Shoulder holster, correct or not ?

[Richard Schimenti]

My question is this, would a civilian of the Civil War time period carried a shoulder holster to carry a small frame revolver in, such as the 1849 Colt pocket revolver ?

If they would have used one, could you help me locate a good reproduction of one.

[Frenchie]

Richard, the first shoulder holsters mentioned in Packing Iron: Gun Leather of the Frontier West by Richard C. Rattenbury are from the 1880's. I recommend a "private purchase" or "pocket pistol" holster from Dell's Leather Works, or carrying it in a coat pocket.

[reb64]

Shoulder holsters were made well prior to the civl wa. they are not in abundance, used by provosts gamblers, guerillas etc.

[FloridaConfederate]

Hip Pocket and Shoulder Holsters from the History of Gun Leather, Cochise Gun Leather

By the mid to late 1800's many of the towns of the west had been reached by "civilization" and the genteel townfolk did not want those entering their towns "packing iron". Many of towns passed ordinances or "laws" against carrying a firearm within city limits. The Hip Pocket Holster and Shoulder Holster became quite popular, as they were either concealed in your pocket or coat/duster. The Hip Pocket Holster was made to carry either a small derringer or a "suicide special" which was a small, inexpensive revolver. The holster had two functions, the first being concealment of the weapon and the second kept in a readily available yet securely safe position. It conformed to most pockets and some had loops to carry extra bullets which kept them readily available for re-loading. The Hip Pocket Holster continued it's evolution through the early 1900's and was used more in the east than the west although it was extremely popular with western bankers and businessmen. The holster seems to have been created in the east and then moved on into the western territories and states.

Designed for large-caliber handguns the Shoulder Holster was easily concealed beneath a coat or duster. It seems to have come out of the western frontier and this "concealed weapons" holster was not only popular but extremely practical. Law enforcement and gunfighters alike used these holsters. The rig gave the wearer an extra gun when it was needed and the icing on the cake was that you still had a gun on your person after you had handed in your regular gun and gun belt to the local authorities to come into town. The first "true" design of the Shoulder Holster appeared around the late 1870's. This holster allowed the pistol to "hang" under the arm in a vertical position when it was worn with an oval shaped shoulder loop. There were three types of this holster. The "Texas" pattern was the first and most common of the holsters and was made popular by a Texas shooter named Ben Thompson. The holster was well used by many but if speed was required this rig was not what you wanted. It was hard to draw a large pistol from the holster as the pistol had to lift several inches "up" before it could clear leather. In the late 1890's the "Skeleton" or "Clip Spring" showed up on the northern plains and several improvements were made to the fast draw. The holster had a full back and a small boot cap where the muzzle rested and a leather-covered metal clip or a piece of riveted rawhide rested on the upper cylinder to contain the gun instead of a full leather pouch. This design enabled the the gun to be pulled out in one quick side motion.....but the drawback to this design was that it cost twice as much as a "Texas" pattern holster and so it became a specialty item due to it's cost. In the early 1900's a new design named the Half Breed came out. This design used the best of both of the older style holsters. The design used a spring clip retainer and semi-closed toe in combination with a full leather pouch that was left open along the main front seam for an easy draw..

[Frenchie]

Shoulder holsters were made well prior to the civil war. they are not in abundance, used by provosts gamblers, guerrillas etc.

Cite documentation, please.

[bbcwreenactor]

I recently found out that pincortin(SP) and his men all carried pin fire revolvers in the inside of there jackets. If you look at the photo of abe lincoln at antietam with pincortin in the picture he is reaching in his coat. Not because its what napoleon did but because he always had his hand on his pistol because he was lincoln person body guard. So i dont know if this helped at all, Or even how his pistol was held in there if it was just hidden in his jacket,or by a pocket or a holster.



Brad

[Frenchie]

http://www.old-picture.com/defining-moments/pictures/Abraham-Lincoln-Antietam-Battlefield.jpg

Allan Pinkerton (founder of the Pinkerton Detective Agency), President Abraham Lincoln, and General John A. McClernand at Antietam. It was common for a man to pose with a hand inside his coat when having his image struck. Assuming he had a pistol concealed under his coat and kept his hand on it for instant use is quite a stretch; intimating that it was in a shoulder holster that scholars of the period have said didn't yet exist in any significant numbers, if they existed at all, is IMO reaching much too far. By the way, concealing a handgun is pointless if you keep your hand on it and advertise that you are carrying a concealed handgun, isn't it?

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

I recently found out that pincortin(SP) and his men all carried pin fire revolvers in the inside of there jackets. If you look at the photo of abe lincoln at antietam with pincortin in the picture he is reaching in his coat. Not because its what napoleon did but because he always had his hand on his pistol because he was lincoln person body guard. So i dont know if this helped at all, Or even how his pistol was held in there if it was just hidden in his jacket,or by a pocket or a holster.



Brad
That's pretty out there as a speculation. That style of pose for portraits and images was pretty common for military officers and citizen gentlemen, and does indeed go back to Napoleon. I'm fairly certain Napoleon wasn't wearing a concealed flintlock pistol inside his blouse.

[mravery]

Hi guys

I gonna get this thread started up again and add/ask a few more questions.

As an officer (Federal) they could purchase any side arm they wished to carry. If a small caliber pistol (i.e. the colt police) was worn, how would it have been carried. Seems (IMO) too small to wear on the hip..(I'm sure I'm wrong though :lol: )... So... if there were no shoulder holsters around?????

Also.. does anyone have any pictures of pistols being worn in uncommon ways? If so, I would love to see them.

Cheers
Mark

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

On of the oddities of the pre-metalic cartridge era, Civil War or Ante-Bellum.. was the Spies suspender holsters with a single shot percussion "pocket" pistol on the front of each brace.

I am not so sure pocket or police type revolvers are too small to be worn on the hip or waistbelt.

In the late 1870's on, shoulder holsters made a small splash among criminals, lawmen, and gamblers not for derringers and "hide aways," but rather for "regular" sized revolvers that sitting in a chair or on a horse made harder to "clear leather." Surviving shoulder holsters of that era are inevitably "always" for large frame revolvers.

And, even the pocket or police revolvers were not necessary that "small."
For example, the Colt Model 1862 Pocket/Police was offered with 4 1/2, 5 1/2, and even a 6 1/2 barrel length. The M1849 came in 3, 4, 5, and 6 inch barrels.

My wife's g-g-uncle, a teamster in the 63rd OVI, carried a Colt M1849 in a "scaled down" "flap" holster.

If anyone has documentation for shoulder holsters other than Josey Wales and Doc Holiday of movie fame, please post them so we can carry our collective knowledge forward.

CHS

[Phil]

"If they'd a had it, they'd a used it!"

There, now this thread has everything.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"There, now this thread has everything."

IMHO...

No it doesn't.

It is missing: "Absence of proof is not proof of absence."

;) :)

CHS

[Blair]

Most people have a clear picture in their minds what the differences are between a "Pocket Knife" and a "Belt Knife". Descriptions based on the size of the knife and how they might best be carried due to their size.
I don't understand what is so confusing about the words "Pocket Pistol"?
The word "Pocket" is a perfect description of not only the smaller size of the firearm but suggest the place in which to carry it.
Just a thought on my part.
Blair Taylor

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Indeed.

(I have always liked the term/concept of "horse" pistols as well.)

Unrelated, for several years as an officer I carried a holstered .36 Colt M1862 Pocket/Police revolver with a 3 1/2 inch barrel on my swordbelt. It was easier than trying to find or access a pocket. :)

Although not of the Period, on a cold October 26, 1881, Wyatt Earp went to the O.K. Corral with his large Colt "Peacemaker" (or some say Smith & Wesson) in his coat pocket.

CHS

[Poor Private]

I can see why someone is asking about a shoulder holster especially with the pocket pistols. Since we are supposed to be so safety conscious with handling weapons, I wouldn't want a loaded pistol in my coat pocket banging into everything. OPPss sorry lady I set your corset on fire--my bad- the gun fired accidently, when I bumped into that thingamajig. Also it's out of the way when you go to them Ice cream socials, or snuggling on that park bench. Or lets tuck it into our waist bands-- NO THANK YOU I still use my equipment.
Now for a question where can you find a flapped holsters for pocket pistols-- what vendors carry them, and their cost? Which leads to the next question who makes shoulder holsters for BP pistols?
At times I want to carry one also especially for that Remy .31 pocket pistol.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

While not all "brands" had them, the Colt M1862 Pocket/Police had five safety "pins" between the cones that engaged the nose of the hammer so that one did not have have an unloaded chamber or an uncapped cone to not risk the hammer resting on a live chamber with the remote risk of it being hit hard enough to detonate the cap, or be snagged by something and pulled back and falling before engaging a notch.

I am out of the loop on who makes military style flap hoslters for pocket or vest pistols. And the same for shoulder holsters.
Mine was a special order years ago from a vendor no longer around.

One possibility is some of the CAS/SASS vendors, but then that is special-order or custom work which will be pricier than say Pakistani or Indian import holsters or the leatherwork of mainline makers usually making just the standard Army and Navy belt holsters.
(In 2000 or 2001 I had a left-handed shoulder holster made for a Colt M1877 Lightning unmodernizing the look of Val Kilmer's
Doc Holliday's in "Tombstone.")

When in CW civilian mode, and needing something for louts, naives, ruffians, thieves, and highwaymen, I have a short barrelled Colt M1855 (sidehammer) Pocket Revolver I carry in ... my coat pocket.

CHS

[Blair]

Cris,

Ever hear of tail pockets? You know those things in the coat tails of Militay or Civilian frock coat? Kind of keeps thing out of the way of all those other thing-a-ma-jigs.
I kind of like my women wild. But, and this is just a suggestion on my part, you might want to rethink the type of ladies you like to socialize with. Those ladies (in my experiance) I have felt a need to be heeled (armed) around were usually far better armed than I could hope to be. And the weapon (s) were far better concealed too.

If you are planning to carry a bp firearm out in the real would why worry about a period holster of any type or size?
Just find something Modern that will work for you and you want it for?
Blair Taylor

[Poor Private]

Blair,
Not everyone in thier personna can afford a fancy frock coat. Fancy civilians are over represented at even mainstream events.
As a dock yard worker My pocket is filled with my cush, the other has my coin purse so I need another place to hide my pistol( this is only a hypothetical example).
In another forum I have asked the same question that started this thread- it's interesting that there are people who will give documentation for use of holsters and even a couple of shoulder rigs, and suspender rigs.

[MickCole]

Holsters for pocket pistols were not issue items, but I have seen private purchase examples in museums. As long as you use period construction methods, you should be able to make one yourself.
I made one based on the examples I have seen in museums, and was fairly pleased with the results.
YMMV,
Mick Cole

[Blair]

Cris,

You are correct, not everyone can afford a frock coat, then or now.
I don't think everyone that can afford a frock coat should be armed with a pocket pistol either, but that is just me.
Your hypothetical dock worker for example, should be able to afford a civilian sack coat. That would give him at least one extra pocket to stow his hide-away. Providing he could afford that too.

Mick,

You bring up some very good points regarding Museum owned holsters/scabbards for pocket pistols. The problem with these is knowing or documenting their construction to the period in question.
For example the Colt '49 pocket pistols were made until about 1870. At which time many were converted to cartridge and production continued until about 1880.
There are quite a few pocket revolver scabbards that survive form this later time period because we can document the makers by name and when they started their business.
Blair Taylor

[Phil]

I would bet that there were more dockworkers that owned frocks than shoulder holsters.

I certainly wouldn't try to say with absolute certainty that there was no such thing as a shoulder holster before 1865, but it is apparent that if they were around, they weren't used much.