"Experts"

[Major Duane]

Something we are having a hard time with in public schools these days is getting our students to understand what "reliable and authoritative" sources are...the internet IS the devil...trust me.

It seems that T.V. has begun stooping to the lowest level of expectation as well when it comes to their audience. Any sort of talking head will do when it comes to history...

For example...

I was watching the Military Channel the other night and they were showing a special on Alexander the Great and their authorative source was Dale Dye. Dale Dye? You're kidding right? I like Dale Dye and he's made some great contributions to historical authenticity in movies, but he is a Vietnam combat veteran cum technical advisor to movies. You're telling me there is no one out there more informed about the Ancient World than Dale Dye?

Or, how about the History Channel using Professor Robert McGrath for a special on Medieval Warfare? If you're familiar with Professor McGrath, he's an expert on the Old West and teaches at UCLA. He got his start on T.V. on the "Old West" series on HC about ten years ago. I guess they needed someone with Ph.D after his name.

Or, how about Aryeh Nussbaum. He's got a Ph.D...he's a professor (darn young one) at RMC Sandhurst in Britain (but he's an American). He's a specialist in Mechanized Warfare...but the Military Channel trots him out all the time...on everything from World War One to the Civil War.

I guess it's called marketing or having a good agent. My point being that books are ALWAYS a better option than T.V. and be circumspect of what you are watching. I hate watching some special on World War One and they trot out footage of the U.S. Army c.1935 on manuevers and present it as "combat footage" for no other reason than the type of helmets they are wearing. They stuck a picture like that in our new U.S. History textbooks for high school and I just about vomited...shows how well they are edited.

Be careful too with some of these Civil War "experts" that are featured. You might have as much qualification to be on T.V. as they do. :D

We're ignorant, fat, and happy...I think that's how Rome started downward...:(
John Adams
Huckleberry Mess

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

I have been thinking almost the same thing as of late. I often scratch my head on several cable channels choices for authorities. Like you mentioned, several are authorities on certain areas, but are out of their league on other topics. A friend of mine in the television production business let me in on a process that the History Channel, Discovery, and A&E use, and that is they collect alot of stock "interview" footage on different topics from each expert, getting more "bang for their buck", so that they can use them on multiple shows.. M TV and VH1 are experts on this as well, because if you notice their use of stand-up comics and music artists talking about things they obviously have no idea of, but they will put together alot of interview time and use them for multiple shows.

[Frenchie]

Something we are having a hard time with in public schools these days is getting our students to understand what "reliable and authoritative" sources are...the Internet IS the devil...trust me.

Not just our students. I know otherwise intelligent adults who swear and declare something is true because they read it in an e-mail or on a Web site.

It seems that T.V. has begun stooping to the lowest level of expectation as well when it comes to their audience. Any sort of talking head will do when it comes to history...

Has begun? TV news started going downhill when some pointy-headed Harvard MBAs decided that the news needed to be more than a public service - it needed to generate revenue by selling ad time. This was soon after Huntley and Brinkley. That's when the news started becoming "infotainment" and we started hearing about how our underwear may be killing us... film at 11:00.

And Hollywood doesn't care a rip for history, as we're only too aware.

[Slickrick214]

Or, how about Aryeh Nussbaum. He's got a Ph.D...he's a professor (darn young one) at RMC Sandhurst in Britain (but he's an American). He's a specialist in Mechanized Warfare...but the Military Channel trots him out all the time...on everything from World War One to the Civil War.


I can't stand that guy. When he's on I have to turn the channel. He is so annoying. I just want to get a rope and hang myself (or him) when he talks.

[Craig L Barry]

Remember "Gladiator" which I think won an Academy Award? The main character was called The Spaniard. After the movie ended I asked my son what he thought of it and he said, "Shouldn't Russel Crowe's character have been called "The Iberian?" Yes, Iberia was not formed under that name (Spain) for another 1,300 years or so but then nobody would have known why he was called that or what it meant. Our world history is taught even less well these days than US history.

Likewise, I was watching the two hour "300 Spartans" History Channel special or whatever it was called which is re-run now after being slapped together originally a year or so ago to pimp for the movie version of the graphic novel "300" about Thermoplyae, which I liked. They summarized the special by saying how the outcome of the battle unified Greece and thus made safe the concept of democracy which would have otherwise never survived to the modern age... Hmmmm...but if Thermoplyae unified Greece, it didn't last long. Weren't those newly unified "all for one and one for all" city states Athens and Sparta back at it beginning 20 yrs later in the Peloponnesian Wars I and II? And as I recall the Persians assisted Sparta in the Second against Athens, ironically enough. Maybe twenty years was longer back then.

So I guess maybe TV and the movies are a silly place to get your facts or your history, if you want to "get it right"?

[tpallas]

Never mind the fact that he killed Commodus in gladiatorial combat to return Rome to "freedom" (read: Senatorial aristocratic oligarchy). All too often history is perverted to fit modern morals, concepts, and even political debates. At least HBO's "Rome" series is moderately good, but I suppose any historical drama needs to be, well, dramatic. Showtime's "The Tudors" feels more like Beverely Hills 90210 than anything else.

[sbl]

Dale Dye? Here's why....

from IMBD..

Alexander (2004) (senior military advisor) (as Capt. Dale A. Dye)
... aka Alexander (Germany)
... aka Alexander Revisited: The Final Cut (USA: recut version)
... aka Alexander: Director's Cut (USA: censored version)
... aka Alexandre (France)


Respectfully, he was was also military advisor for Starship Troopers and Mars Attacks (I enjoyed both of them.)

[Craig L Barry]

This is why I don't watch much TV or take in that many movies. First, of course, I think every possible movie has been made and re-made a couple times, and second, as far as TV, I hate all the "...Hey, wait a second there" moments in the history based documentaries. If "Gladiator" was a little loose with the facts, let's not get started on "Troy", then.

My theory is TV and movies are intended for those who can't (or worse, can but don't) read.

[RWelker]

My theory is TV and movies are intended for those who can't (or worse, can but don't) read.

There's something to that, certainly. My favorite experts are the people who were there. Even then, as I've been noticing in a memoir or two lately, people forget and get their memories mixed up. It's a headache and a half trying to sort that out.

[sbl]

There's something to that, certainly. My favorite experts are the people who were there. Even then, as I've been noticing in a memoir or two lately, people forget and get their memories mixed up. It's a headache and a half trying to sort that out.

I've heard it said that it's half forgeting the bad things and half remembering how it should have been.

Events in my Mom's life story changed several times.

[Craig L Barry]

See Ebbinghaus "the exponential nature of forgetting". Memories are halved to the point of nearly nothing after about six days. Some of these "first party accounts" were written twenty years after the war. The exact date that you might have traded in your smoothbore for an Enfield might have eluded you by then...this is why the original source documents are so critical in determining such things as who had what and when, vs first party accounts.

[Pete K]

Gentlemen, I have many friends whose children are in private and parochial schools who ask me to tutor their children in history because the private school have weak history teachers as well. I feel I do a professional duty in my teaching and the recurring theme of "public schools teach PC/ watered down/ are deficient in the teaching of history" is getting a bit thin. Sorry to sound so sour, but I know many of we around this virtual campfire are educators and it has to irk others as well. There are poor lawyers, auto mechanics, doctors, contractors, and stock brokers out there too, would you like to be lumped with the deficient by an annonomus poster when you do a fine job at your profession?
I have the best job in the world, I teach US History in a town called FREEDOM!

[reddcorp]

"My theory is TV and movies are intended for those who can't (or worse, can but don't) [U]read."

The bottom line is that, generally speaking, movies and television are intended to entertain an audience and to generate revenue. If facts gets in the way of entertainment or movie attendance, then facts take second place.

A.Redd

[sbl]

"My theory is TV and movies are intended for those who can't (or worse, can but don't) [U]read."

The bottom line is that, generally speaking, movies and television are intended to entertain an audience and to generate revenue. If facts gets in the way of entertainment or movie attendance, then facts take second place.

A.Redd


I'm a fan of the AMUL Butter company site since my Indian co-workers told me about it. I was surprised that another culture had this problem....

http://www.amul.com/images/topical.jpg


"Controversy on the historical facts portrayed in the Bollywood movie "Jodhaa Akbar", the storyline is marriage of political alliance of two cultures and traditions which later evolved into love - February '08. "

[hanktrent]

The bottom line is that, generally speaking, movies and television are intended to entertain an audience and to generate revenue. If facts gets in the way of entertainment or movie attendance, then facts take second place.

It's not like any of this is new. I'd say the above summary fits period newspapers, magazines and museums perfectly.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Fenian]

Gents,anyone passing themselves off as an "expert" needs to examine the term a bit.after all an"ex" is a "has been" and a "spurt(I know sic) is a drip under pressure! Aren't we all perpetual students of the topic? In this case the Civil War bur perhaps life in general? Bud

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

I thought "experts" were "historical" or "technical" 'advisors.'

Seriously, "expert" is a term. IMHO, there are good ones, poor ones, and those in between based upon:

1. proven achievement, experience, and record from either lay/amateurs or professionals
2. awards and distinctions
3. formal pieces of paper that culture, society, and custom grants the use of letters before and/or after one's name
4. a medium from which to be heard
5. some combination of 1-4.
6. the absence of 1-5

;) :)

CHS

[bob 125th nysvi]

but it has always been this way, irrelevant of the media.

The text books you studied in school (especially pre-1990) were written pretty much with the 'American' viewpoint and selected by the teaching (or State Ed) staff because it agreed with their world view.

Maps and globes used to oversize Europe?North America and undersize Africa and South American (and all of us in school in the 60s-70s were looking at those maps).

Civil War history taught in northern schools had a northern slant.

For a long time it wasn't taught in southern schools at all.

Any of us who have really studied history knows there are at least two sides to each event (sometimes many more) so the only way to get a balanced version is to read/see as many different versions of the event as possible and sort it out for yours.elfA BIGGER crime in my view is that kids are taugth today how to evaluate the source of the information. Or how to research a variety of sources or how to unemotionally look at events.

We have always been subjected to suspect experts, the trick we had to learn was how to distinguish between what was/might be true and what was pure manure.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/shinola_edited-1.jpg

CHS

[Major Duane]

Peter,

It wasn't my intent for this to take a "public school bashing" slant...I'm a public school teacher and it DOES get old to hear the same old rant. There are bad teachers and bad schools like there are bad insurance salesmen, bad lawyers, bad doctors, etc...but since everyone has children who attend school, everyone feels entitled to voice an opinion (informed or not).

Hang in there and keep fighting the good fight.

John Adams
Huckleberry Mess

[Major Duane]

All this proves is that he worked on Alexander movies...doesn't make him an "expert" on Ancient Macedonia. ;) I think he does a good job of dealing with the qualities of combat that transcend time...getting extras to work together as a unit, reacting to combat realistically, etc.

I thought he made "Last of the Mohicans" a better movie because of his discipline gave to the British extras -- but, IMHO that doesn't make him an "expert" on the French and Indian War. Make sense?

John Adams
Huckleberry Mess

[Parault]

In a galaxy far far away, a long long time ago, while sitting in a desk at rookie school, I had an instructor tell us if you are on a scene, and a person comes up to you and says, "I am an expert" have that person arrested. That is along the same lines as one of those " experts" in the differant time periods. I fail to see how one could be such an expert in early Greek history, and in World War II, with all the years in between, at the same time.

[Charles Weathers]

Ever since jr high I knew school history was slanted. It was then and there I decided to do my own tutoring. I have listened to more teachers over the years teach history incorrectly than I can count with my shoes off. It amazes me the info that I have had to regurgitate for a test that I KNEW was wrong.

Considering all of the school problems (gangs, shootings, drugs, racial, poor teachers, etc...) that I am sure people are experiencing all over the country, home schooling is looking better and better!

[plankholder]

This is why I don't watch much TV or take in that many movies. First, of course, I think every possible movie has been made and re-made a couple times, and second, as far as TV, I hate all the "...Hey, wait a second there" moments in the history based documentaries. If "Gladiator" was a little loose with the facts, let's not get started on "Troy", then.

My theory is TV and movies are intended for those who can't (or worse, can but don't) read.

I was more than a little dissappointed that they didnt even attempt to recreate the "Lions Gate", not to mention the fact Brad Pitt wore boots(its a footware fetish, stop laughing). However "Hollyweird" may butcher history, at least there is a trend of history based entertainment, that has been pretty lacking since the 60's. Like it or not, kids(as well as adults) these days are so bombarded by visual stimulation, that it takes some shock and awe to grab the attention and prime the brain for absorbtion. Troy may have been a bit of a farce, but when my son's kindergarten teacher complained at his parent/teachers confrence(always an adventure) that Caleb always wants to play "Achillis", and refuses play "house" or "grocery store" with the other kids-I have to admit I was a bit proud-****, I am 33 and dont want to play "house" or "grocery store"! There has been some good recent attempts at historical entertainment, one that comes to mind is a PBS cartoon called "Liberty's Kids" about the Rev war. It is geared towards children, but I learned several things in each episode-and it paid wonderfully close attention to detail and historical accuracy, especially for a childrens cartoon. Anyone who hasnt seen this show, should seek it out-you wont be dissapointed! Every classroom should have access to the series, it is an incredible educational tool. Last but certainly not least, THANK YOU TEACHERS! you guys are truly domestic heroes, its all too easy to criticize teachers because they are forced to teach within strict parameters, that are set by politically correct snoots(which are rarely,if ever, behind the podium) that are more worried about liability and lawsuits than truth. Everyone talks or dreams of changing the world, teachers do it everyday! Thanks again.-ELI GEERY

[sbl]

Ever since jr high I knew school history was slanted. It was then and there I decided to do my own tutoring. I have listened to more teachers over the years teach history incorrectly than I can count with my shoes off. It amazes me the info that I have had to regurgitate for a test that I KNEW was wrong.



Natasha, are you talking about Civil War History?




Considering all of the school problems (gangs, shootings, drugs, racial, poor teachers, etc...) that I am sure people are experiencing all over the country, home schooling is looking better and better!


Great, then on "snow days" your kids can learn that the 'gummint" controls the weather.

[Charles Weathers]

Civil War, Rev War, cultural, general, you name it. My dad is a history buff (hmm, wonder where I got it?!) so museums, historical places, parks, etc. were always on the top of the list for vacations. From middle thru college I read an average of 10 books a year (not including assigned for school) mainly on history. I could cry about all of the wrong info driven into kids skulls when I was in school! At one point I actually argued with a teacher about what the Trail of Tears REALLY was! Even when I taught intro college courses if I didn't know the answer to a question I said so and then I looked it up to make sure it was answered correctly.

P.S. Earthquakes and the weather are not related in ANY WAY!!!! Common misconception I have to deal with on a regular basis.

[sbl]

Well I did have the issue of whether the Mexican president Benito Juarez was a hero or villian with a Jesuit Priest in college. One college professor taught that he was hero for taking land and rights from the Church and Father C. taught that he was a bandit for taking land and rights from the Church.

As for regular grammer school and HS, I've had no complaints about my kid's history classes and they get taken to Williamsburg, Gettysburg, Lexington, the Freedom Trail etc. Must be a my local public schools.

How about that Tornado machine the govt. has that Senator Arlin Spector was questioned about a few years ago? :)

[Charles Weathers]

Well I did have the issue of whether the Mexican president Benito Juarez was a hero or villian with a Jesuit Priest in college. One college professor taught that he was hero for taking land and rights from the Church and Father C. taught that he was a bandit for taking land and rights from the Church.

As for regular grammer school and HS, I've had no complaints about my kid's history classes and they get taken to Williamsburg, Gettysburg, Lexington, the Freedom Trail etc. Must be a my local public schools.

How about that Tornado machine the govt. has that Senator Arlin Spector was questioned about a few years ago? :)


I'm glad to hear you have no complaints! It's nice to know that the education system SOMEWHERE works.

[7thMDYankee]

Well, let's also be careful not to assign the expert label to someone who may not even want it. Case in point - Shelby Foote. Featured heavily in Ken Burns' epic series on the Civil War, he was an author - not an historian.

At least once he made a claim in that series that was never supported with documentation of any sort. His "expertise" was the result of long standing cultural tradition, not actual historical study. As a result people re-assert his claim as though it were some sort of proven fact, when in reality - it's just what Shelby Foote (and others) thinks. [Actually, some months ago we were debating this point of Shelby Foote's claims on this forum, and the best 'documentation' provided was merely, "he's right because I agree with him." That's not historical work.]

Before an avalanche of posts consuming an enormous amount of bandwidth come forth... I like Shelby Foote, I like his works - I'm re-reading them right now as a matter of fact; however, by his own admission he was an author and not an historian. And as an author - he was one of the finest.

[7thMDYankee]

The education system is actually fine. As a public high school teacher the chief failure in learning for this current rising generation can be found in parenting - or the lack of it. I teach high school juniors - who will come trotting in the door in about ten minutes as a matter of fact - and it amazes me how many parents believe their job of being a parent ended around the 5th grade.

They buy their kids fancy cars, tell them to get jobs that keep them out until 10 or 11 every night of the week, push them into sports and rec leagues (gotta get that scholarship money!), spare no expense getting them every electronic toy that marketers can sell, etc... then wonder why they are not focused on school!?!?

Parents like to scold me for not doing my job... of course I ask them if they understood the policy when covered on back to school night. Usually there is a dead silence because they know they are not one of the 5 of 150 sets of parents I saw that night. They soon realize the errors of their ways and apologize. (And they also promise to actually ask their kid what they learned in school that day...)

Education starts and ends with parents - period.

[Charles Weathers]

The education system is actually fine. As a public high school teacher the chief failure in learning for this current rising generation can be found in parenting - or the lack of it. I teach high school juniors - who will come trotting in the door in about ten minutes as a matter of fact - and it amazes me how many parents believe their job of being a parent ended around the 5th grade.

They buy their kids fancy cars, tell them to get jobs that keep them out until 10 or 11 every night of the week, push them into sports and rec leagues (gotta get that scholarship money!), spare no expense getting them every electronic toy that marketers can sell, etc... then wonder why they are not focused on school!?!?

Parents like to scold me for not doing my job... of course I ask them if they understood the policy when covered on back to school night. Usually there is a dead silence because they know they are not one of the 5 of 150 sets of parents I saw that night. They soon realize the errors of their ways and apologize. (And they also promise to actually ask their kid what they learned in school that day...)

Education starts and ends with parents - period.

My mom has been a teacher my entire life. I'm afraid it hasn't been that easy for her. Most of the parents blame her even when she has PROOF that it is the kid's fault. I suppose I was one of the lucky ones. My parents pushed education and self sufficiancy. I begged for a job in high school and they wouldn't let me because it would interfere with school. I worked hard in school and had academic and music scholarships. I completely paid for 6 years of college with scholarships and stipends (2 bachelors and a masters). I just want kids to have the same love for education that I have always had! I am thankful to hear of so many teachers and other educators on this board that take their jobs seriously. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE!

[tompritchett]

tell them to get jobs that keep them out until 10 or 11 every night of the week,

Not realizing that sleep deprivation reduces their overall learning ability and, according to recent research, may have serious consequences to their overall health, to include greater chance for obesity as well as the early onset of type II diabetes.

[toptimlrd]

The education system is actually fine. As a public high school teacher the chief failure in learning for this current rising generation can be found in parenting - or the lack of it. I teach high school juniors - who will come trotting in the door in about ten minutes as a matter of fact - and it amazes me how many parents believe their job of being a parent ended around the 5th grade.

They buy their kids fancy cars, tell them to get jobs that keep them out until 10 or 11 every night of the week, push them into sports and rec leagues (gotta get that scholarship money!), spare no expense getting them every electronic toy that marketers can sell, etc... then wonder why they are not focused on school!?!?

Parents like to scold me for not doing my job... of course I ask them if they understood the policy when covered on back to school night. Usually there is a dead silence because they know they are not one of the 5 of 150 sets of parents I saw that night. They soon realize the errors of their ways and apologize. (And they also promise to actually ask their kid what they learned in school that day...)

Education starts and ends with parents - period.


I travel 5 days a week for work but you know what? All my son's teachers know me and have my cell phone number. My wife is also known to them and one of us makes the conferences, open houses, etc. if both can't. We are there for special events such as drill meets (he's on the ROTC drill team, and we are both active boosters), football games and band concerts when he was in band (we were very active band parents), etc. You are very right that education starts in the home and becomes a partnership with the teachers. I had some fun with my son since his economics teacher was also personal friend of mine.

[toptimlrd]

Not realizing that sleep deprivation reduces their overall learning ability and, according to recent research, may have serious consequences to their overall health, to include greater chance for obesity as well as the early onset of type II diabetes.

Tom,

You are dead right. My son does work but only on the weekends that he doesn't ave an extracurricular activity. He puts in about 12 hours a day on the wekends and loves it (he's 18 by the way). He understands the echelon of importance: school, extracurricular, work, fun.

[RWelker]

Civil War, Rev War, cultural, general, you name it. My dad is a history buff (hmm, wonder where I got it?!) so museums, historical places, parks, etc. were always on the top of the list for vacations. From middle thru college I read an average of 10 books a year (not including assigned for school) mainly on history.

This sounds remarkably familiar.
Unfortunately for my teachers, I showed a regrettable lack of interest when we studied things like 'the economy in 1897'. So much of my US history class covered that kind of thing, in fact, that when we did the unit on the Civil War my history teacher was a little shocked at my enthusiasm.
But every vacation we take is to a battlefield. That frequently means that my Dad and I (and my mom, who plays along) stand in the middle of a field somewhere examinging monuments and discussing maps while my brother wanders hopefully towards the car. :rolleyes:

[7thMDYankee]

You are welcome, and thank you.

[Tarheel57]

I have really begun to hate the documentaries where the camera follows the narrator while he wanders around modern locations. Two good examples are "Terry Jone's Barbarians" and "Rebels and Redcoats". Horrible. Terry Jones babbles about trade in the Roman Empire while the camera shows us a modern warehouse scene with forklifts loading trucks; and then talks about tribal migrations while the camera follows bicyclists passing a cafe. Some of the information is very suspect, too. In "Rebels and Redcoats", the narrator talks about trade between the colonies and Britain while standing in the middle of the Boston Stock Exchange. Then the camera follows him in his car, "narrating" while wearing his cool shades. Gawd, if I want to see 18 wheelers and coffee shops, I'll just walk outside! My feeling is that this is simply a low-budget way to do a history program, if you can call it history, that is.

[michael.shafto]

When I got out of the Army the first time I went to my local college. I enrolled in the American History from 1776 until 1900 class, assuming that with my love of the past, it would be an excellent learning experience. I went into the lecture hall with excitement, as I had heard that the professor was brilliant. He entered the room, sat his briefcase down, and began to speak about the sylabus (sp?) He then told us that he teaches the POLITICS ONLY, AS SOLDIERS, THEN AS WELL AS NOW, ARE MINDLESS IDIOTIC SAVAGES. I got up and left the class. Outside, I saw two of my classmates. They were as disturbed as I. They both looked at me and one told me "Alpha Battery, 120th Field Artillery. Both of us." I nodded and replied HHC, 1st Battalion, 16th Infantry.

I never returned to the class, and to this day I am disappointed. Here was a professor, who was supposed to be, at least in my mind, an expert on history. I feel cheated, but feel WORSE for those who stayed in the class, and got a very distorted view of history.

[Pat.Lewis]

I enrolled in the American History from 1776 until 1900 class... POLITICS ONLY, AS SOLDIERS, THEN AS WELL AS NOW, ARE MINDLESS IDIOTIC SAVAGES.

Well, to be fair the class was a 1776-1900 survey. Honestly, I don't know what professor should be bold/insane enough to take on that chunk of time in a semester anyway. The history department should know better than to assign that much. There's no way anyone can cover more than basic political events with so little classroom time. Point being, though the prof explained his decision poorly, I understand the decision to drop war by the wayside. When it comes down to it, war is quite arguably the side show to the big show, historiographically speaking... but that's probably not an opinion often shared around the campfire, is it?

[Rob Weaver]

I used to wear my ROTC uniform to an English class because it made the professor so nervous there was a noticible change in his lecture style. (And once gave a lecture on the theology of Just War to a seminary class while in full BDU uniform, to include LBE, Kevlar helmet and camo paint. There was a student from Autralia who never spoke to me again.)

[sbl]

I used to wear my ROTC uniform hitch hiking! This was during Viet Nam and I got plenty of rides but had to listen to drivers cuss'n out the hippies.

[sbl]

Oh Yes, I took American Military Affairs 1+2 at The College of the Holy Cross from a USMC major. What a gentleman AND scholar. He told us he only carried a pistol, unloaded, in Viet Nam as his battery was his weapon.

[vamick]

Well, to be fair the class was a 1776-1900 survey. Honestly, I don't know what professor should be bold/insane enough to take on that chunk of time in a semester anyway. The history department should know better than to assign that much. There's no way anyone can cover more than basic political events with so little classroom time. Point being, though the prof explained his decision poorly, I understand the decision to drop war by the wayside. When it comes down to it, war is quite arguably the side show to the big show, historiographically speaking... but that's probably not an opinion often shared around the campfire, is it?

Its the 'mindless idiotic savages' part that would make me walk! that kind of broad brush statement could only come from a closed minded "TENURED" (dont have to work anymore nor explain myself) professor ( with an agenda?) not from an EDUCATOR he evidently felt he could beat up on 'soldiers'! while his bigotry might fly there his statement sure wouldnt with any OTHER group! its dispicable...and for the record Im not a member of the armed forces nor should I need to be ...to claim my place in line at his "necktie party":evil:

[tompritchett]

Since I first starting tracking politics in college (we used rock slabs for books :) ), I have noticed a general trend about politicians and talking heads media commentators. Those that have actually experienced combat up close tend to be the "pacifists" that try to avoid committing our soldiers to hostilities and tend to do so only as a last resort. However those that have avoided serving in combat by whatever means tend to be those most likely push for military intervention regardless. Granted there are exceptions, but I find this trend to be usually more applicable than not.

[Tarheel57]

When I enrolled in college after the military (1983), the social sciences department was a hotbed of Leftwing propaganda. In the anthropology department, short hair and a field jacket incurred hostility from professors and students alike. They organized protests against the CIA recruiting on campus, but openly recruited for leftist programs like "Witness for Peace" in their classrooms, and featured the Sandinista Minister for Education as a speaker. During one class on the Vietnam War, the professor spent several class periods condemning US atrocities, but when I brought up VC/NVA atrocities I was shouted down by the class, and the professor asserted that these were US propaganda. After all, he told the class, why in the world would the VC/NVA "alienate the people" by committing atrocities? Gee whiz. On the last day in class we watched a video on the Vietnam War which showed the bodies of the victims of the Communists at Hue being pulled out of lime pits after the US reoccuupation of the city. "If there were no Communist atrocities", I said loudly, 'WHAT ARE THOSE?" Flustered, the professor shut off the video and ended the class.
In contrast, one of the most fair and balanced classes I had was another class on the Vietnam War taught by an ex-Marine colonel who was an advisor to LBJ. He told the class that he would teach from his perspective, but he encouraged everyone to read other viewpoints and even provided a reading list.