Period Shirt Question

[JS1861]

I've got a Shirt question. I've got a Cotton/Muslin shirt, that laces with a string instead of Buttons. I have been told that it is Period, and I have been told that it isn't. Any opinions here???

[Silas]

Hard to say what it is without a picture of the shirt and some idea about its measurements. Ought to be layed flat and photographed. Thoughts on Men's Shirts is the best published source on the market about what shirts were common in the periods just before, during and after the CW.

[GaWildcat]

I would recommend a look at original images, as well as the extant examples in EOG, and those in the hands of museums. I have not come across a shirt yet that laces (other than the Johnny Yuma shirt;) )

Perhaps Ross will chime in, being the resident shirt expert, but It don't sound right.

[TobiasJones]

I'd go with buttons (bone, shell, white glass) on a CW shirt. I don't have with me my Thoughts on Mens Shirts but I'm pretty sure it went out before our time period.

Evan O'Dell

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

What you have is the Hollywood version of a period shirt. Gary Cooper and John Wayne kept that shirt in the forefront of 19th Century fashion, without any base in fact. There were indeed some lace-up type shirts in the 18th century (1700's), but prior to the Revolutionary War period. By the mid 1700's, shirts were primarily using buttons at the collar and cuff. The book "Thoughts on Men's Shirts" has an extensive collection of shirts from the late 1700's to the turn of the 20th century, none of which had a lace-up type of placket. You are much better served to find a shirt with a button placket or fold over placket front for the Civil War period.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

I did some further research after posting the above statement, and I did find some reference to a lace-up shirt during the period, just not an undershirt or "regular" shirt to be worn under a coat or jacket. I found a period overshirt that had a lace-up front with a total of ten sewn grommets (5 on each side of the opening). It had a rectangular collar, meaning it didn't have a curvature or slight opening at the throat, just folded over itself like a Federal issue shirt, and it is attributed to an artist. I think it is some type of artists smock or overshirt due to its long cut, high side vents, and voluminous sleeves with alot of gathers and pleats. It has a solid 1850's-60's provenance, but is made from older, outdated fashion. Who is to say there weren't any lace-up shirts during the CW period, but I would have to still say they are very uncommon.

[Slickrick214]

I don't know a ton about Civil War shirts but I'm pretty sure that lace up shirts are more accurate for the French and Indian and Revolutionary War time period. By the time of the American Civil War shirts had glass, bone or tin buttons.

[Rob Weaver]

I can also point you to a couple of pictures of cowboys in lace-front shirts, but I wouldn't date those pictures any earlier than the late 1880s. In the mid-century, men's shirts fasten with buttons.

[mboyce]

I don't know a ton about Civil War shirts but I'm pretty sure that lace up shirts are more accurate for the French and Indian and Revolutionary War time period. By the time of the American Civil War shirts had glass, bone or tin buttons.

Lace up shirts aren't even accurate for those eras. Common shirts of this era may have had a single button at the collar, or no button at all. The collar would have been kept closed using the stock (cravat).

[Slickrick214]

Lace up shirts aren't even accurate for those eras. Common shirts of this era may have had a single button at the collar, or no button at all. The collar would have been kept closed using the stock (cravat).

I wouldn't be so sure about that. While most of the shirts from those periods would have used one button or a cravat there were some shirts that used leather ties to close the front. These shirts were known as hunting shirts. They were a pull over shirt made of heavy natural linen with a laced up front for neck closure. They were used mostly during both the French and Indian and Revolutionary time period. Heres a picture of one made by C&D Jarnagins.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g112/Slickrick214/huntingshirt.jpg

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Those are rifleman's or hunters frocks, designed to be worn as an outer garment, not a shirt. A man would still be wearing a shirt underneath that garment. A frock is a laborer's or worker's garment to be worn in lieu of a coat or jacket when in the field. This is indeed a Revolutionary War and before garment, but they saw consistent use through the War of 1812 with militias, the Florida War of the 1830's and 40's, and even a small handful of men in the Civil War on an individual,very rural basis, but they were very outdated fashion-wise by this period, and were never worn as just a shirt. I would also caution that very few of these garments utilized the lace-up style, as most just closed only with a belt, sash, or other device, not sewn directly to the garment.

[Silas]

But, Ross, a sutler sells 'em! They must be okay. Just because you don't carry 'em doesn't mean they're not okay for CW period.

Who are you compared to Jarni? After all, Jarni has been around much longer than you, and he's got a physical address. I've even driven past it a couple times. You're just some internet dude with a funny hat picture and Cap'n Ahab beard. What do you know?

[jademonkey]

Slickrick -

If you are interested in an 18th - early 19th century hunting shirt or frock i'd suggest contacting Henry Cooke in Randolph, MA. Not sure what/who Jarnigan copied for that one pictured.

[Phil]

That rifle frock probably predates the ACW by about 80-100 years or so. Yes, the style did exist before the War, but it changed a lot in the years in between, and had lost quite a bit of popularity to the point of being not something many folks wore in the 1860's.

Most of the ones I've seen in original artwork and illustrations don't have ties in the front, leather or otherwise.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

But, Ross, a sutler sells 'em! They must be okay. Just because you don't carry 'em doesn't mean they're not okay for CW period.

Who are you compared to Jarni? After all, Jarni has been around much longer than you, and he's got a physical address. I've even driven past it a couple times. You're just some internet dude with a funny hat picture and Cap'n Ahab beard. What do you know?
Silas, you have indeed put me in my place. Flattery will get you everywhere. It is sad but true, the things I make are sold from the back of my car in dark alleys and are not in the same league as Corinth's own purveyors of all things historical. And my hats not funny, just the person in it.

With all seriousness, Jarnagan's takes a bad rap on some things, but as with all vendors, myself included, they make some things better than others, some of which are outstanding and others not so good. Also keep in mind that Jarnagan makes things for multi time periods from French and Indian Wars to post CW, so that hunting frock is correct for a time period, just not our time period. I'm not around my library which is currently in the possesion of my ex until I can go up and get it, but I know of at least three images attributed to southern militiamen during the CW or just prior to it who are wearing fringed hunting frocks, but with a more tailored, tighter appearance , but without laced-up fronts. They were around, but very, very uncommon, due to the above mentioned point that they were several decades out of style. Fashion then, like today, can get strange, as there were still old men in the 1860s who preferred drop front trousers to button flys, and those were going out by the late 1830's to early 40's in America - to each his own!

[Rob Weaver]

The wonderful Chapman portrait of David Crockett was painted just before he left for Tejas in 1835, and Davy posed in his own clothing - leggings and moccasins, hunting shirt and bag, rifle. Heck, I think the dog was his too. It's a great snapshot of what a hunter looked like. Crockett is wearing a hunting shirt of the pull over variety, with a single cape. He's also a little paunchy from those years in Congress! Although this is 1835, I think he's reflecting an older style, being 54 at the time. What you're really looking at is what a hunter wore in the 1815-20 time span. The shirt doesn't lace up. In fact, that affectation is so rare that I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it just didn't exist in the 18th and early 19th century when the hunting shirt was worn as a working garment. I can document it to the late 19th century, but here I think it's a fad or affectation of a certain profession, namely cowboys. By and large I wouldn't recommend it unless the rest of your impression were consistent with that background.

[Slickrick214]

Those are rifleman's or hunters frocks, designed to be worn as an outer garment, not a shirt. A man would still be wearing a shirt underneath that garment. A frock is a laborer's or worker's garment to be worn in lieu of a coat or jacket when in the field. This is indeed a Revolutionary War and before garment, but they saw consistent use through the War of 1812 with militias, the Florida War of the 1830's and 40's, and even a small handful of men in the Civil War on an individual,very rural basis, but they were very outdated fashion-wise by this period, and were never worn as just a shirt. I would also caution that very few of these garments utilized the lace-up style, as most just closed only with a belt, sash, or other device, not sewn directly to the garment.

O ok. I saw a re-enactor wearing a shirt like this at a Revolutionary War event and I think thats all he was wearing. I'm almost positive he was not wearing a one button shirt or a shirt with a cravat underneath. Thats where I got the impression that this type of clothing was worn as a regular shirt would be worn.

Slickrick -

If you are interested in an 18th - early 19th century hunting shirt or frock i'd suggest contacting Henry Cooke in Randolph, MA. Not sure what/who Jarnigan copied for that one pictured.

No not really. I'm more interested in 19th century clothing. I was using that hunting shirt to try to make a point but it was all wrong anyway. I'm not sure who Jarnagins copied it from. Maybe Les Jensen did the research I don't know.

[Julius]

I can also point you to a couple of pictures of cowboys in lace-front shirts, but I wouldn't date those pictures any earlier than the late 1880s. In the mid-century, men's shirts fasten with buttons.


Were these cowboys eating pudding?

[jademonkey]

Were these cowboys eating pudding?

Excellent "South Park" reference.

[Phil]

The wonderful Chapman portrait of David Crockett was painted just before he left for Tejas in 1835, and Davy posed in his own clothing - leggings and moccasins, hunting shirt and bag, rifle. Heck, I think the dog was his too. It's a great snapshot of what a hunter looked like.

It was his? I've got an article with a quote attributed to Chapman that says the Congressman wanted a painting depicting him as an outdoorsman, and it took quite a bit of searching to find a shirt like that in Washington. I might have to transcribe the quote, it's kind of interesting.

[Rob Weaver]

Turns out you're right and I've been mistaken. Nevertheless, it is a great snapshot of the man. Here's the picture we're discussing:
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