice to hear that the steel seems to be up to spec though.

[amontalvo915]

Could this have been an artificial black powder? Maybe he ran out of regular black powder and dropped a couple of pellets down the barrel.

[Slickrick214]

The whole thing sounds like a user problem not a manufacturing problem. Of course the Indian made guns still are weaker and shouldn't be used to shoot blanks or live rounds. It sounds like this guy never clean his gun causing it to eventually explode. With that said I still would never buy an Indian made gun for either shooting or wall display. I would spend the extra money and get something made here in America or one made in Europe.

[bill watson]

"Honestly what I get from this article is that it less to do with the safety quality of the firearm itself than the maintenence provided by the owner. For some reason I get the feeling that this could have just as easily been the an armisport or a euroarms, given that the owner provided the same maintenece."

Lack of maintenance seems to be only a plausible and charitable explanation offered by the investigator, not a definite thing.

I'm trying to remember if this weapon cracked the first time it was fired at this event or after several firings at that event.

If I were this guy I'd be alarmed and want to know what the heck that grey residue might be, especially if he's not the guy who put it there.

[bob 125th nysvi]

Of course the Indian made guns still are weaker and shouldn't be used to shoot blanks or live rounds.

is exactly the type of nonsense the report refutes.

It clearly states that there was NO failure in the metal and the break was due to a blockage.

And then you agree with the report.

The whole thing sounds like a user problem not a manufacturing problem. ..... It sounds like this guy never clean his gun causing it to eventually explode.

The "India muskets are defective" nonsense was the original claim refuted by the report. Yet you try to reraise a dead horse.

Can't have it both ways Sir.

The musket failed due to apparent maintence/user failure and you accepted that.

You can not then turn around and make an unsubstantiated assertion to support a dissproven point!

[Julius]

is exactly the type of nonsense the report refutes.

It clearly states that there was NO failure in the metal and the break was due to a blockage.

And then you agree with the report.



The "India muskets are defective" nonsense was the original claim refuted by the report. Yet you try to reraise a dead horse.

Can't have it both ways Sir.

The musket failed due to apparent maintence/user failure and you accepted that.

You can not then turn around and make an unsubstantiated assertion to support a dissproven point!

I have a problem with the report concluding that the rupture was due to blockage. Was is a round after all but blockage.
As far as the grey substance in the barrel........sounds like black powder fouling to me.
But what do I know. I am just a guy that only has 19 years experience with black powder arms.

[tompritchett]

Of course the Indian made guns still are weaker and shouldn't be used to shoot blanks or live rounds.

As I read the report, the analyses of the metal of the barrel found no defects nor did it find any difference between the composition of the alloy and other alloys used typically in blackpowder barrels. Furthermore, upon microscopic examination, the author did not find any adnormalities in the crystalline structure that would indicate any inherent defects in from the formation of the metal alloy.

It sounds like this guy never clean his gun causing it to eventually explode.

I think that we are all probably in agreement with that.

With that said I still would never buy an Indian made gun for either shooting or wall display.

That is your option, especially given the fact that certain vendors are using barrels that have no documentation that the barrels were ever proofed. However, there is nothing in the actual analysis of the barrel that would support your assumption that the analyzed Indian barrel was inferior in safety quality to a typical European made barrel.

[Slickrick214]

is exactly the type of nonsense the report refutes.

It clearly states that there was NO failure in the metal and the break was due to a blockage.

And then you agree with the report.



The "India muskets are defective" nonsense was the original claim refuted by the report. Yet you try to reraise a dead horse.

Can't have it both ways Sir.

The musket failed due to apparent maintence/user failure and you accepted that.

You can not then turn around and make an unsubstantiated assertion to support a dissproven point!

actually you can have it both ways. What IF the barrel was junk and the person never cleaned it. Either one can cause an explosion. IF that was the case then you can have it both ways. I like how people on here talk about how junky Indian made guns are then when something like this happens people compeatly ignore everything they said in the past and make up some whole new story.

[amontalvo915]

I believe the lab report is extremely clear about the quality of the barrel. IF the barrel was junk, it would have split at the seams. I personally only will use Indian muskets from Loyalist Arms, and probably would not be privy to use one from anyone else, but I am seesawing on this topic.

On one hand, not only is the steel of normal black powder musket strength, but the muskets are constructed in the way the originals were, unlike the Italian reproductions which are just a pipe drilled out to the correct caliber. I absolutely hate the fact that they are all made in smoothbore, but it is easier to clean. They don't really need as much "de-farbing" as the Italian repros (Enfields) because unlike them, they are NOT based on the English Parker Hale reproductions, but they are based upon the originals themselves.

They offer many models of muskets of which we cannot find anywhere, save some from Pendersoli, which are $1000+. I stated earlier that I would much rather people pay an extra $100 rather than buy an Indian/Pakistani musket, but I have owned two muskets from them (of which no other reproduction exists, the Lorenz and 1840) and they were WONDERFUL. I cleaned them and I was extremely careful on maintenance.

I proofed them (although the proof markings are all over the bottom of the barrel) with a double wad of a blank, as I was never going to live fire these muskets, and they held wonderfully, not even kicking like a mule like my Italian Springfields and Enfields did. From my experience with them, they handled pressure very easily and without a problem.

My wife personally nearly had an Italian musket nearly explode in her face when it was not cleaned (loaner musket) for some odd reason, not by her, and it was misfiring and had about 4-5 loads in it, as they were firing by battalion and she had not known they were not going off.

I have seen some very poorly made Italian reproductions, and I have seen some extremely well made Indian/Pakistani reproductions. This will probably be an ongoing debate between reenactors as is the campaigner/hardcore vs. the mainstreamers and farbs.

One thing to note though...Our lovely fellows in Europe have been using them for quite some time, and as of yet, we have not heard them chime in with any horror stories.

[Iron Brigade Al]

Hi there Folks

I would just like to state that I have been re-enacting the American Civil War over here in England for over 10 years and have always used Indian made Enfields. I have never heard of anyone having any problems with them save misfires. I have found them to be sturdy weapons, easy to clean and maintain and I have never heard any tales of them exploding on anyone over here. The quality of weapons imported into Britiain is very high as they are rigorously tested, proofed and only then put on sale. We have some excellent traders here who would not dare put their reputations on the line by cutting corners regarding safety. A friend of mine bought a filthy and outwardly nackered 1842 Springfield, been in someones cabinet for years. Once cleaned properly and everything it worked like a dream and hasn't had any problems yet.
Operator error aside could some traders be buying second rate weapons over in the states? I've heard of other barrel bursting episodes over there. I dont know. But it seems to me that sutlers etc have changed little with time since the 19th Century, some will still sell you crap and get away with it, and some will sell you top grade stuff which is well worth the investment.

Just my thoughts on this one.

Alistair Wilson
Co. A 19th Indiana Volunteers (UK)