Spectators Dressing Like Reenactors?

[Poor Private]

On another forum there is a discussion goin on about the spectators going to reenactments and dressing. Dressing in farb to PEC. Do the spectators who "dress up" help our hobby or hinder it? Should they be allowed to come dressed, after all they are spectators not "part of the show". Do they enhance the event?

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Its a free country, so everyone has the right to dress as they see fit within local ordinances when they attend events. I've been seeing spectators dress in everything from the leather kepi with crossed rifles on the top all the way to some pretty outstanding progressive kit. These people have their own reason for wanting to dress like that, as they all have differing ideas of supporting history. Most people who attend our events have some interest/love of history, and that is their own way of showing that support. Do they enhance our events - no, but the only people they bother are us the reenactors, and thats only if you let it. Some of them are potential recruits, some have absolutely no interest in reenacting at all, and that's fine too. I think we have much bigger problems educating out fellow living historians than worrying about what a spectator wears.

[tompritchett]

On another forum there is a discussion goin on about the spectators going to reenactments and dressing. Dressing in farb to PEC. Do the spectators who "dress up" help our hobby or hinder it? Should they be allowed to come dressed, after all they are spectators not "part of the show". Do they enhance the event?

One reason why spectators may be dressing up at some events is that they are registering as reenactors rather than as spectators. At events like Gettysburg and others, registering thus can often result in substantial savings. For example, buying a 3 day spectator advanced ticket for Gettysburg costs $57.00/adult while that same adult can register as a reenactor for $25.00. Second when a unit guest registers as a reenactor, that guest still has access to the camps even after the camps are closed to the public. Back before my wife actually started reenacting in my current unit, when she would come down to see one of our reenactments with my prior unit, we would always have her register as a reenactor just for the two above units. I am sure that my former and current units were not the only units to figure these advantages out just as I am sure that other non-unit-affiliated spectators have also discovered these advantages, especially at large events, such as Gettysburg, that have no event level enforcement of authenticity standards.

[Charles Weathers]

I come from a Renassaince reenacting background where we encourage spectators to dress up. It not only pulls them closer to actual participation but the longer they do it the more accurate they want to be and the more they want to learn about the history. I know lots of people that started out as dressed up spectators and eventually became full members of the Faire. We should always encourage a love of history!

[plankmaker]

Seeing some of the getups worn by spectators at some events (mainly Gettysburg and New Market), I'm not sure I'd encourage them to participate in much. The guy who wore what looked like a small dog on his head at Gettysburg always made me shake my head. "Hey Mister, did you know you have a critter on your head?"

Mark Campbell
Piney Flats, TN

[captdougofky]

I've had them stand behind the cannons at times. They've had an ancestor who served in Artillery and they just want to show respect. I have no problem with that as long as they stay out of the way. Like one poster said, they may make a recruit. It does seem like the one's I've dealt with do have a lot of rank.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons Battery CS
Kentucky

[Robert A Mosher]

I've been at events where such folks have on ocassion been a problem by attempting to participate or just mixing in with the reenactors. While they might be accurately dressed and even equipped, they don't know the scenario and often introduce a troublesome element by contributing to the busting of the scenario. Has anyone experienced this problem and how did you deal with it?

On a related but not identical situation, we once found ourselves with two Robert E. Lees. One of them was an approved participant and the other was an unregistered 'walk-on' who had to be removed more than once and parked among the spectators.

Robert A. Mosher

[tompritchett]

I've been at events where such folks have on ocassion been a problem by attempting to participate or just mixing in with the reenactors. While they might be accurately dressed and even equipped, they don't know the scenario and often introduce a troublesome element by contributing to the busting of the scenario. Has anyone experienced this problem and how did you deal with it?

There is one teenage "reenactor" here in the Lehigh Valley who tries to pull off an early Grant impression. and, on occasion has tried to insert himself into Living History discussions and scenarios. Needless to say, to date, his impression has not even been close to being authentic (e.g., use of velco to hold his frock coat closed). At events where reenactor access is controlled, he is currently banned from registering as a reenactor ("specialty impressions must be pre-approved by event staff") and is not allowed to cross the registration point as a spectator if in uniform.

[tompritchett]

Seeing some of the getups worn by spectators at some events (mainly Gettysburg and New Market), I'm not sure I'd encourage them to participate in much.

Given the difference in prices for a 3 day spectator ticket and a reenactor registration at Gettysburg, it is not surprising that you would see such getups at Greedsburg. As far as "participation", if the individual is neither a guest member or an actual member of the units involved, IMHO, any participation of such individuals could carry serious liability issues if either that individual or a member of the public becomes injured.

[johnduffer]

While doing company drill at the Sam Davis Home I noticed we had about an 18 year old "general" marching beside us pointing directions with his sword. I did a by company into line which effectively ran over him and he decided to watch from the sidelines. :)

John Duffer

[Che]

You think its bad at CW events? Go to Tombstone, Arizona in October for the OK Corral annivesary sometime. Anyone that has anything like a western outfit is there and ready to jump in to help out either the Earps or the Clantons depending on who they think the good guys were.

[Sarah Jane Meister]

I started out as a dress-up spectator. Before we even attended our first event as spectators I made my brother a 'Davy Crockett' type shirt (haha) that he wore. I told him we'd buy a lace to lace up the front at the event. The sutler we bought the leather shoelace from couldn't understand why we wanted just ONE shoelace. The next year I had made a dress and wore that with a sutler hoop and straw hat. The next year I had progressed a lot on my road to accuracy and from there; it's history. :)

I think a LOT of reenactors start out as dress-up spectators. My mother in law and her boyfriend came to an event with us last year. They stayed only for one day and payed the spectator admission. Yet because they were in costume (although a mix of goodwill/garage sale things and hand me downs) they were able to eat with us and particpate in other activities for just the reenactors and they had a ball. Now they are coming with us to events this year (properly clothed, now!) but they wouldn't have known they'd like it so much if they had come as just spectators and hung around watching the demonstrations. Participation and feelings of 'belonging' really played a huge part in their experience.

Sarah

[tompritchett]

I think a LOT of reenactors start out as dress-up spectators. My mother in law and her boyfriend came to an event with us last year. They stayed only for one day and payed the spectator admission. Yet because they were in costume (although a mix of goodwill/garage sale things and hand me downs) they were able to eat with us and particpate in other activities for just the reenactors and they had a ball. Now they are coming with us to events this year (properly clothed, now!) but they wouldn't have known they'd like it so much if they had come as just spectators and hung around watching the demonstrations. Participation and feelings of 'belonging' really played a huge part in their experience.

There are definite advantages for guests of a unit to come "in costume" such as you elaborated, especially when members of the unit help them with loaner outfits and such. It is the non-unit affiliated dress-ups who try to portray reenactors that sometimes make me a little nervous.

[reb64]

On another forum there is a discussion goin on about the spectators going to reenactments and dressing. Dressing in farb to PEC. Do the spectators who "dress up" help our hobby or hinder it? Should they be allowed to come dressed, after all they are spectators not "part of the show". Do they enhance the event?


Its all in good nature , so why the heck not. besides those cheesy sevens and leai in metal bikinis sometimes look nice

[reddcorp]

We had a middle-aged fellow come to an event a few years ago dressed in a splendid general's uniform, a well-made, correct uniform that he had spent more than a few bucks on.
The "General" presented himself in our camp and requested a company of men to command during the event. And, I might add, he was very serious about his "command" and highly incensed when we declined to assign men to him. No one knew this fellow or anything about him. I've wondered what became of this fellow.

A.Redd

[Poor Private]

Redcorp.
I actually feel the same way when a person who registers for an event shows up wearing an officers uniform, and is not affiliated with any of the units at the event and demands/expects to be in command of troops. If the Fella wants to command troops have him bring his own.
Isn't it enjoyable when you have 3 Grants, 2 Lincolns 4 generals , wandering thru the camps and expecting to get salutes at every chance meeting. And wooooh what happens when they stand and talk to each other? Dopplegangers? It almost feels like a Holloween party. Has any event sponsor turned back a spectator for this reason? Saying something like "I am sorry we already have 1 representive Lincoln, you cannot come in dressed as him, but if you wish to wear street clothes you are more than welcome."

[Rachal]

Andy, don't feel bad. We had a fellow with a rather dubious reputation among reenactors in our area show up one year with his new Officers uniform and told us that he was our new commander. Of course his uniform was a real dandy complete with Jeb Stuart thigh boots. We had a laugh until we found out that he had been going around telling everyone that would listen that he was our commander. It took us a while to get that situation corrected. We finally went completely Union and that took care of him. He was one of those kind that refused to "dishonor" his ancestry by wearing blue. It is bad enough when spectators try to pull something that ridiculous, but when reenactors do it ...

[Duff]

Andy, don't feel bad. We had a fellow with a rather dubious reputation among reenactors in our area show up one year with his new Officers uniform and told us that he was our new commander. Of course his uniform was a real dandy complete with Jeb Stuart thigh boots. We had a laugh until we found out that he had been going around telling everyone that would listen that he was our commander. It took us a while to get that situation corrected. We finally went completely Union and that took care of him. He was one of those kind that refused to "dishonor" his ancestry by wearing blue. It is bad enough when spectators try to pull something that ridiculous, but when reenactors do it ...

We had a guy just like that a few years ago, I wasn't at the event, but I heard about it. Apparently, this guy went to some sutler, bought a complete Generals Uniform complete with sword, then came up to our unit (company sized) and informed us that he wanted to "command the troops", we explaied how we all start as pvts, but this guy was a real nutcase. He didn't listen at all. He just didn't get it.

From what I heard he later showed up to a court date (yes, he was the defendant) in his complete uniform! Apparently he had trouble with security in regards to the sword:D

[RWelker]

On another forum there is a discussion goin on about the spectators going to reenactments and dressing. Dressing in farb to PEC. Do the spectators who "dress up" help our hobby or hinder it? Should they be allowed to come dressed, after all they are spectators not "part of the show". Do they enhance the event?

I'd be interested in reading their discussion. Could you post a link?
Thanks!

[tompritchett]

Has any event sponsor turned back a spectator for this reason? Saying something like "I am sorry we already have 1 representive Lincoln, you cannot come in dressed as him, but if you wish to wear street clothes you are more than welcome."

To address this issue and other related "officer" issues, the Lehigh Valley Civil War Days event specifically wrote into the events regulations that 1) all specialty impressions had to be pre-approved by the event staff (yes we are fully intending to turn away any walk-ons), 2) all officers must have troops to support their ranks, and 3) no officer may hold a rank greater than Captain without the prior approval of the overall military commander of that side and the event staff. These are rules we are fully intending to enforce, even if it means that some Col., Gen., or Major for life takes his 10 - 20 men home with him. These issues have been discussed at great length at our event planning meetings and all have agreed that we will enforce these rules. So it can be done.

[ElijahsGrtGranddaughter]

I come from a Renassaince reenacting background where we encourage spectators to dress up. It not only pulls them closer to actual participation but the longer they do it the more accurate they want to be and the more they want to learn about the history. I know lots of people that started out as dressed up spectators and eventually became full members of the Faire. We should always encourage a love of history!

I have to agree here. I also come from a Renaissance (SCA (http://www.sca.org)) background where farby was heavly frowned upon, but there was always someone willing to help you along. Which made it that much more fun to participate when you knew your garb was period correct.

It made it easy for me to switch to CW and know that I was correct right out of the gate. I had some idea as to how to begin my research on period correctness, then I knew how to spot the period correct and then from there, who to talk to about dressing properly and appropriately.

I say let them dress, and if it's extremely farby, why not offer up some suggestions? Especially if they approach you and want to know about what you are wearing. A simply steer in the right direction might make their next event more interesting for them and give them that extra 'hump' to learn more. :D

~Kerri

[Tarheel57]

On another forum there is a discussion goin on about the spectators going to reenactments and dressing. Dressing in farb to PEC. Do the spectators who "dress up" help our hobby or hinder it? Should they be allowed to come dressed, after all they are spectators not "part of the show". Do they enhance the event?

I agree with what others have said. I think paying spectators can dress however they wish. If they have fun doing so, more power to them. However, I agree that if someone interferes with an event, appropriate steps should be taken to handle them.

[hussard7]

It happens all around the world. At the 1995 WaterLoo event, they had two extra Napoleons on the grounds, and one of them had the audacity to go and have a heart attack during the event.

Yours,
Wayne Gregory

[michael.shafto]

Hello!

This thread has reminded me of an incident that occured at a very small event in Northwest Wisconsin about 10 years ago.

I was very new to reenacting, and had gone to a small event with my mentor. I fell in with an infantry company (about 15 men) in a small battalion (of about 30 men) We were sitting around on Saturday and a n elderly man in a decent Brigadier General's uniform asked us if he could command us on the battlefield. This old guy seemed nice enough, so we told him sure. we gave him a set of field glasses, told him where to stand, and even gave him a quick lesson in some basic commands. He was smiling the whole time, and thoroughly enjoyed himself. After the battle on Saturday, he thanked us for allowing him to participate and left. Later that afternoon, the old man's daughter found our group and thanked us for giving her dad the honor to command one more time. It turned out that he had been an actual Brigadier General during World War 2. She told us that he was slipping into a losing fight with Altimers (sp?) disease. It has been several years and I do not remember his name, but that experience has changed my outlook on how I treat "costumed spectators"

What began as snickers and chuckles by our men turned into solemn pride that we had been able to give him the respect he had earned so many years before...

[michael.shafto]

Might have been Vietnam....

[GaWildcat]

All I can say to that is... Whooah! This We'll Defend!

[FloridaConfederate]

If there are folks in Florida who want to put together a horse costume (Three Stooges Style) and come to an event I would be interested in incorporating you into my cavalry impression.

http://www.costume-shop.com/images/products/27169.jpg

[bob 125th nysvi]

a different SCA in georgia than in NY because around here ANYTHING goes in the SCA.

Talk about farby, once had to tell a group of 5th century Brian Boru decendants that they were 500 years too early.

[Sarah Jane Meister]

There are definite advantages for guests of a unit to come "in costume" such as you elaborated, especially when members of the unit help them with loaner outfits and such. It is the non-unit affiliated dress-ups who try to portray reenactors that sometimes make me a little nervous.

Yes, I totally agree. I think all newbies, whether dressed-up or not, should be under the tutorage and guidance of someone experienced in the hobby.

Sarah

[Charles Weathers]

Around here SCA is ALL farb. I come from a professional Faire in Wisconsin where people portrayed actual historical figures (including Queen Elizabeth, herself!). You could ask them ANYTHING and not only were they able to answer your questions but in first person. Whether you were an actual person or not you were required to be authentic. But having spectators dress up made it even more fun. It showed they had interest even if they weren't totally acurate. Although, we did have one day when a group of Star Wars wanna be's showed up. That was weird! I did it for about 14 years. Best times I have EVER had in my life. I wanted to join Civil War reenacting for the same reasons. I know a lot of people from the Faire that if they had been turned away as spectators in their farby outfits they never would have eventually become proffesionals! :cool:

[Tarheel57]

a different SCA in georgia than in NY because around here ANYTHING goes in the SCA.

Talk about farby, once had to tell a group of 5th century Brian Boru decendants that they were 500 years too early.

Oh, man, same here in Floriduh! I was portraying a 14th century Scots, when I was approached by a couple of SCA'ers in modern Scottish Kilts, who demanded to know why I wasn't wearing a Kilt. I explained that I was a lowlander, so I would not have worn a kilt, which was not even worn by Highlanders at that time in it's present form. Blank stares. Then one of them roared "Where's yer sgian dubh"! I tried to point out that this was a fairly modern accoutrement that would have been a few hundred years too early for me, only to be met with more blank stares. I guess they were from the Shire of Blank Stares. Everyone seems to wear a weird amalgamation of Viking, modern Scottish, and Medieval garb. To paraphrase Captain Davis of the Ironclad board, if you take them home and worship them it will not be idolatry, because they have "the image of nothing in the heaven above, or the earth beneath, or the waters under the earth."
Yep folks, there is something in the water down here. Bring your own!

[sbl]

In Rev-War these folks were known as "Plaid-Vikings."

[Tarheel57]

One reason why spectators may be dressing up at some events is that they are registering as reenactors rather than as spectators. At events like Gettysburg and others, registering thus can often result in substantial savings. For example, buying a 3 day spectator advanced ticket for Gettysburg costs $57.00/adult while that same adult can register as a reenactor for $25.00. Second when a unit guest registers as a reenactor, that guest still has access to the camps even after the camps are closed to the public. Back before my wife actually started reenacting in my current unit, when she would come down to see one of our reenactments with my prior unit, we would always have her register as a reenactor just for the two above units. I am sure that my former and current units were not the only units to figure these advantages out just as I am sure that other non-unit-affiliated spectators have also discovered these advantages, especially at large events, such as Gettysburg, that have no event level enforcement of authenticity standards.

I was very surprised when I registered for my first event and I simply had to write down the unit I was participating with. I could have been anyone. In fact, later they began requiring all reeanctors to show a piece of uniform because a lot of non-reenactors were attempting to register. This requirement was later dropped after the reenacting units protested, but I could understand the initial reasons for it.
In the ren faires I attend, participating groups are asked to turn in an attendance list prior to the event. When people come to register and get ID badges,their names are checked off their group's list. (Still, there are people who try to do stupid things like run off a friend's ID on a color copier and alter it, etc.)
Are non-reenactors falsely registering as reenactors a large enough problem to warrant something similar for CW events?

[OVI]

A number of years ago at a small local event, a guy showed up saying he was Col Rutherford B. Hays. He didnt ask for command, he just wandered around like he was. During the "battle" we decided to test his leadership skills and during a enemy volley all our officers and senior NCOs went down at once. A lone surviving Corporal ran up to Col Hays and asked for his orders as the enemy advanced to take our position. "Colonel Hays" was stunned and just stood there and was captured with the rest of us. He never came back after that.

Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

[bob 125th nysvi]

the spectators dressing up. They are there to have some fun let them have their fun.

I don't even mind them walking around the camp putting on 'airs'. It actually gives us quite a bit to laugh about.

Having them 'fall in' and try to participate, now that is over the top.

But who knows if 20 of them dress up and get it wrong, maybe we'll attract 2 to come and join us and improve their impression.

And we are always complaining about numbers in this hobby going down hill so why would we look down our noses at them? Should we try to engage them, see how serious they are and if they are, recruit them?

[sigman]

I have no problem when a parent allows a youngster to dress up as a soldier even if it is costumish and come see the camps, etc.. But when an adult fancies himself a high ranking officer, that is another story. We were sitting around our campfire at a fairly large springtime event outside Philadelphia. A general comes up, sits down and starts talking at us. We had never seen this guy and he wasn't part of the event. He would of earned more respect if he showed as a private.

Also, I have seen a number of spectator types uniformed and in a crowd, just spewing out bad info. all the while resplendant in a field officer's uniform.

Lastly, we had a guy who wanted to join our unit, 12th NJ as a colonel. He was told all recruits enter as privates, he would have none of that. Jeez!

Andy Siganuk 12th NJVI, Mifflin Guard

[toptimlrd]

Having them 'fall in' and try to participate, now that is over the top.

But who knows if 20 of them dress up and get it wrong, maybe we'll attract 2 to come and join us and improve their impression.



My only problem here is having 20 (or any number for that matter) people wih no clue taking the field with blackpowder rifles and bayonets then getting someone hurt or worse. If someone wants to try the hobby, most units will help them out as long as they have drilled and shown competency in safety, then they can take the field. Not looking down my nose, but a little worried about them looking over their site at me. Anyone who wants to learn is always welcome

[TimKindred]

Comrades,

My first run-in with spectators in costume came awhile back during several LH prigrams I participated in at Gettysburg NPS. These folks were hired by the sutler Servants . The owner(s) kitted them out with clothing and equipment, and sent them up to hang around the crowds as living adverts for his business. They'd comment that "If you want to get clothing like these fellows wear, there's this really TOP NOTCH sutler downtown..", etc. Paid shills they were, and really torqued us off.

I have also seen a lady and a gentleman in period civilian clothing at some events walking through the crowd and handing out business cards for a sutlery. I'm not against that sort of thing, but the fellows working for old Servants really got my dander up. Oh well... :rolleyes:

[M.Metz]

My only problem here is having 20 (or any number for that matter) people wih no clue taking the field with blackpowder rifles and bayonets then getting someone hurt or worse.

At the local event our unit puts on, we had a some what legit unit from a neighboring city come down and recruit CHILDREN into their ranks. This was unknown by the event organizers until someone got hurt.

The unit was new and decided to up their numbers by gathering young people, 14 and 15 year olds, into their unit. At the last battle of the event, The Philippi Races, the confederates are pushed down main street each company falling to the rear of the other companies. Just so happens as we were falling back when this kid fired both barrels of a sawed off shotgun into the face of one guy. Myself along with our Captain also took the blast. We faired better than the other guy who had to go to the hospital and have his eyes flushed. Thankfully he had no permit damage.

Our event organizers now take more care and have added more restrictions for the reenactors. The next year, they ended up getting mad at our restrictions and packed up and left. However, they attend a few other events we do.

My biggest complaint is not about people who dress up for the event. Let them come and have fun too as long as they are not interfering with the real event. When they come and put people in danger or spread the wrong word, I have a problem. That particular unit, at every event I have seen them, have been dangerous and give other reenacting units a bad name.

Just my two cents.

[tompritchett]

We were sitting around our campfire at a fairly large springtime event outside Philadelphia. A general comes up, sits down and starts talking at us.

It makes me wonder whether or not he was a member of the local SCV chapter as often some of the members do own their own uniforms and I have rarely seen a SCV uniform for a private.

[bob 125th nysvi]

My only problem here is having 20 (or any number for that matter) people wih no clue taking the field with blackpowder rifles and bayonets then getting someone hurt or worse. If someone wants to try the hobby, most units will help them out as long as they have drilled and shown competency in safety, then they can take the field. Not looking down my nose, but a little worried about them looking over their site at me. Anyone who wants to learn is always welcome

I wasn't suggesting that they show up armed. As I mentioned that is over the top.

The conversation started out about spectators which is an entirely different class than kibitzers.

Kibitizers we have no use for.

But if someone comes to an event to WATCH (that is what a spectator is) and they show up dressed to fit in and 'participate' from afar then they have some interest.

To me that spells potential recruit.

people who showup uninvited and want to play? That is not a SPECTATOR.

ps: Clean out your PM box. I tried to shoot you a PM and it bounced back.

[jerryeberg]

On another forum there is a discussion goin on about the spectators going to reenactments and dressing. Dressing in farb to PEC. Do the spectators who "dress up" help our hobby or hinder it? Should they be allowed to come dressed, after all they are spectators not "part of the show". Do they enhance the event?


NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Spectators dressing up is going to change our sacred and mildly accurate Civil War reenacting into a Renaissance Festival!!!!
Soon ladies will walk around with dragons hanging out of their cleavage and devil horns attached and guys will start Civil War LARPing with Celtic swords for some reason. Not to mention the non-existent pirates will become the third side of the Civil War.

(Yes, there is a renaissance festival club at GVSU. We're the only 2 history related clubs, but mine is the only history club... I feel bad that I let some "rennies" into my club, I'm trying my hardest to explain to them that when we portray history, we actually try to portray history!!!)

But, at reenactments, I don't mind seeing the little children running around with their little plastic guns playing war. I think that's kind of cool. If you watch them, their battles are cooler than ours!

[indguard]

It's very easy to be flip about this whole "others" dressing up in pseudo-period garb. It's all fun and games to assume they are all idiots, or mental cases. It's also very easy to allow your own sense of your territory being violated make YOU into the jerk in this situation.

But, here is the thing... every case is VERY different and they all must be treated differently. A good commander who has a clue about how to deal with people would know that not every person who arrives at an event unbidden and unconnected is necessarily a hazard to the event and a mockery of history.

The only way to handle such a person is to talk with them and try to get a sense of what THEY think they are doing. What they want to do. What they''d accept otherwise.

If they are trouble, get rid of them, certainly.

But if they are harmless and finding some small way to include them won't hurt what you are doing, why not give them a little something? IF their situation deserves such treatment, of course.

Again, every case is different. If the person in question is a true nut case that thinks they should be allowed to take center stage merely because they have some cool thigh-high boots and a plume in their hat, this person needs to be slapped down with impunity (figuratively, of course).

But, on the other hand, there are those who are well meaning and, with some guidance, will actually add to an event. I remember years ago a fellow who used to show as Robert E. Lee was uninformed about reenacting, but was VERY informed about Lee. When he showed many commanders and event people excluded him and treated him badly. But, I took an interest in him and after I aided him to fit in a little better, he actually did well with the spectators. By the way he NEVER expected to lead anyone on the field at the event. He actually helped add to the event in his own way.

I have also had some situations of older folks coming in a semblance of civil warrie type gear wanting a little something of their own past. Turned out some of them were old time military guys themselves and just wanted to feel a little of the old military camaraderie back. Giving them the benefit of the doubt gave us all a warm feeling and gave some old fellers a thrill in their waning days. After their own service to our country, why is it such a chose to give the old fellow a thrill? Why is it such a bad thing to take a few minutes out of your life for such a person?

No harm no foul there.

So, what I am saying here is that I strongly urge everyone in this hobby not to act like crass, loudmouthed jerks to every person who shows up somewhat garbed in period getup just because they don't "belong" there. Talk to the guy. Assess his state of mind and reasoning. Include him if he will cause no harm. Exclude him if he is undeserving.

And let me also say one last thing. There are THOUSANDS of reenactors that DO "belong" in units all across the country that I'd get rid of in a perfect world, so just because you actually claim to be a "real" reenactor does not mean YOU automatically deserve to take the field, either!!

Warner Todd Huston

[sbl]

"..But, at reenactments, I don't mind seeing the little children running around with their little plastic guns playing war. I think that's kind of cool. If you watch them, their battles are cooler than ours!..."

At one of the Gettysburgs back in the 90s, we sat on a hill and watched around 20-30 kids, boys and girls, playing war with the wooden muskets and all. The boys that seemed enjoy "dying" were the Confederate kids. One of our men yelled over....."Son, go and show yer daddy how to do that!"

[ejazzyjeff]

The other thing you would have to remember is if you are letting individuals join in the ranks or participate in anything, who will be held accountable if they get hurt? Have they paid for insurance, like most of us do in order to participate at any event.

I have no problems with spectators dressing up, but just don't get in the way. If you want to participate, join a reenacting unit.

[Motown]

NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Spectators dressing up is going to change our sacred and mildly accurate Civil War reenacting into a Renaissance Festival!!!!
Soon ladies will walk around with dragons hanging out of their cleavage and devil horns attached and guys will start Civil War LARPing with Celtic swords for some reason. Not to mention the non-existent pirates will become the third side of the Civil War.

(Yes, there is a renaissance festival club at GVSU. We're the only 2 history related clubs, but mine is the only history club... I feel bad that I let some "rennies" into my club, I'm trying my hardest to explain to them that when we portray history, we actually try to portray history!!!)

But, at reenactments, I don't mind seeing the little children running around with their little plastic guns playing war. I think that's kind of cool. If you watch them, their battles are cooler than ours!

You haven't been to the Cascades event, have you there bud?

[M.Metz]

Well my point I was trying to make was that they started out as spectators who ended up being grafted into the ranks of that unit.

[eugene]

I've seen a lot of people take their kids stressed up. which I don't care about since to me kids can do whatever they like, they are kids after all.

But adults dressing up in carnival/farby gear, though rare, happens and unless it's discreet and you get one or two in the crowd (which is tolerable), it soon becomes a problem when the other spectators turn to them for information and questions...

[tompritchett]

I've seen a lot of people take their kids stressed up. which I don't care about since to me kids can do whatever they like, they are kids after all.

Is the "stressed up" a typo or are you trying to make a new point in this thread?

[wilber6150]

Just a thought, but might some of these people have a genuine interest in the era and just want to be a part of it..If someone doesn't have the internet and know where to look, it is darn hard to find info on joining local units and getting involved..So they get dressed up in what they think is correct and attend the event to be a part of what they love. Maybe the right thing to do would be to talk these people and try to recruit some of them rather then banning them or kicking them out of events..On the other hand there might no be any hope for the 5 star generals running around dressed up like Yosemity Sam :p

[toptimlrd]

ps: Clean out your PM box. I tried to shoot you a PM and it bounced back.

Unfortunately my PM box can fill up very quickly, especially after I post in the sutler section. I do have my e-mail below which is usually a better method. You should be able to send it now though.

[bizzilizzit]

I have a problem with spectators over the age of 12 dressing up. Not because they may wear something inappropriate but because they may be covering up their true intention - to steal.
At the 135th Antietam, I had the pleasure to be the company cook for the men who fell in with my unit. After feeding them an early light breakfast, I watched them march off to the dawn battle then returned to camp. I was under the cook fly preparing a hearty breakfast for my boys when they returned. As a rule, I was only in camp when the boys were out or to prepare meals. Good thing I was there. Two fellas, dressed in reenacting provost garb were poking their heads into tents - tied and open. There were surprised by my presence and when questioned, they gave a story about looking for stolen muskets. They were ushered out of camp and I later found out that these pretend reenactors had been stealing from tents all weekend long.
Never trust a spectator in period clothing. If they have a spectator ticket, then shorts and t-shirts should be the only uniform they should be allowed in with. Every year I go to Universal Halloween Horror Nights - they do not allow anyone in wearing costumes or masks because they want to be sure the staff and customers know who is who. I think it's a good idea to know who the "experienced" people are at events and who the "clueless" people are - if we are all dressed alike, aren't we giving the key to the inmates to take over the asylum?

[sigman]

There is plenty to be stolen in camps by thieves. Over the years muskets have been stolen, they are valuable and one has to be vigilent. I have heard many tragic stories of stolen muskets over the years.

We did the battle of Franklin years back. Our color bearer went down. A member of the color guard laid his muket down and left it in the heat of battle to retrieve the colors. When he went back to retrieve it, the musket was gone. Even after a great deal of searching and inquiring it was never recovered.

As regards to provosts doing searches, they should present themselves to the battalion commander first. And if the individuals are unknown, they'd better have a written order from headquarters. Otherwise, they would not be allowed in our camp.

We post guards at times too, Standing orders are to watch out for unidentifiable persons coming around camp carrying loot. They could be reenactors or spectators.

Andy Siganuk, MIfflin Guard

[dionys_5]

Anyone who is not affiliated with a unit or organization, and is not preapproved for a living history at this event, will have their registration rejected. The Command of both Armies has requested this, and rejections have taken place. Spectator tickets are the other way to get in to the event!

[RJSamp]

I have a problem with spectators over the age of 12 dressing up. Not because they may wear something inappropriate but because they may be covering up their true intention - to steal.
At the 135th Antietam, I had the pleasure to be the company cook for the men who fell in with my unit. After feeding them an early light breakfast, I watched them march off to the dawn battle then returned to camp. I was under the cook fly preparing a hearty breakfast for my boys when they returned. As a rule, I was only in camp when the boys were out or to prepare meals. Good thing I was there. Two fellas, dressed in reenacting provost garb were poking their heads into tents - tied and open. There were surprised by my presence and when questioned, they gave a story about looking for stolen muskets. They were ushered out of camp and I later found out that these pretend reenactors had been stealing from tents all weekend long.
Never trust a spectator in period clothing. If they have a spectator ticket, then shorts and t-shirts should be the only uniform they should be allowed in with. Every year I go to Universal Halloween Horror Nights - they do not allow anyone in wearing costumes or masks because they want to be sure the staff and customers know who is who. I think it's a good idea to know who the "experienced" people are at events and who the "clueless" people are - if we are all dressed alike, aren't we giving the key to the inmates to take over the asylum?

OUCH! Now that is a horror story! I know they talked about stolen weapons at A135 up at Federal HQ.....not fun.

[JohnnyReb102]

I have no problem with dress up spectators as long as they stay off the field. Since we all love history, I know that people that come to the events want to share in it and that is fine. However, if they do find the need to assert themselves a little further then just being dressed up watching, there may be problems with that.

As someone mentioned before, liability would be pretty messed up if something were to happen.

[CameronsHighlander]

are we a rennissance festival?

People dress up for rennissance faire's and personally I make fun of them I will make fun of any pewit who walks in pays admition then buys a sac coat, Kepi, canteen, and etc just to watch and pretend they know something about reenacting and the civil war and tells someone something completely wrong. Under 12 you could expect it but these kids should be told never point a gun at anyone.

[bob 125th nysvi]

are we a rennissance festival?

People dress up for rennissance faire's and personally I make fun of them I will make fun of any pewit who walks in pays admition then buys a sac coat, Kepi, canteen, and etc just to watch and pretend they know something about reenacting and the civil war and tells someone something completely wrong. Under 12 you could expect it but these kids should be told never point a gun at anyone.

are a publish history professor from the local college who is widely recognized as an authority in the field?

Or how about someone with 20 years reenacting expereince who has "retired" from the CW army and wants to have a good time with the grandkids?

Or how about someone who would really like to join a unit and learn how to do it right?

Isn't the pewit the one who judges a book by the cover? What is it the Sargent says (approximately) in Gettysburg? 'You can not judge a race. Only a pewit judges men by race. Men you take one at a time.'

Aren't we better to judge them one at a time AFTER we meet them then before as a group?

[Chuck A Luck]

...Isn't the pewit the one who judges a book by the cover? <snip> ...Only a pewit judges men by race.
Well, this got my curiosity roused. A "pewit" is a term I've ne'er heard before, so I looked it up (the easy way -- www.dictionary.com) and all I get are several different terms for a type of bird or having to do with such. What am I missing?

[wilber6150]

maybe a cross between a pea brain and a nit wit?

[Rick Keating]

I have to echo what Todd Huston posted. Each situation needs to be looked at and not just dismissed out of hand.

In 1996 our group went to an event in Hartsville, TN, the first reenactment of the battle that occurred there. We were approached by a local fellow who did a Union impression and who was an experienced reenactor. He told us about his friend who was a Civil War buff and knew the history of the Hartsville battle, and more than anything, wanted to participate.

The man's name was Calvin Morgan and we took the time to inspect his uniform and equipment and ran him through the manual of arms. We were going to march downtown (about 4 blocks) and fell in to leave. Calvin made about half a block and was having trouble breathing so his friend, James Hicks, fell out with Calvin and drove Calvin to the town square. Calvin made it through the skirmish around the courthouse. He was so proud I thought he was going to bust.

He came back the next day for the battle but in the meantime James filled us in on Calvin's condition. He was terminally ill with some kind of lung disease. Knowing that we just wanted to give Calvin the experience of his lifetime.

Since Calvin couldn't march we stationed him on the flank of the artillery where he could shoot and not be in anyone's way. I was commanding the 104th Illinosi that day and was not far from where Calvin was standing and firing. During the battle I went over to see how he was doing. He looked at me and said, "Captain, this is a good day to die." I had to turn away so he wouldn't see the tears welling up in my eyes.

We were able to give Calvin Morgan a moment he had dreamed about. When the battle was over he couldn't thank us enough for the experience he had. He wasn't the only one who enjoyed it.

A short tmie later James Hicks called to let me know that Calvin had passed away. James thanked us again for making Calvin's dream come true. We were all impressed with Calvin's desire and his courage.

At our next annual meeting we instituted the Calvin R. Morgan Soldier of the Year award. And each year we recount the story to the newbies about the desire and courage of this man. He certainly made our trip to Hartsville a memorable one.

Rick Keating
104th Illinois

[OVI]

Great story Rick.


Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

[JohnnyReb102]

Agreed. Good story.

This just goes back to what someone said earlier about everyone having their own case. Who would have known that all Calvin wanted in his final moments here was to share in the hobby that we all love and take for granted. This made me think, I love getting out there and having fun; but what if I could do it only one more time? That was probably the best day of Calvin's life.

I also enjoyed the story about the WWII/Vietnam veteran. There are good fellows out there that mean well. However, I am not to sure about those that approach and demand troops.

[Regimental_Officer]

A few years ago at Gettysburg we were recreating a part of a battle that General Custer was not a part of, However this man dressed as Custer ran onto the field and had pistols blazing and was yelling commands a few new reenactors followed him not knowing he had no command on the field. My commanding officer trotted up to him and in a loud but stern voice asked what in blazes are you doing on the battlefield and told him to get off. The man portraying Custer froze like a deer in headlights and ran to the hills. Who was he? No one knew but it goes to show what people will do when they dress up. The problem stems from the easy access to uniforms and equipment that the sutlers sell. A man can become a captain or colonel for about 375.00 and get onto the field without a problem. Having spectators dress up is not a problem but the problem starts when they try to get involved in situations they have no business getting into. There is one more pet peave that i have that is sort of the same thing. Those who do first person impressions. Not only do i think they hinder things at times but there is so many of them. While marching in the rememberance day parade in Gettysburg there was 10 Grants, 5 Shermans ,6 Custers ,20 Lincolns, 3 Sheridans and a partridge in a pair tree. It was crazy and some think they can bark out orders and command regiments. One time i obliged a Grant to command my troops and he had no clue what to do or say and i took over again and told him to hit the bottle. I think sutlers should ask if people are reenactors and sell them the right clothing and if they are spectators sell them another quality that is known to be farby then we would all know who the real macoy is.

[Strawfoot]

I'm personally surprised the individual troops would put up with something like this without jeering any such knucklehead off the field. I remember back at Olustee in 2002, we did an adjunct march with the SouthEast Feds/SCAR battalion and the Critters.

Somehow, those of us in Jimbo Butler's company got lassood into the shoot-em-up. Well, we're fixing to "go in," and this jackass wearing modern glasses, a faded purple sack coat, a canteen with a macrame cover, and sporting a floppy hat complete with still kicking animal parts, waddles on up to fly paper his way onto the edge of our company.

So Jimbo gets the order to clear out these woods and he sends us racing in by the right flank. Problem is, fluff dude is in the shape of an 80 year old, and proceeds to hold up the entire company. We get about ten steps into the maneuver, all the while looking like a detachment of keystone cops, before we cut loose with a series of vicious and rather biting remarks to the tune of "get your fat arse out of our way...!" I can't remember the last time I was so pissed, yet laughing my a$$ off at the same time.

I guess we got just about what we deserved though...

[FloridaConfederate]

When "Leading by Example" and "Progression without Attitude" flies out of the window.

[ClimbHigh]

The only problom that I have with people that dress up as farbs is the fact. That fact that they give a bad inpereshion to the true reenactors that are tring to teach people the real truth about the civil war. I fill that if that is something that you want to do then you sould not speek to people about the civil war like you know everything about it. When in fact they dont have a clue what they are talking about it. I fill the same way about some of the reenactors. They give people the faulse infermashion about something and some people dont know the differince and beleave what they say. Then when they ask you the same questin nd you give them the truth some one looks like an ideut. Reenactors need to read up on there history befor they open there mouth about something they dont know..

[reb64]

Here we go again with this mean spirited reenactor facism. I suppose anyone who wants to celebrate a event and buys authenic looking or farby goods is to be denied their civil war experience? i guess we ought to cancel all halloween events or costume balls or any event, maybe even disney world since these people may get it wrong? what happened to having some fun and enjoying the events? if they are on the sidelines then they know where they are in life and just want to be a part of celebrating history in a small way. what are you afraid of? someone may come away thinking that union coats are fuzzy navy colored purple instead of the correct blue ?that will really have a effect on gas prices. that stuff is more for us anyway than any real meaning in the world. i appreciate it but cant find 1 in fifty here inflorida who cares really. lighten up.

[Rob Weaver]

The problem stems from the easy access to uniforms and equipment that the sutlers sell. A man can become a captain or colonel for about 375.00 and get onto the field without a problem. ... I think sutlers should ask if people are reenactors and sell them the right clothing and if they are spectators sell them another quality that is known to be farby then we would all know who the real macoy is.

I've always suspected that the difference between and officer and a civilian is about $375. :D

With all due respect, I think this is an elitist solution that nobody would really want. Reenacting is a hobby, not a profession or a calling. (There are laws against impersonating real soldiers, law enforcement and clergy, for good reason. I don't think there are any against impersonating real reenactors.) Would you want Cabela's to refuse to sell a fly rod to someone who's just going to take it out to the local pond and make a fool out of himself casting it into a tree? We all register for these things, and they give us a pass, coin, etc. Show your passes and know your chain of command. Where were the NCOs in the ranks saying "Meaning no disrespect but stand fast. Right shoulder shift... arms."

[NoahBriggs]

The fact that there are spectators dressing up is a testament towards their enthusiasm. I feel it no different than the kid who sees the policeman do his job, then asks for toy police equipment so he can be equipped like his idol.
We tend to peer down our noses towards visitors. Sad to say it's reflected in our choice of terminology - "'taters", as though they were some unappetizing side dish, "tourons", which sounds like some bizarre astrology offshoot, or whatever. I chose to refer to them as "visitors", since not everybody who is there is necessarily a tourist, but are onsite, visiting us to ask questions.

Instead of rolling your eyes, you might smother them with kindness - compliment them on their attempt at material culture. Ask where they got it. LISTEN to their answers - something women do a **** of a lot better than any of us military fellows. Swallow pride and arrogance. So what if their material culture sucks? I'll take great attitude and crappy material culture over great material culture and crappy attitude. If you converse with them early, then you can head off problems of sudden attempts to take command or deliver erroneous information. You have no idea why the visitor is dressed up. Best find out early on. They may well be a cancer patient doing a last hurrah, or they copuld be delusional. Play along, be nice, size them up to make sure they won't be a harm to themselves or you.

Somewhere in the conversation both of you should strike a similar chord. In case you missed it the first time (remember, that listening thing I was typing about? No? Pity.) - you're both interested in the same topic. The clothing is called a "conversational gambit", ie, an opportunity to talk about something and learn from it. "Stupid questions" often lead down interesting paths. I was once asked by a kid if there were trains during the War. Answer eventually led into long, productive discussion on trains, transport and the impact of logistics.

Every now and then I terrify my friends into immobility and traumatic shock by dressing up in normal clothes and hitting living histories and reenactments. I ask standard visitor questions, and throw in some more esoteric ones to keep them on their toes. Why? To refresh myself and see what it's like on the other side of the campfire. Once I am back in period dress I feel better knowing I can probably handle weird or different visitors and the ones who dress up.

What? I STILL haven't been banned from the fora for telling the truth as I see it? What is WRONG with you people?

[Frenchie]

What? I STILL haven't been banned from the fora for telling the truth as I see it? What is WRONG with you people?

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/Darkfold_2006/Emoticons/yeahthat.gif

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/Darkfold_2006/rotf.gif

"If you want to make people angry, lie; if you want to make them livid with rage, tell the truth."

Preach on, Brother Noah! http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/Darkfold_2006/bow.gif

[flattop32355]

Just as within the reenactor population, there are stupid and/or malignant people who come to events in "period" clothing, out to get away with anything they can. In both cases, they are vastly a minority, and can usually be dealt with fairly simply.

As for all the other spectators who dress up either for the fun of it or to feel more in touch with the happenings at the event, more power to 'em. Please stay off the field when the boom-boom sticks are in play, enjoy the day and the experience, and we'll see you again, hopefully soon.

For them, and every other spectator, when I'm not on the field for a scenario, or otherwise occupied, I am there for you at your convenience to interact with you and yours as much as you care to do so, and to hopefully enhance your event experience. Even if you didn't have to pay to get in, you at least took the time from your schedule to let me talk with you. It's a part of what makes my time reenacting so rewarding.

Other's mileage may vary.

[Parault]

It makes me wonder whether or not he was a member of the local SCV chapter as often some of the members do own their own uniforms and I have rarely seen a SCV uniform for a private.

Tom

I do not think that any such animal exists. As a member of the SCV, I have attended several events ranging from grave dedications to banquets. I have seen many styles and variations of the uniforms, including the three branches of service. I have never seen anything less than a Captain. I am not talking about the reenactors that show up that are SCV members, I am talking about the SCV members that do not participate in reenactments, and do only SCV programs. I've seen more "chicken guts" at SCV events than at chicken houses.