Muskets at school reenactments [Archive] - Civil War Reenactors Discussion Forums

Ross L. Lamoreaux

03-13-2008, 10:38 AM

I've done alot of school programs and have never had any problems. First thing, I've never called the police. It's none of their business. Go talk to the principal in person. Sometimes they can ok it. Sometimes, they have to get the superintendent to ok it. That's all I've ever done. Once it's ok'd, if you'd like, have them give you a paper saying it's ok with their signature. Even if they won't let you fire the blanks, the guns should be not a problem. I really enjoy school days, going to do another one in a couple weeks. Have fun!
In some municipalities, it is the police's business. It is a major breech of courtesy to not notify law enforcement if you are firing weapons, blanks or otherwise. In a perfect world, there would be no problem bringing in muskets, cannons, etc. In most areas in Florida where I am from, there is an assigned school resource officer or deputy whose job it is to keep order in and weapons out of school. Regardless of local laws where some folks are, a bayonet, musket, pocket knife, etc IS a weapon. I don't have to preach to the choir about the safety records at reenactments, but in this day and age, each school has a right to pick and choose what occurs in their school. That being said, I've done over 100 school presentations over the last 10 years in four counties in Florida and I would say that its about 60/40 as to carrying weapons. Yes, the little boys love the "guns", as well as many teachers, but quite frankly, living history is much more than the weapons of the era. I know, they are a big part of war, but there is a much more important historical lesson to these kids, and I've found that when presented enthusiastically, the material culture and camplife are areas of fascination as well. I think one is a poor living historian if he must rely on weaponry as a crutch for a quality presentation.

Company C, 9th KY

03-13-2008, 10:43 AM

I'd be extremely careful just going through a principal. All it takes is one child going home and saying "MOM! Guess what?! We saw Civil War soldiers and they shot their guns!" A nervous, uninformed parent + firearms at school of ANY type = tons o' trouble.
Since my wife is VP of my daughters school board, my recommendation would be to send a letter/notice/flyer or whatever home saying that (as an example) "on such-n-such date, the school will be having Civil War reenactors as guests and they will be showing how a soldier in the war lived, ate, marched, etc. They will bringing a typical soldiers gear along with their muskets to do a blank firing volley for the students." Or something along those lines at least letting parents know whats going on and if they have any objections to let the person in charge of the event know. And definitely invite the parents! It may ease tensions and maybe even get a few interested new recruits! Dont leave out the police, in most city limits it IS against the law to discharge ANY type of firearm, one 911 call about gunshots around a school and you'll have to make bail, if your lucky.

Good luck!

Respectfully,

Pvt. Kirk

FloridaConfederate

03-13-2008, 10:44 AM

R.L. Lamoreaux nailed it.

I can only add that the ones who do have an issue with it...don't speak with a drawaaaaaal.

MStuart

03-13-2008, 10:52 AM

Good advice from Ross and Rob. It seems to me you've done only 1/3 of your research. The police say "no". Next you'll need to coordinate with the school administration, then research the state laws and local ordinances on firearms (and their definition) on school grounds. Then, IF allowances are made for this type of firearm at school, coordinate again.

If you don't, and firearms aren't permitted on Michigan school grounds, be prepared to have your stuff confiscated, along with you being charged with the appropriate firearms violation.......which can end up to be pretty pricey once lawyers and missed work due to incarceration are thrown in.

You can get some good, and some not so good, advice here. But there is no substitute for doing it yourself.

Different states, different localities, different laws. CYA. Anything less may get you into a peck of trouble.

Mark

The "paper money doesn't work in the lock-up pay phone" mess

6thkentucky

03-13-2008, 10:54 AM

Motown

03-13-2008, 10:57 AM

When I was in middle school, way back in the 90's (I'm old), we had a demonstration complete with musket firing. Seeing that guy from the 24th Michigan Infantry got me into the Civil War. Now granted, this was before Columbine, Jonesboro, Virginia Tech, etc. From what I heard, that was the last year muskets were allowed at the school, as Columbine happened that following April.

Being that it's a private school, perhaps something can be worked out with all parties involved; the school administration, the school district, Local Police, even the MEA. Be sure to contact anyone that you may think should know.

If they say no, then accept it. Being concerned for children's well being is priority over loud noises and shiny things

Andrew Donovan
Proud Citizen of a "Police State"

FloridaConfederate

03-13-2008, 11:11 AM

"Proud Citizen of a "Police State"

WWTND ?

What Would Ted Nugent Do ?

Great White Hunter
Wang Dang Sweet Poo... Ah You Know the Rest Mess

Motown

03-13-2008, 11:12 AM

He moved, thankfully

Now if we can only get rid of Kid Rock

Company C, 9th KY

03-13-2008, 11:18 AM

That is why you get it ok'd with the school superintendent. The buck stops with the superintendent. Once it is ok'd with them and you have it on paper, it's fine. It will then be the school's responsibility to take care of parents flyers if they wish, or for them to contact the police if they wish. If it's going to be a big problem, you don't have to go. Other schools with less bs will be more than happy to have you. Plus alot of them pay.

I suppose we can agree to disagree. The buck does NOT stop anywhere near the superintendent. It stops with the federal, state and local laws. The super can ok anything he/she wants to, but if it breaks any ordinance, thats a violation of the school administration laws and the school can lose its funding, close its doors and get the super fired.
As much as I love reenacting, living history and sharing it with others, I could not, in good conscience, bypass the laws, regulations or other ordinances along with risking my personal freedom and gear in order to tell people, no matter what age, about this hobby.

Respectfully,

Pvt. Kirk

Ross L. Lamoreaux

03-13-2008, 11:23 AM

WWTND ?

What Would Ted Nugent Do ?

Great White Hunter
Wang Dang Sweet Poo... Ah You Know the Rest Mess
Dang, what's next, "Bayonet Scratch Fever"?

Company C, 9th KY

03-13-2008, 11:26 AM

Dang, what's next, "Bayonet Scratch Fever"?

:D :D I love it!

Pvt. Kirk

FloridaConfederate

03-13-2008, 11:39 AM

"This is a Glock 40, ....$0.50, Too Short, all of em.... talk about Glock Fowtees. Ok I'm the only one professional enough in this room, that I know of to carry this Glock 40, Im th...BANG !!!"

Now if that taint a signature line... nothin is. So based on this if you want send a notice letter, let it include when Barney Fife is coming...I'll take the n'actor with a 61' Springer and an A frame anyday.

Officer Cant Keep My Booger Hook of the Go Switch
Ok Who Hid My Flashbang's Mess
(No dogs were harmed in the filming of this video)

Duff

03-13-2008, 11:52 AM

I happened to be on both sides of a school presentation. I was a student at a school. My unit and I did a presentaion at my school.

What we did is we held the demo off school property at a nearby park. The police were informed that it would be going on. Since it wasn't on school property, it bypassed all the guns-on-schools laws.

We did send out permission slips to parents because we would be off school property.

I have also heard that if the school is wary about the guns, tell them you will take off the cone, and that this will make the weapon un-operable. That turns it into a beice of wood and some metal attached to it

Rob Weaver

03-13-2008, 12:30 PM

I've done demos with and without muskets. They're better with, IMHO. However, public schools often have a zero-tolerance policy from which they will not budge. In that case, some sort of A/V presentation may be a good back-up (At the same time, be aware of copyright and rating policies the school may also employ). I always ask about muskets right up front, near the beginning of the conversation and try to be helpful. Private schools, in my experience, are better at accepting muskets, and doing the legwork of calling the police, etc. Just check in with administration (ie the principal) to make sure that was done. Don't take the teacher's word for it. "I told them you'd be coming." In the end, be respectful, cheerful and positive, whatever you are told. It will gain you trust and a return invitation.

Poor Private

03-13-2008, 12:36 PM

Jerry'
Are you planning on doing this at GVSU? Or is it a public school? Is there private land next door that is accesible for use? Get permission of the home or land owner stack your arms there then march to them and do your firing on that property. Getting any kind of permission in Michigan to take a firearm on any school property is niegh on to impossible.
Next question if it is at GVSU do they have ROTC, if they do what do they use for weapons, for drill and demos. Maybe they can give you guys some advice.

toptimlrd

03-13-2008, 12:55 PM

I can answer the ROTC question. Most JROTC units use completely demilitarized M1903 Springfields unless they are fortunate enough to have received the more "modern" completely demilitarized M1. The rifles they use have been demilitarized to the point that they are completely useless as firearms and can never be returned to service. Barrels have been cut and plugged, firing pins removed and welded. About all they can do is have the action opened and the trigger cliked for inspection arms. Most don't even have the internal clip spring below the action any longer. Also many have had th wooden stocks broken or damaged at some point thus now have fiberglass stocks.

Poor Private

03-13-2008, 01:10 PM

If I remember correctly a young lady on the skeet shooting team,who was/is an olympic hopeful was suspended from high school. Why you ask? because someone found empty cartridges in her car. I believe she was from Michigan.

jerryeberg

03-13-2008, 01:49 PM

It's it a private school (Borculo Christian School if that means anything). I'm having the secretary contact the Ottawa County Sheriff, maybe they'll be more helpful than the Zeeland PD.

Major Duane

03-13-2008, 01:53 PM

If you aren't sure, for God's sake, don't go anywhere near a school with a firearm -- musket or not. Folks can rant and rave all they want about "police states", etc., but most people have no clue the kind of serious issue (not to mention nerve wracking) a lockdown is...I've sweated through a few with my students. What a great age we live in...;)

Something to consider as a compromise position, if you really feel a weapon is necessary for your demonstration, is a dummy cutout. I put my musket down on a 2 x 4 and outlined it, cut it out with a jigsaw and attached a length of pipe to the top as the barrel and a dowel rod on the bottom to approximate a ramrod. I purposely DID NOT stain it so it didn't look like a real stock in any way. It approximates the length and gives a decent prop to talk about loading and firing with...but no one pays it a second thought and I've never had a problem with it.

OR ask the school to set up a T.V. (many have screens with projection systems now) and videotape a firing demonstration to show the students. I've done that with my musket to compare it to a .303 SMLE of World War One vintage.

Most of the time, the students (especially in elementary school) don't need to see a weapon to be interested. They get into the hardtack, the medical topics, the material culture questions.

John Adams
Huckleberry Mess
& History Department Chair,
White Knoll High School
Lexington, SC

Slickrick214

03-13-2008, 02:25 PM

What a great age we live in...;)

Yea what a great age we live in when re-enactors can't bring guns to school because ignorant people automatically think guns are bad and thier kids are going to get shot. It must be fun living in the CSSR (California Soviet Socialist Republic), JSSR (Jersey Soviet Socialist Republic) and MSSR (Michigan Soviet Socialist Republic):lol:

I consider our unit very lucky. Once a year in early spring we do a living history/re-enactment at York Catholic Highschool near Harrisburg PA. Not only do we bring our guns to the school but the kids fight along with us! Every year kids who make a certain GPA get to be a part of this event. They are given blue/gray uniforms, hats, canteens, cups, and wooden cap guns. Before the re-enactment the kids get thier stuff together and parade on the baseball field infront of thier parents. When the parade is done the kids along with the re-enactors line up on the baseball field and fight. Last year the objective was for the Confederate kids to capture a dummy Federal cannon. We went back and forth with the Federal re-enactors and kids and they would go nuts every time we shot a volley and the 12 pounder went off. Its really cool and I wish more schools would be as liberal with guns and cannons as York Catholic is. Its great that the kids don't just watch it but thier actually a part of the fight with thier own gear and guns.

On Yorks home webpage they have a slide show with pictures. If you bear with it for a minute or two they have pictures of last years event. You can see the kids fighiting and the cannon in the dugout.
http://www.yorkcatholic.org/

jerryeberg

03-13-2008, 02:30 PM

dummy cutout.

Yep, us being associated with a university, I forsaw problems with having muskets on campus, so I went and made 11 wooden muskets. They are being brought whether we can bring our real ones or not; they will be the ones that the student-soldiers will use to learn how to drill.

John1862

03-13-2008, 02:55 PM

Last year the objective was for the Confederate kids to capture a dummy Federal cannon. We went back and forth with the Federal re-enactors and kids and they would go nuts every time we shot a volley and the 12 pounder went off. Its really cool and I wish more schools would be as liberal with guns and cannons as York Catholic is. Its great that the kids don't just watch it but thier actually a part of the fight with thier own gear and guns.

But, did the students actually learn anything, besides how to burn powder? Were correct or appropriate tactics used? Personally I'd rather be shown/taught Guard Mount and how to do Guard Duty, fatigue, etc., which took up the majority of the soldiers time.

The school presentations I've taken part in and done individually focus on the mundane aspect of the soldiers' life... and from feedback I've recieved it leaves the students with a better understanding and respect of the war and the men, rather than leaving them with the (not-so-untrue) image of reenactors as hicks who like to shoot guns.

"Its really cool and I wish more schools would be as liberal with guns and cannons..." -Slick

BigYankee

03-13-2008, 03:23 PM

I live in the so called "CSSR (California Soviet Socialist Republic), " and firearm laws here are rather out of control, but I also do Vietnam era reenacting and just did a presentation last month at a private high school. I know for a fact the police were informed that we would be there and they were fine with it as long as we did not fire and did not bring ammunition. Also I've done CW presentations at schools, and from my experience they have always contacted law enforcement, as did my unit commander if we were to bring our weapons bayonet, pocket knife, or firearm always notify the police and check with all laws before doing something you are not sure about.

Iron Jim Rackham

03-13-2008, 03:32 PM

I live an hour and a half away from the NYC, and have done a colonial living history presentation at an elementary school ,every year for the past 10 years. I have displayed and demonstrated flintlock muskets, rifles, fusils and fowlers without incident. The same school hosts a Civil War re-enactor who displays and discusses the arms and equipment of a Union soldier.

Firearms policy may ultimately be a policy of a particular school.

Craig L Barry

03-13-2008, 03:45 PM

Technically, aren't muskets reproductions of pre-1898 weapons, or curios and relics, according to the ATF, not "guns" per se? If the Federal government does not think the repro muskets are guns, why would the school? I realize state and local municipalities can vary...The broader point is, I guess, if the school or Barney Fife does not want you to bring your muskets whether loaded or unloaded it is still worth doing a presentation in period attire. Pass around some hardtack if nothing else. If the kids want to see some powder burned, we have Civil War (re)enactments about all over the country most weekends from April to Nov.

Slickrick214

03-13-2008, 05:52 PM

But, did the students actually learn anything, besides how to burn powder? Were correct or appropriate tactics used? Personally I'd rather be shown/taught Guard Mount and how to do Guard Duty, fatigue, etc., which took up the majority of the soldiers time.

The school presentations I've taken part in and done individually focus on the mundane aspect of the soldiers' life... and from feedback I've recieved it leaves the students with a better understanding and respect of the war and the men, rather than leaving them with the (not-so-untrue) image of reenactors as hicks who like to shoot guns.

"Its really cool and I wish more schools would be as liberal with guns and cannons..." -Slick

Yes its a three or four day event. The first two days is teaching the kids about the life of a solider (the living history part) the last day is the re-enactment. As for the quote at the end of the end of your post I think you know what I meant. Its a good small event and it would be nice if more schools were as open minded as York Catholic is. There probably aren't to many events out there where the kids fight alongside the re-enactors and you have a 12 pound cannon in the dug out of the baseball field.

I live in the so called "CSSR (California Soviet Socialist Republic), " and firearm laws here are rather out of control, but I also do Vietnam era reenacting and just did a presentation last month at a private high school. I know for a fact the police were informed that we would be there and they were fine with it as long as we did not fire and did not bring ammunition. Also I've done CW presentations at schools, and from my experience they have always contacted law enforcement, as did my unit commander if we were to bring our weapons bayonet, pocket knife, or firearm always notify the police and check with all laws before doing something you are not sure about.

Vietnam re-enactment..thats something I wouldn't mind trying.

Technically, aren't muskets reproductions of pre-1898 weapons, or curios and relics, according to the ATF, not "guns" per se? If the Federal government does not think the repro muskets are guns, why would the school? I realize state and local municipalities can vary...The broader point is, I guess, if the school or Barney Fife does not want you to bring your muskets whether loaded or unloaded it is still worth doing a presentation in period attire. Pass around some hardtack if nothing else. If the kids want to see some powder burned, we have Civil War (re)enactments about all over the country most weekends from April to Nov.

First off I think you answered your own question when you said..I realize state and local municipalities can vary...The broader point. I agree that you don't have to shoot a gun to make it a good living history event. I was saying that for this event though in York we have both. Its both a living history event and a re-enactment.

FloridaConfederate

03-13-2008, 10:22 PM

Folks can rant and rave all they want about "police states", etc., but most people have no clue the kind of serious issue (not to mention nerve wracking) a lockdown is...I've sweated through a few with my students. What a great age we live in...;)

Great point.

Drawing a correlation between the illegal and depraved acts of children lacking parental involvement / control coupled with no appreciation of right or wrong....or value of human life

with..

law abiding adult citizens connected with a university who have sought permission ahead of time with local LE and the school to do a supervised historical presentation.

What are your thoughts on fires ? That's pretty dangerous stuff there, fire.

Perhaps you should just show a picture or video of bilin kofe ?

Pvt Homer Hoplophobe
Havent Got a Clue Mess

madisontigers

03-14-2008, 02:00 AM

Check out the ATF'S info :ATF Publication 5300.4, Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide.
Have a look at regualtions : 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 and the regulations in 27 CFR Part 178. They are still "firearms" as defined in 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44. Furthermore, I utilize a source for school, and it accordingly states the following definition of a deadly weapon; that is : "A deadly weapon is generally defined as a firearm or anything manifestly designed, made, or adapted for the purposes of inflicting death or serious physical injury." And, although not Michigan, you may findd this Ohio legal definition of a firearm, which was defined as : "Firearm" means any deadly weapon capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the action of an explosive or combustible propellant. "Firearm" includes an unloaded firearm, and any firearm that is inoperable but that can readily be rendered operable.(2) When determining whether a firearm is capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the action of an explosive or combustible propellant, the trier of fact may rely upon circumstantial evidence, including, but not limited to, the representations and actions of the individual exercising control over the firearm." NOw, to show you how complicated, as well as how confusing the law can be, the following was deducted in regards to percussion ignition systems : " "Dangerous ordnance" does not include any of the following: (1) Any firearm, including a military weapon and the ammunition for that weapon, and regardless of its actual age, that employs a percussion cap or other obsolete ignition system, or that is designed and safe for use only with black powder; (2) Any pistol, rifle, or shotgun, designed or suitable for sporting purposes, including a military weapon as issued or as modified, and the ammunition for that weapon, unless the firearm is an automatic or sawed-off firearm; (3) Any cannon or other artillery piece that, regardless of its actual age, is of a type in accepted use prior to 1887, has no mechanical, hydraulic, pneumatic, or other system for absorbing recoil and returning the tube into battery without displacing the carriage, and is designed and safe for use only with black powder; (4) Black powder, priming quills, and percussion caps possessed and lawfully used to fire a cannon of a type defined in division (L)(3) of this section during displays, celebrations, organized matches or shoots, and target practice, and smokeless and black powder, primers, and percussion caps possessed and lawfully used as a propellant or ignition device in small-arms or small-arms ammunition; (5) Dangerous ordnance that is inoperable or inert and cannot readily be rendered operable or activated, and that is kept as a trophy, souvenir, curio, or museum piece. (6) Any device that is expressly excepted from the definition of a destructive device pursuant to the "Gun Control Act of 1968," 82 Stat. 1213, 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4), as amended, and regulations issued under that act (Ohio).
The trick is local and state laws. After studying the laws of Michigan, in regards to firearms law, I would reccomend that you not attempt to take your musket to school. By checking most black powder weapons dealers, you will see that they will not ship to some of the following states : Michigan, Tennessee, and New Jersey. This should send up a fairly large 'red flag'. For example, it is well known by those who study law, in particulair law relating to criminal offenses, that some major cities in the U.S. outlaw private citizens owning firearms. I would suffice to say, as well, that they could probably nail you to the wall for having black powder, as well as percussion caps. And despite the legality of the issue, a Police Officer can still charge you, arrest you, and make your life miserable for months, that is until you can state your case in court. Being found not guilty is a good deal, but tell that to someone who has had to sit in jail awaiting their trial, and spent thousands on legal fees.

Regards,

David S. Long

redleggeddevil

03-14-2008, 02:34 AM

I haven't done a CW school program in a while, but I do 18th century programs pretty regularly. I am paranoid, but believe in covering myself as much as possible.

To that end, I have several rules I always follow:
1) Send a letter to the school at least a month in advance, stating what equipment you will or will not be bringing with you.

2) I do not bring anything combustible with me. No powder and--if possible-- nothing that has ever held powder. I have a powderhorn that is strictly decorative, and that is the one that comes to schools with me.

3) I have even taken the step of buying a flintlock with no touchhole drilled, making it impossible to fire the musket. This also renders the musket a non-weapon in the eyes of the law. It is an extreme step (and, I concede, might be a nuance that is missed by a nervous cop responding to an "armed man in school" call), but I want to protect myself, the kids and make sure my invitation is not rescinded.

4) I secure any bladed weapons with black zip-ties, so that nobody can draw them.

5) My letter always includes a standard disclaimer: "While I will not bring any firearms with me, I will be bringing pieces that closely resemble original muskets. Please inform me if your school would prefer that I not carry these onto school property."

Thus far (knock wood) I have had no problems. Yes, it is a pain in the neck (and points south), but I have never had a school balk at my programs, even when I lived in New York.

Major Duane

03-14-2008, 07:06 AM

FloridaConfederate

03-14-2008, 08:17 AM

law abiding adult citizens connected with a university who have sought permission ahead of time with local LE and the school to do a supervised historical presentation.

Your assertion that myself or anyone in this thread has remotely suggested that you show up with a gun, musket or salad fork on a campus with out clearance and permission is as disingenuous as your...

drawing a correlation between Columbine and the afore stated quote (twice).

I am fully in agreement with your point on schools and shooting. No argument whatsoever. However, we are not talking about students sneaking on campus an executing people in cold blood. See the difference ? These folks did everything right, are bona fide, sought permission etc...yet were turned down by LE which thinks seemingly like you.

Do you really think doing a demonstration with CW muzzeloaders, static or blank fire, as described is like or equal risk of Columbine ? I have read your posts...you're a smart guy.

hconverse

03-14-2008, 08:29 AM

Guys,

After 15 years of doing school shows of various types I may be able to lend some advice. If you plan on doing firing, try to do it off of school propery.

Bringing any type of combustible on school property is typically not a good idea not only from the a permission/legal standpoint but also from a liability standpoint. Most schools, both public and private have no provisions to cover any problems that would occur is there is an accident or injury. Any demonstation or school show that I've done that has firing has always been done off of school property to eliminate these types of problems.

Another suggestion to all who are thinking of taking a firearm or edged weapon into a school. Let the school principal and superintendent handle any arrangements with the police. Law enforcement tends to cooperate better with educators than "living historians with guns". I alway insist and having a signed copy of the permission to bring firearms into the school ground sent to me two weeks in advance and make sure you have a signed copy of the permissions that you have been given ON YOU as you enter the grounds. Save any problems from being stopped by staff member or even in-school law enforcement.

Scott Sonntag
Citizens Guard

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

03-14-2008, 08:31 AM

Hallo!

Due to the varied and often conflicting federal, state, and local laws, RESEARCH and KNOW what applies WHERE you live!!!!!

In the Post Columbine World, things can be different, and I would not expect or depend upon the local city policeman or SWAT team to be well read and read versed on the nuances of the finer points of the "Law."

In my state, the law is clear. Just about anything considered "dangerous" can be illegal at a school- and that includes a muzzeloader or C & B revolver because they can fire a "projectile." Shoot (no pun intended), a bayonet and pocket knife falls under the same ruling.

Here, it requires the written permission of the school board or its designee so the Olde Daze of a classroom teacher's inviation no longer cuts it.
Granted, I have heard from Ohioans who accept the verbal invites and never had a problem. My reply, is "Yet."
All it takes is a neighbor across the street seeing you carrying a musket into a school and calling 911...

Even with signed school board "permission," the "looks" and "glares" were oppressive.

For me personally, I stopped when I was asked if I could NOT bring the gun, bayonet, and knife. NOT that a fine and worthwhile presentation cannot be made without them, and not that soldiers were always under arms, but I made a principled choice (likley, definitely to the kids' detriment and loss).
A local school, with a long standing tradition of marching the kids to an encampment set up in the city park goes on every year. (However, it may be an "oversight" as "guns" and "parks" usually do not go together.)

At any rate, IMHO, know YOUR LAWS and stay out of trouble... (an ounce of prevention...)

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS

1stTexas

03-14-2008, 09:30 AM

A Civil War era rifled musket is not a firearm in the eyes of BATF and is considedred an antique UNTIL IT IS CAPPED. That is why you do not need a FFL to send them through the mail and a convicted felon can purchase one without a background check. Anyone ans well as a convicted felon can wear and possess one anywhere, if the weapon is not capped.

However, the local police do not know anything about weapons laws. Unfortunately, the police have the guns and the jails so it does not matter what they know. The law against "false arrest" is never enforced. At least not in my lifetime.

Our present gun laws were passed to leep a small segment of the population from obtaining them. The only way the lawmakers could do that is to pass laws that effect EVERYONE. Laws cannot discriminate and the police cannot perform selective enforcement, unless they can reap some benefit from doing so. Therefore, the lawmakers had to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

6th Alabama

03-14-2008, 10:38 AM

Having spent 34 years in public education I can say for certain that different schools have different policies. In education, policy is law. Policy is the intent of the governing board, usually a five or seven member board of education. If permission is granted for the presentation it would be a nice gesture to invite the board members to be present. If any questions come about later on having a board member present could work in your favor.

In the post-Columbine era most school districts have some sort of security force other than local law enforcement. A request needs to go through school security. Maybe the building principal does this, maybe a central administrative office person does it. It may be worth considering a request for security personnel assistance in bringing the weapons into the school facility and remaining present during the Civil War demonstration.

Before anything is done presentation wise, go through the routine with each and every weapon to demonstrate all are unloaded. If a demonstrator is needed, the security officer will demonstrate. Obviously, this takes some prior preparation (and perhaps coaching) well in advance of the presentation.

Each school district is its own little world. Do not assume the procedure that worked in your town will work in the neighboring town. They might want something entirely different.

bob 125th nysvi

03-14-2008, 10:58 AM

we have done a number of school events and for each one you have to do differnet hurdles.

Basically it boils down to what you want to do is irrelevant, what the school is willing to permit is all that matters. You have to qwork inside their rules if you want to be invited back.

Sometime you find out that you are on a short leash for the first event or two then as the school gets comfortable with your group's presentation you'll find that you are allowed to attapt more and more.

First what is the school POLICY on firearms? Some schools have a zero tolerance policy and thiat is that. The only people allowed to carry weapons on school property are law enforcement officials on official business.

If the school does not have a blanket policy you want to get the permission of the principle, the superintendent and maybe the Board.

If weapons are approved they may just be approved in a non-firing role. If allowed to fire it is the SCHOOL"s responsibility to notify and clear it with the local law enforcement officials.

The school should also send home a notice to the parents of the children attending the lesson. It should allow parents to 'opt out' of the weapons part of it. The last thin you want is to be in th emiddle of a mess between the school and some anti-gun parent. The local media will only portary you as irresponsible gun nuts (using you to bash the local school admin).

The school is not exempt from complying with local gun ordanices. If there is a 'no discharge of firearms within' law you are stuck with it and do the best you can.

Generally we find that schools in a suburban/urban setting will not allow the discharge of firearms for fear of tangling with the neighbors (even if everything else is cool). Schools on large campuses or in low population areas generally allow us to demonstrate and discharge our weapons.

madisontigers

03-14-2008, 11:48 AM

Bob,

You bring up a good point, which is : What the individual schools policy is. For example, the private College that I attend is very relaxed when it comes to that stuff. However, the state funded college where I am employed, well, that is a whole different story.

David Long

madisontigers

03-14-2008, 11:59 AM

"
A Civil War era rifled musket is not a firearm in the eyes of BATF and is considedred an antique UNTIL IT IS CAPPED."
That isn't the same verbage that I deducted from the ATF'S stance on black powder weapons. Yes, they are not considered weapons, but, many states consider any object a firearm that can shoot; that is, any object capable of propelling a projectile,whwereby it uses some method of ignition in order to propel the projectile. So, some states do indeed consider muskets firearms. For example, Tennessee, New Jersey, and California.

"That is why you do not need a FFL to send them through the mail and a convicted felon can purchase one without a background check. Anyone ans well as a convicted felon can wear and possess one anywhere, if the weapon is not capped."

You are somewhat correct, but what about New Jersey, as well as the other states that prohibit the shipment of black powder weapons?

"However, the local police do not know anything about weapons laws. Unfortunately, the police have the guns and the jails so it does not matter what they know. The law against "false arrest" is never enforced. At least not in my lifetime. "

Sir, I hope your intnent here was that, rather, some LEO'S are not familiar with the gun law. Before I decided to puruse a career, in the education field, Law Enforcement was my proffesion. Yes, there are some officers that are ignorant, but, what proffesion is totally void of ignorant employees? Many of these men end up doing the nations dirty work.

Our present gun laws were passed to leep a small segment of the population from obtaining them. The only way the lawmakers could do that is to pass laws that effect EVERYONE. Laws cannot discriminate and the police cannot perform selective enforcement, unless they can reap some benefit from doing so. Therefore, the lawmakers had to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I am a strong proponent of the 2nd Amendment. However, knowing the laws, well, it can keep your tail out of a heap of trouble.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

03-14-2008, 12:28 PM

Hallo!

The Ohio Revised Code may be tedious, so read or skip over it as you will:

2923.122 Illegal conveyance or possession of deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance or of object indistinguishable from firearm in school safety zone.
(A) No person shall knowingly convey, or attempt to convey, a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance into a school safety zone.
(B) No person shall knowingly possess a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance in a school safety zone.
(C) No person shall knowingly possess an object in a school safety zone if both of the following apply:
(1) The object is indistinguishable from a firearm, whether or not the object is capable of being fired.
(2) The person indicates that the person possesses the object and that it is a firearm, or the person knowingly displays or brandishes the object and indicates that it is a firearm.
(D)(1) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(a) An officer, agent, or employee of this or any other state or the United States, or a law enforcement officer, who is authorized to carry deadly weapons or dangerous ordnance and is acting within the scope of the officer’s, agent’s, or employee’s duties, a security officer employed by a board of education or governing body of a school during the time that the security officer is on duty pursuant to that contract of employment, or any other person who has written authorization from the board of education or governing body of a school to convey deadly weapons or dangerous ordnance into a school safety zone or to possess a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance in a school safety zone and who conveys or possesses the deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance in accordance with that authorization;
(b) Any person who is employed in this state, who is authorized to carry deadly weapons or dangerous ordnance, and who is subject to and in compliance with the requirements of section 109.801 of the Revised Code, unless the appointing authority of the person has expressly specified that the exemption provided in division (D)(1)(b) of this section does not apply to the person.
(2) Division (C) of this section does not apply to premises upon which home schooling is conducted. Division (C) of this section also does not apply to a school administrator, teacher, or employee who possesses an object that is indistinguishable from a firearm for legitimate school purposes during the course of employment, a student who uses an object that is indistinguishable from a firearm under the direction of a school administrator, teacher, or employee, or any other person who with the express prior approval of a school administrator possesses an object that is indistinguishable from a firearm for a legitimate purpose, including the use of the object in a ceremonial activity, a play, reenactment, or other dramatic presentation, or a ROTC activity or another similar use of the object.
(3) This section does not apply to a person who conveys or attempts to convey a handgun into, or possesses a handgun in, a school safety zone if, at the time of that conveyance, attempted conveyance, or possession of the handgun, all of the following apply:
(a) The person does not enter into a school building or onto school premises and is not at a school activity.
(b) The person is carrying a valid license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun issued to the person under section 2923.125 or 2923.1213 of the Revised Code or a license to carry a concealed handgun that was issued by another state with which the attorney general has entered into a reciprocity agreement under section 109.69 of the Revised Code.
(c) The person is in the school safety zone in accordance with 18 U.S.C. 922(q)(2)(B).
(d) The person is not knowingly in a place described in division (B)(1) or (B)(3) to (10) of section 2923.126 of the Revised Code.
(E)(1) Whoever violates division (A) or (B) of this section is guilty of illegal conveyance or possession of a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance in a school safety zone. Except as otherwise provided in this division, illegal conveyance or possession of a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance in a school safety zone is a felony of the fifth degree. If the offender previously has been convicted of a violation of this section, illegal conveyance or possession of a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance in a school safety zone is a felony of the fourth degree.
(2) Whoever violates division (C) of this section is guilty of illegal possession of an object indistinguishable from a firearm in a school safety zone. Except as otherwise provided in this division, illegal possession of an object indistinguishable from a firearm in a school safety zone is a misdemeanor of the first degree. If the offender previously has been convicted of a violation of this section, illegal possession of an object indistinguishable from a firearm in a school safety zone is a felony of the fifth degree.
(F)(1) In addition to any other penalty imposed upon a person who is convicted of or pleads guilty to a violation of this section and subject to division (F)(2) of this section, if the offender has not attained nineteen years of age, regardless of whether the offender is attending or is enrolled in a school operated by a board of education or for which the state board of education prescribes minimum standards under section 3301.07 of the Revised Code, the court shall impose upon the offender a class four suspension of the offender’s probationary driver’s license, restricted license, driver’s license, commercial driver’s license, temporary instruction permit, or probationary commercial driver’s license that then is in effect from the range specified in division (A)(4) of section 4510.02 of the Revised Code and shall deny the offender the issuance of any permit or license of that type during the period of the suspension.
If the offender is not a resident of this state, the court shall impose a class four suspension of the nonresident operating privilege of the offender from the range specified in division (A)(4) of section 4510.02 of the Revised Code.
(2) If the offender shows good cause why the court should not suspend one of the types of licenses, permits, or privileges specified in division (F)(1) of this section or deny the issuance of one of the temporary instruction permits specified in that division, the court in its discretion may choose not to impose the suspension, revocation, or denial required in that division.
(G) As used in this section, “object that is indistinguishable from a firearm” means an object made, constructed, or altered so that, to a reasonable person without specialized training in firearms, the object appears to be a firearm.
Effective Date: 04-08-2004; 03-14-2007

I did not post the section on sharp or pointy things.

In this state, individual schools may set up their own PPP (Policy, Procedure, Protocol) that is more restrictive than State Law, but not less restrictive.
A teacher can invite you, but it does change your liability/potential penalty (5th Degree Felony) under the Law.

"...or any other person who with the express prior approval of a school administrator possesses an object that is indistinguishable from a firearm for a legitimate purpose, including the use of the object in a ceremonial activity, a play, reenactment, or other dramatic presentation, or a ROTC activity or another similar use of the object."

CHS

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

03-14-2008, 12:34 PM

Hallo!

And yes, it is good to "clear" your presentation with prior notice to the childrens' parents.

At my last presentation to 4th and 5th graders, there was one mentally- challenged, Emotionally Handicapped and Severally Emotionally Disturbed student included in the audience that screamed horrendously when I held up my "Enfield."

CHS

unclefrank

03-14-2008, 01:28 PM

When dealing with the cops, make sure the refusal comes from the chief, or the highest ranking officer you can contact. Most departments have low ranking fat asses working desk jobs who think they own the place.

Slickrick214

03-14-2008, 02:28 PM

I'm always glad to debate the constitutionality of firearms, fire, etc. in "safe" confines of cyberspace. But, when it's your kid and 28 others I'm responsible for in a classroom waiting for the SWAT team to escort us out of the building, I frankly don't care what you or anyone else believes about the right to bear arms. It's not the kind of thing I'd thought I confront as a teacher when I signed on eighteen years ago. Never thought I'd have to tell my students that their bookbags should be worn on the back or chest as they evacuate because their textbooks might turn a bullet pointed in their direction.

We don't have school shootings every day and I don't live in a violent neighborhood -- but Columbine wasn't in Compton either.

I believe in gun ownership, the right to protect your home and property, but if you enter a school with a musket in 2008 and haven't gotten prior permission, reap the whirlwind. You're an idiot and deserve what you get. ;)

John Adams
Huckleberry Mess

This has nothing to do with someone sneaking onto school property with a gun. What Mr. Rideout said was right.

Your assertion that myself or anyone in this thread has remotely suggested that you show up with a gun, musket or salad fork on a campus with out clearance and permission is as disingenuous as your...

drawing a correlation between Columbine and the afore stated quote (twice).

I am fully in agreement with your point on schools and shooting. No argument whatsoever. However, we are not talking about students sneaking on campus an executing people in cold blood. See the difference ? These folks did everything right, are bona fide, sought permission etc...yet were turned down by LE which thinks seemingly like you.

Do you really think doing a demonstration with CW muzzeloaders, static or blank fire, as described is like or equal risk of Columbine ? I have read your posts...you're a smart guy.

If a person goes through all the right stuff they should have every right to bring thier guns to a living history event/ re-enactment. Thiers no danger to anyone. Your argument is so flawed because again quoting Mr. Rideout; doing a demonstration with CW muzzeloaders, static or blank fire, as described has no equal risk of a Columbine.

Major Duane

03-14-2008, 02:45 PM

I'm in no way equating a muzzle loader at a living history with Columbine.

The thread began discussing the pros, cons, and realities of using a weapon on school grounds for a living history. When I started reenacting back in the 80s, I did it myself on more than one occassion. My point is, the world HAS changed and you need to be clear...very clear...on what will and won't be permitted before you step on a school campus.

For better or worse, we don't differentiate on the intercom between an Enfield and a AK-47...all we hear is "Lockdown". I don't want to take your guns away...I'm just trying to save you some grief.

I wish each of you all the best...God Bless.

John Adams
Huckleberry Mess

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

03-14-2008, 02:58 PM

Hallo!

My wife is a high school history teacher who used to take in 18th century clothing and dress up a male and female student, and then go outside to demonstrate the loading and firing of a flintlock rifle (with a double blank charge to simulate the sound of an actual firing).
(One thing former students never fail to recall from her class when they meet my wife years later..)

A friend, another teacher, used to bring in his CW cannon.

Whether reality or perception, she discontinued the practice in the Post Columbine Era lest some teacher haivng missed the e-mail or notice, or a neighbor near the school, interepret the report as a suspicious real gun shot or three, and call in the police and SWAT unit as "shots fired."

CHS

(In addition to fire and tornado drills, our schools here practice "armed intruder" and "lockdown" defense drills now.)

Danny

03-14-2008, 04:41 PM

If you aren't sure, for God's sake, don't go anywhere near a school with a firearm -- musket or not...Something to consider as a compromise position, if you really feel a weapon is necessary for your demonstration, is a dummy cutout...Most of the time, the students...don't need to see a weapon to be interested. They get into the hardtack, the medical topics, the material culture questions. John Adams...White Knoll High School...

Respectfully, John, are you serious? A cutout with a piece of pipe on top and a dowel for a ramrod? What you're suggesting sells our young men and women way, way, short. You're giving them nothing that would indicate that you have any actual respect for their intellect or judgment. They may walk away with joke material for the net day or two, but the clear message for them is that they are not capable or trustworthy enough to distinguish between recklessness and safety, between pipe and a real gun barrel, or between responsible and illegal behavior.

You own a musket legally, perhaps have a permit for it so why wouldn't you want to demonstrate responsible behavior and handling of a weapon?

Raising three teens of my own, and with many years of Boy Scout leadership under my belt, and several years of CW demonstrations to school-age kids, I have to disagree with you and say yes, kids do need to see a real weapon if it's relevant to the impression, and kids are very interested in weapons. I'm hope you are kidding when you state that the "hardtack and material culture" gets their attention just as well.

I feel it builds character to trust them with the actual history of our nation and realizing the raw fact of killing in war is part of that. The goal is to raise a generation that can avoid war because they understand it, they must know that weapons kill in war. Guns are not virtual weapons but real steel and wood of the kind that freed an entire race of people from bondage in this country. It's no game so don't give them toy cut-outs. There's a value to teaching history beyond go-along-to-get-along.

Without that reality, and without respect for the intellect and ability to comprehend of our older kids, we're forming young men and women that merely cower before cowards with guns on our campuses. They mostly just wait to be shot while gunmen calmly re-load, when even one student savvy to the way guns work and the value of resisting could at least have a chance formulate a better action plan than that - Waiting for a re-load to run or rush the gunman, knowing the chances for survival with a .22 caliber vs a larger caliber weapon etc. etc. There's a reason campuses are good hunting grounds for gun wackos & criminals. They know they'll not themselves be shot by an armed defender before they can maximize their spree and be written down in history.

I'm sorry, but in my opinion you do a great disservice by so readily compromising with the politically-correct administration in your district and town. Next year at least ask if you can bring a complete and authentic set of soldiering gear to a demonstration on Civil War history, and when that fails be creative and organize a field trip to a County park if you have to.

Dan Wykes

jerryeberg

03-14-2008, 05:20 PM

Ok, well does anyone have any suggestions on how I can get the guns to be allowed for our school presentation legally and safely?

michael.shafto

03-14-2008, 06:17 PM

I was at Wade House last year and the event put on a wonderful school day. The schools that participated sent out permission slips to the parents, and even went as far as inviting them along. The students were able to see our equipment, horses, and camp, and were much more involved with a Civil war era cavalry camp.

It might be easier legally and more beneficial even to have the kids come to you then to try going into the school with longarms. I am not familiar with Michigan law, but it does sound like they are pretty strict on the subject. With all of the legal and political changes that have graced the beginning of the 21st century, we need to be very careful when dealing with this sort of thing. I may be way off base, but I dont think it will take to many slips for us to be put into someone's political crosshairs.

Slickrick214

03-14-2008, 06:19 PM

Respectfully, John, are you serious? A cutout with a piece of pipe on top and a dowel for a ramrod? What you're suggesting sells our young men and women way, way, short. You're giving them nothing that would indicate that you have any actual respect for their intellect or judgment. They may walk away with joke material for the net day or two, but the clear message for them is that they are not capable or trustworthy enough to distinguish between recklessness and safety, between pipe and a real gun barrel, or between responsible and illegal behavior.

You own a musket legally, perhaps have a permit for it so why wouldn't you want to demonstrate responsible behavior and handling of a weapon?

Raising three teens of my own, and with many years of Boy Scout leadership under my belt, and several years of CW demonstrations to school-age kids, I have to disagree with you and say yes, kids do need to see a real weapon if it's relevant to the impression, and kids are very interested in weapons. I'm hope you are kidding when you state that the "hardtack and material culture" gets their attention just as well.

I feel it builds character to trust them with the actual history of our nation and realizing the raw fact of killing in war is part of that. The goal is to raise a generation that can avoid war because they understand it, they must know that weapons kill in war. Guns are not virtual weapons but real steel and wood of the kind that freed an entire race of people from bondage in this country. It's no game so don't give them toy cut-outs. There's a value to teaching history beyond go-along-to-get-along.

Without that reality, and without respect for the intellect and ability to comprehend of our older kids, we're forming young men and women that merely cower before cowards with guns on our campuses. They mostly just wait to be shot while gunmen calmly re-load, when even one student savvy to the way guns work and the value of resisting could at least have a chance formulate a better action plan than that - Waiting for a re-load to run or rush the gunman, knowing the chances for survival with a .22 caliber vs a larger caliber weapon etc. etc. There's a reason campuses are good hunting grounds for gun wackos & criminals. They know they'll not themselves be shot by an armed defender before they can maximize their spree and be written down in history.

I'm sorry, but in my opinion you do a great disservice by so readily compromising with the politically-correct administration in your district and town. Next year at least ask if you can bring a complete and authentic set of soldiering gear to a demonstration on Civil War history, and when that fails be creative and organize a field trip to a County park if you have to.

Dan Wykes

I agree 110% with everything you said.

MStuart

03-14-2008, 07:13 PM

Ok, well does anyone have any suggestions on how I can get the guns to be allowed for our school presentation legally and safely?

Jerry: Suggest you read posts 7, 9, 11, 18, 19, 33, 37, 38, 40, and 41 of this thread. Those pretty much help you with your question and don't go off into any tangents. I think you'll notice they don't give you any hard and fast answer for reason/s stated in those same posts. You have work to do.

Mark

Poor Private

03-14-2008, 10:31 PM

Jerry,
If I am not mistaken the laws governing guns on school propety changes when it involves a private school in Michigan. It has to do with the Government $$ support. If it's private, the government does not give funds for operations hence they can't or don't govern what policies the school sets other than then curiculum to meet standards. So just the principle,school board, or even owners have the say not the local authorities.
We had a couple of young guys in our unit a year or so ago that went to a private school in Grand Rapids. when they were meeting us for an event on fridays they were allowed to bring thier muskets to school as long as the lock was removed and carried seperately. They were also allowed to put on demos at the school . So your best bet is check with the school administration. If worse comes to worse make a video of what you want demo-- What kid doesn't want to watch a video? Which brings to another subject showing a reenacting video along with your presentation there are a bunch of good ones out there.

FloridaConfederate

03-14-2008, 10:31 PM

Dear Ms Crabapple,

I am in receipt of your letter sent home with Timmy about the Civil War Presentation coming to Richard Simmons Elementary and guns.

Good Lord, Moses, Mary and Diane Feinstein are you people crazy ? Do you not know what happened at Columbine ? Being a family that places more importance on an unnatural fear of inanimate objects than the personal accountability of law abiding people, we live in a gun free home. There is a sign in our yard that reads "You Are Safe Here - Gun Free Home". Timmy's Godfather and his life partner thought that one up. We wring our hands at anything which makes a loud noise, is blued or involves eating meat.

We do not let Timmy play with toy guns. When his friends play army, we insist Timmy play "Peace Corps volunteer" or draft dodger. My husband has cut all the guns off of Timmy's toy soldiers with fingernail clippers (dull ones). To prevent Timmy from gun related play while not in our presence, we have surgically sewn both of his thumbs to his respective index fingers. He can no longer make a gun shape with his hands.

Please accept this letter as my request to restrict Timmy's involvement with anything connected with guns (including but not limited to: glue, caulk and staple), knives, mean unthoughtful looks, personal accountability, negative talk about Sean Penn or tax cuts.

Enclosed please find a DVD of Susan Sarandon movies and a Rosie O' Donell coloring book (giant sized) for Timmy to do while the rest of class participates in the presentation.

I close with a suggestion that if you choose to allow a gun to be brought on campus, it is by someone professional enough to handle one, like say a DEA agent.

Shepard Sheeple
Dan Rather Says So Mess

Motown

03-15-2008, 06:14 AM

bob 125th nysvi

03-15-2008, 06:19 AM

Ok, well does anyone have any suggestions on how I can get the guns to be allowed for our school presentation legally and safely?

has been answered multiple times.

Find out what their policy is. If they don't have a restriction sit down and talk with the superintendent.

That's it.

There is no way around policy or law. You might get dispensation on policy but you are going to have to go talk turkey withthebig boy and maybe the school board.

But if the local PD says NO and is backed by law, see if you can get a 'demiled' one onto the property. Ie make the musket inoperatabel by removing the cone.

Danny

03-15-2008, 10:16 AM

Ok, well does anyone have any suggestions on how I can get the guns to be allowed for our school presentation legally and safely?

Jerry -

Have one ongoing - next month a day long living history presentation in back of the Public Library downtown on land maintained by the Park District. Our unit is Artillery, which means a cannon drill and fire, and pistols etc. if we are to do it right. We can't play cards and banjo in our camp the entire time and give a correct impression.

We were told that the official policy of the Park Department is no guns period, ever, and that we would have to show liability insurance for the unit even to be there. But from experience we've learned not to be blustered by all the officialdom / safety dept / legal dept show and to try at least one push-back.

In this case we politely explained that no, we will not provide proof of liability. As a non-profit educational resource we have individual members with standard personal coverage for themselves and their belongings or cars. We said the Library may purchase such insurance for a day and show it to the Park dept. We explained to the Library that while we were flattered by their sponsoring us (with a cash donation to cover our expenses plus our time and meals etc) for the living history we suggested they could find another type of unit (I suppose civilian reenactors or whatever, we could help with connections) and we would withdraw, thank you.

Well that, and previously offering one of the Library staff to drill on our gun, and the fact that community flyers had gone out, apparently kicked loose permissions from the Park District for us to be there, with our weapons. We wonder about the City Police dept. notification but one thing at a time.

I'll let you know how it plays out, but the point is that's the kind of game that has to be played out. After all the worst case is you can't bring your gun. It's not illegal to ask for special permissions.

Our hobby is losing ground every year in this regard, so a little push back helps the hobby generally, I feel.

- Dan Wykes

PATBUZZARD

03-15-2008, 11:20 AM

This historical demo is at a christian school, therefore there is likley a church nearby, or available, the church assuming it has property or even a parking lot would be a legal location exempt from the socialistic zero tolerance gun laws. Call me if there is anything I can do to help.

bob 125th nysvi

03-15-2008, 12:00 PM

Jerry -

Have one ongoing - next month a day long living history presentation in back of the Public Library downtown on land maintained by the Park District. Our unit is Artillery, which means a cannon drill and fire, and pistols etc. if we are to do it right. We can't play cards and banjo in our camp the entire time and give a correct impression.

We were told that the official policy of the Park Department is no guns period, ever, and that we would have to show liability insurance for the unit even to be there. But from experience we've learned not to be blustered by all the officialdom / safety dept / legal dept show and to try at least one push-back.

In this case we politely explained that no, we will not provide proof of liability. As a non-profit educational resource we have individual members with standard personal coverage for themselves and their belongings or cars. We said the Library may purchase such insurance for a day and show it to the Park dept. We explained to the Library that while we were flattered by their sponsoring us (with a cash donation to cover our expenses plus our time and meals etc) for the living history we suggested they could find another type of unit (I suppose civilian reenactors or whatever, we could help with connections) and we would withdraw, thank you.

Well that, and previously offering one of the Library staff to drill on our gun, and the fact that community flyers had gone out, apparently kicked loose permissions from the Park District for us to be there, with our weapons. We wonder about the City Police dept. notification but one thing at a time.

I'll let you know how it plays out, but the point is that's the kind of game that has to be played out. After all the worst case is you can't bring your gun. It's not illegal to ask for special permissions.

Our hobby is losing ground every year in this regard, so a little push back helps the hobby generally, I feel.

- Dan Wykes

As this is EXACTLY how we can get labeled as kooks!

Look my organization is chartered by the State University of NY.

We have liability insurance. Our charter is based on being living historians and providing education.

Yes it is a pain to not be able to bring the guns BUT it is better to give the kids something, this year and in the future, than being stupid about it this year and never getting invited back.

Believe me, start small and you'll finish up where you want to go.

'Push back' and you may be pushed out.

Play within the rules and you'll find that once you have gained ther school's trust you'll get more cooperation and latitude.

Don't cowboy, we don't need you being the next 'can you beleive these guys' thread in the Whine Cellar.

Danny

03-16-2008, 08:40 AM

...'Push back' and you may be pushed out...Don't cowboy, we don't need you being the next 'can you believe these guys'...

Bob -

Calm down. I said we push back once, politely. There's no harm in simply asking for an exception. No one is outraged, and we don't push the issue further if denied. There's no bad press or reputation problem. It's all pre-event. It's a reasonable approach. And even if it doesn't work very often it's an upright and honest attempt to improve the quality and genuine experience for the public.

On the other hand, I feel the 'go-along-to-get-along' mode is destroying our hobby rather than saving it. Recall only a few years ago this would not have even been brought up on this forum.

We don't have to build our reputation, and I trust you shouldn't either if you are a quality unit and known in the area.

And consider that since your unit has gone out of it's way to assume group liability, it has also conceded a valuable partnership. The community venue is no longer the designated buffer between your unit and "the man". In effect it's you coming in from outside the community saying "my unit wants to bring a gun here" instead of the community venue saying "we'd like to have this unit bring their gun here." As the official in charge, which would you consider more?

As far as being 'kooks', well, the popular image of reenactors is exactly that. It's already out of the bag, my friend.

- Dan Wykes

btw Our charter is also based on being living historians and providing education, and we are a registered non-profit. Let's neither of us mount a high horse on that account.

TheQM

03-16-2008, 05:20 PM

I used to do a Civil War presentation at my wife's school, which included an indoor discussion of the soldier's clothing and equipment and an outdoor firing demostration.

I got permission to be on school property with a firearm and bayonet. I also arranged to have a police officer in attendance. In Pennsylvania, the police run what they call the "DARE" anit-drug program. I just made sure my presentations took place the same day the "DARE" Officer was visiting the school. You are not likely to have much trouble with the police, if the police are already there to watch your presentation!

You can say what you want about doing a school presentation without a weapon, but you are there to there to show what it was like to be a Civil War soldier. Firearms were a big part of that experience.

TheSignalCorpsGuy

03-16-2008, 11:39 PM

Ok, I'm having a little trouble. Later in April ,my group will do a school reenactment at a private school in Southwest Michigan. We want to bring our muskets and maybe fire a few blanks for demonstration, but the city's police department says we can't bring guns of any kind onto any school's grounds. Help! How can I be able to bring muskets and fire blanks at this school presentation?

Sir,

I do 3-4 demo's in local schools per year (this year has been 5 so far).

My program is usually for middle school kids. In Virginia we have Standards of Learning. My whole presentation is geared around the school's SOL's. I cover every point of the SOL and what the 'correct' answer is.

Prior to going to ANY school - I inform the point of contact that I'm bringing two guns (a rifle and pistol) and also a sword. I also tell them that I've taken time to render the weapons un-fireable by removing all of the nipples. (I have an OLD cylender for my colt that I use just for schools and just take the nipple off my enfield). The cavalry saber I use has NEVER been sharpened.

In VIRGINIA we have to portray both sides. So I bring my son dressed as a Yankee drummer boy. The kids file into the auditorium where we are and they get louder and louder - then I say loudly PRIVATE SCHULTZ - SOUND ASSEMBLY. And he plays as LOUD as he possibly can which scares the be-geezus out of the kids and they pay attention.

Toward the end of the program - he (my son) will choose a kid from the audience that will fit into one of our uniforms. He'll take him in the back (after asking both him and his teacher), dress him in a YANKEE uniform and then he'll come up front and I'll walk him through how to load and fire the weapon using cream of wheat as powder and a 45 caliber ball as the projectile.

The bottom line is to effectively COMMUNICATE with the folks you're going to visit. Tell them what you are going to do - ask them for suggestions - and be willing to compromise somewhat.

All of the teachers know what my plan is - they KNOW that we'll pick a kid to put a uniform on - they have an outline of what we'll speak of.

All of us who do this need to think of ways to HELP the teachers teach the kids what theyre required to learn. (which is why I hit on every point of Virginia's SOL's).

Longbranch 1

03-17-2008, 01:15 AM

hiplainsyank

03-17-2008, 06:28 AM

Kevin-

He said he does not use black powder but rather Cream of Wheat in the cartridge to mimic the actual powder.

I don't think you have to worry about that one.

tompritchett

03-17-2008, 08:41 AM

Kevin-

He said he does not use black powder but rather Cream of Wheat in the cartridge to mimic the actual powder.

I would also add that according to Mr. Shultz's post, prior to coming to the school, he removes the nipple from each weapon. Given the fact that the weapon has no nipple and is being loaded with Cream of Wheat, which has a drastically diferent color than black powder, it would likely require a miracle not a just a cascade of errors for a projectile to get fired from one of these weapons.

Longbranch 1

03-17-2008, 10:15 AM

I am not knocking the overall presentation of Mr. Shultz.

I am aware that it would take a series of unique events to occurr for there to be a problem.
I only propose that the chance of a problem occurring would be reduced by appproximately 1/3 .
To the extent of my knowledge, loading a .45 cal round ball into almost any issued long arm of the period is just plain wrong anyway.

So the historical point of that is ???

So, why not eliminate at least that area of risk?

A lucky survivor of " No, It's not loaded "
Your Servant,
Kevin Ellis,
26th NC

cavsgt

03-17-2008, 11:41 AM

No powder, no nipple, no cap= no risk

jerryeberg

03-17-2008, 11:49 AM

No powder, no nipple, no cap= no risk

Exactly. I recently spoke to Will Eichler, one of the most experienced reenactors in Michigan. He says that when firing weapons at school presentation, the students forget everything else that we've taught them, which makes perfect sense. Thanks to all who are helping.

FloridaConfederate

03-17-2008, 11:50 AM

Poor Private

03-17-2008, 01:20 PM

Saying NIPPLE is much more sexier, and everyone know what it is refering it to.
Come on do say your goin to XEROX a copy, do you say Scotch tape, do you say duct tape? humm are those are not the proper descriptions of what is being refered to but everyone knows what you are talking about. Relax and have a bit of fun. Thats what were are here for.

flattop32355

03-17-2008, 01:57 PM

For the love of General Jackson, Mother Mary, the fat CS dude that says "hey friend" in the opening scenes of Gettysburg and Janet Jackson @ Stuperbowl half time....
IT IS CONE NOT NIPPLE
CONE SAY IT.... CONE.

Parts of a cone:
1) The upper part = the nipple
2) The center part = the square
3) the lower part = the threads
4) the inner part = the channel

Janet Jackson has cones?

hanktrent

03-17-2008, 02:24 PM

I can't believe I'm posting on a discussion about gun parts. But I was taught, like Bernie says, that the nipple was one part of the cone. However, in looking at period usage, it seems that nipple and cone were often used interchangeably to refer to that general part of the gun. For example, from 1855 Hardee's, at http://www.usregulars.com/Hardeess03.html

take a cap from the pouch, place it on the nipple and press it down with the thumb; seize the small of the stock with the right hand.

But Baxter's Volunteer Manual at http://www.usregulars.com/Baxters_files/Baxter4.htm says during the same step:

take a cap from the pouch, place it firmly on the cone, pushing it down with the thumb, and seize the piece with the right hand at the small.

Showing no favoritism, this 1852 supplement to the manual of arms at http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA13&id=UHkDAAAAYAAJ says:

Arms with percussion locks require to be handled with much care, to prevent the hammer (cock) from becoming loose, by which its direct fall on the cone (nipple) would be rendered uncertain.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Fatback and Beans

03-17-2008, 05:06 PM

Some may call them Nipples. Still others may call them Cones. Me? I call them Dagmars!

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/0/02/300px-Dagmar.JPG

FloridaConfederate

03-17-2008, 09:48 PM

You guys got it then. It is in the manual so...

Nipple is perfectly acceptable and commonly used in mixed company and around children in the period.

Nipple Nipple Nipple

Say it.

I retract my previous statement. I know nothing.

Have some fun with it.

tompritchett

03-18-2008, 12:53 AM

I can't believe I'm posting on a discussion about gun parts. But I was taught, like Bernie says, that the nipple was one part of the cone. However, in looking at period usage, it seems that nipple and cone were often used interchangeably to refer to that general part of the gun. For example, from 1855 Hardee's, at http://www.usregulars.com/Hardeess03.html

But Baxter's Volunteer Manual at http://www.usregulars.com/Baxters_files/Baxter4.htm says during the same step:

Showing no favoritism, this 1852 supplement to the manual of arms at http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA13&id=UHkDAAAAYAAJ says:

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Actually Hank, FloridaConfederate is technically correct. One does not remove the nipple from a weapon but the cone. Removing the nipple by itself, would actually require that the nipple be separated from the rest of the cone, leaving the remainder of the cone still in the weapon. As for the references you cited, every one of them are referring to the nipple portion of the cone; the authors just did not feel the need to continuously write "portion of the cone". The fact that we reenactors are sloppy in our distinguishing between cone and nipple, does not invalidate FloridaConfederate's point.

TheSignalCorpsGuy

03-18-2008, 02:38 AM

Mr Shultz,
PLEASE rethink the loading portion of your demonstration!
Accidents happen. Most are cascade events.

Mistakenly take the wrong weapon, residual powder in the breech, and then you load it with a projectile.

You now have a " LIVE " weapon!

And this discussion will quickly become moot for everyone.
At the least eliminate the projectile.

This is in response to Kevin's issue I quote above.

The "CONES" (ok - I got that right now!) :-) are removed. Prior to going to the school - the weapon is thoroughly cleaned so that no residual gunpowder is left anywhere. I make up some 'cartidges' with cream of wheat and smaller balls than the barrel (so I dont have to use a worm to get them out).

There's no cones, powder and no caps brought INTO the school. Both my son and I check, recheck and then triple check that those three things are NOT in our posession when we leave home. There's no WAY a discharge can possibly happen short of the kid sneeking black powder down the barrel, putting on a "CONE" and having a percussion cap with him. Now - the kids DONT know we're going to dress one of them up. Figure the ODDS of a 13 year old in the city bringing 90 grains of powder, a percussion cap and a cone for an armi-sport enfield to school - then sneeking it all by my son's and my ever-watching eyes during the loading process. Literally one in several dozen trillion........ It's just not going to happen. (chances are MUCH better winning the megga-million lottery 5-6 times in a row)

We do two 'load' sequences.

The first is to instruct the kid - and to show the audience how it is done.

The second time my son walks him through it quietly as I talk to the audience. I make it a point to say that men had to stand shoulder to shoulder and reload in the face of enemy shot. I tell the kid loading the weapon to do it as fast as he can. I tell the audience to THINK about what made MEN stand there in the face of enemy fire for the time it took them to reload. I ask them what THEY be thinking and then ask for volunteers to share. You'd be amazed at the answers!

Is what I do 'authentic'? HECK NO!!!! "Authenticity" in firing at school is just something that we're going to have to live without doing if we are going to be accepted in the school systems today (for the most part). In the "Tidewater" area it's something I dont even want to ASK the schools for.

What I do by dressing a kid and then doing the firing and load sequence is one of the several "Attention Grabbers" that I use in my presentation. (breaking up the monotany of hearing a guy speaking). This particular one they see one of their own standing there trying to load as he's nurvous and such. It makes them think and they SHARE THEIR FEELINGS!

Needless to say it works..........

I then talk about what made men stand and fight which leads into what the war was INITIALLY about - and what it changed to BE about (especially in the north). Which leads me DIRECTLY back into talking about what the kids' are required to learn about the period by state direction.

I have received nothing but RAVE reviews on my school presentations - even compared to the 'authentics' who go in, simply show their gear, talk about it, and that kind of thing.

What I do is hit EVERYTHING on their Standards of Learning requirements and keep the kids involved in the learning by doing things throughout the presentation to get their attention and drive the points home to their heads so it'll stick.

If this austere group of fine gentlemen will '****' me for keeping kids interests, teaching them what they're required to learn, along with what some of the REAL truths were, then I stand "Damned" for all time.

I know that my great-great-grandfather, Ebinezer Bullers, 1st Sgt of the 105th Pa Volunteers would like what I'm doing. The teachers and school administration can't thank me enough, and the kids are LEARNING.

Longbranch 1

03-18-2008, 05:04 AM

Mr Shultz,

I absolutely COMMEND you in your presentation.

Particularly when done in the SAFE manner you described and then expanded on.

In my first reading of your initial post, I kind of glossed over the first paragraphs. But they seemed to me to be worth revisiting.

The purpose in my posts was, as is yours, to educate.
Particularly to emphasize all the variables which have to be addressed in order to do so safely.
Definitely not to antagonize or degrade in any way your efforts, but rather to " hard point " some of the more critical issues.

The first post in this discussion was a " How to ? " from , I presume, a relative newcomer.
That gentleman would be well advised to use your demonstration as a model.

If just one person who has an opportunity to give a LH demonstration in this manner thinks about this cone/nipple, powder, ball, discourse., and doesn't just grab "Ye Ole Musket Rifle" from the back of the closet......., it's worth it.

I know you don't represent a .45 cal ball as a correct round. I'm sure you explain the difference or note that it is for demonstration purposes. I was kind of hoping some one else would chime in on that. ( Let's see. A 5th grader ramming a .58 minnie down a .58 cal. weapon. Thats tough! Now let's get that sucker out of there. Hmmmmmmm? }

Again Sir,
No disrespect intended.
I only hoped to get a couple of points to the forefront.

I remain your most humble servant,
Kevin Ellis,
26th NC

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

03-18-2008, 06:18 AM

Hallo!

Just to tweak the discussion.... (sorry). ;)

Yes, the nipple is a part of the cone. Yes, the terms are often used in a Period context interchangeably.

When reading Period British, they use "nipple" more often. But even in Period British use, one finds references, tables, that speak to "Cones,"
"Nipple or Cone" and just "Nipple."

And in a British diagram of a cone... the American cone part labelled "nipple" appears on the British nipple diagram as.... "cone."

Well, as the British used to say...

"Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls.
It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world,
except for Lola. Lo lo lo Lola. Lo lo lo Lola."

CHS

Longbranch 1

03-18-2008, 07:23 AM

BobWerner

03-18-2008, 07:36 AM

Just to further add to what Herr Schmidt and others have stated, the solid piece that is threaded into what is referred as the cone-seat is the "cone." The different sections of the cone, from the top down, are the nipple, the square, the shoulder and the screw-thread. The interior cavity is referred to as the vent. These descriptions are taken directly from "Rules for the Management and Cleaning of the Rifle Musket, Model 1855, For the Use of Soldiers" by E.S. Allin, Master Armorer, current reprints of which are readily availiable through various sutlers and purveyors of period printed materials. Not to be picky, but the correct nomenclature does matter.
Just my two cents worth.
Respectfully,

Tarheel57

03-20-2008, 05:38 AM

In some municipalities, it is the police's business. It is a major breech of courtesy to not notify law enforcement if you are firing weapons, blanks or otherwise. In a perfect world, there would be no problem bringing in muskets, cannons, etc. In most areas in Florida where I am from, there is an assigned school resource officer or deputy whose job it is to keep order in and weapons out of school. Regardless of local laws where some folks are, a bayonet, musket, pocket knife, etc IS a weapon. I don't have to preach to the choir about the safety records at reenactments, but in this day and age, each school has a right to pick and choose what occurs in their school. That being said, I've done over 100 school presentations over the last 10 years in four counties in Florida and I would say that its about 60/40 as to carrying weapons. Yes, the little boys love the "guns", as well as many teachers, but quite frankly, living history is much more than the weapons of the era. I know, they are a big part of war, but there is a much more important historical lesson to these kids, and I've found that when presented enthusiastically, the material culture and camplife are areas of fascination as well. I think one is a poor living historian if he must rely on weaponry as a crutch for a quality presentation.

Here in Broward County, FL a friend of mine is a teacher who does CW Living History demos in area schools. Interestingly enough, he has never had any problems bringing his musket on campus. However, school officials were adamant that he could not bring the bayonet.
In county libraries, however, adminstrators flip out over the mere suggestion of a musket, even non-functional replicas. Even stage combat swords (wide unsharpened blades, no point) are not allowed.