View Full Version : September Dawn (2007)

02-06-2008, 06:41 AM
Not good. Don't bring this movie or the incident up to the nice Mormon missionaries.


September Dawn (2007)

"More than 100 years before Sept. 11, 2001, another act of religious fanaticism claimed the lives of upwards of 120 men, women and children when a band of Mormon militiamen and Paiute Indians slaughtered a wagon train of westward-bound settlers. This tragic tale chronicles those events, juxtaposing a fictional love story and a fact-based account of the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre. Terence Stamp, Jon Voight, Lolita Davidovich and Dean Cain star."

02-06-2008, 08:58 AM
Well, that's mostly because missionaries aren't out to discuss movies, but religious doctrine. :)

I've not yet seen the movie, myself, though I plan to, just for the train-wreck fascination with how they can possible create a lovestory out of a massacre. Seriously. Weird Concept.

There was a very good article on Mountain Meadows about this time last year; I'll see if I can still find the link. It's something that made the papers with lots of rumor attached, so fits well into the pop culture of the pre-war years.

02-06-2008, 12:06 PM
"..religious doctrine.."

Dear Elizabeth, The two nice Morman ladies I talked to had a Book of Morman in one hand and fresh tomatoes in the other.

I liked the Mormons I've met. They give you a free book, let you use their archives, and don't ask for money.

Considering the stuff the LDS folks put up with before going to Utah, the massacre isn't much of a surprise.

I can't explain my former state Governor.

I would like to see the link to the article!

02-06-2008, 01:28 PM
While massacres are, generally speaking, not nice things, I have to admit a bit of grudging respect for the perpetrators. I am an Episcopalian, and we're just a bunch of wimps. Were we driven to Utah and pestered by wagon trains of outsiders, we would just gesture at them with polo mallets and shrimp forks and question their educational background, shouting "Not our sort! Not our sort!"

02-06-2008, 01:44 PM
I've not yet seen the movie, myself, though I plan to, just for the train-wreck fascination with how they can possible create a love story out of a massacre. Seriously. Weird Concept.

Lots of love stories are set against great disasters, tragedies, wars, etc. There are two love stories in Kantor's novel Andersonville, for just one example.

02-06-2008, 01:59 PM
"...create a lovestory out of a massacre.."

A little like Les Miserables, an orphan is involved.

Doug Cooper
02-06-2008, 03:42 PM
This was one of the most cowardly and despicable acts ever conducted on this continent...but it shows what continued persecution and suspicion can do to drive out human decency and values if you sucumb to it. The wagon train was not nor ever was hostile and the murderers knew exactly what they were doing, even down to dressing like Indians to deflect any blame on the Mormons. When the brave emigrants gave as good as they got, the Mormons resorted to threachery and then massacred men, women and children except for the 17 youngest children (oldest spared was 6 years 11 months) who were judged too young to tell what happened...and of course blamed the whole thing on the Paiutes as they had planned all along. They even decided not to bury anyone as it would indicate other than Native Americans were involved.

William Bishop, the attorney for John D Lee, the leader and only man convicted for his role in the massacre (executed) said in 1877:

"The Mountain Meadows Massacre stands without a parallel amongst the crimes that stain the pages of American history. It was a crime committed without cause or justification of any kind to relieve it of its fearful character... When nearly exhausted from fatigue and thirst, [the men of the caravan] were approached by white men, with a flag of truce, and induced to surrender their arms, under the most solemn promises of protection. They were then murdered in cold blood." William Bishop, Attorney to John D. Lee.

Lee himself was completely unrepentent of his role and maintained he was sacrificed by the Church. http://asms.k12.ar.us/armem/brondel/index.htm

All evidence so far shows that Brigham Young or any official in The LDS Church did not actually order the act, though several of Young's sermons spoke of exacting vengeance on "Americans" who might follow them out to Utah. The church has been stand up in admitting the role played by members once they could no longer deny the massacre after 1872. Frankly, with the all the hoopla around Mitt Romney and the long abandoned less than flattering aspects of the LDS Church, I am surprised the massacre has not become a hot topic.

A very sad place to visit.

02-06-2008, 03:51 PM
Frankly, with the all the hoopla around Mitt Romney and the long abandoned less than flattering aspects of the LDS Church, I am surprised the massacre has not become a hot topic.

Frankly, I can not think of any organized religion that does not have blood on its hands somewhere in the past. As Christ said, "He who is without sin, cast the first stone".

02-06-2008, 10:27 PM
need info anyone whom was extra's in movie Love And War my son and I came down with Charlie Crenchaw from s.c. with his cannon my question is for anyone that might have taken picthers of the little rebel Manolito Fricks he was my son he was killed in 1989 and we would love to have some of him that someone could share thank you very much his mom and me

02-07-2008, 05:29 AM

02-07-2008, 01:10 PM
Scott--finally found it!


It's an article that was published in the church magazine this past September; there are a lot of modern LDS people who have not heard of Mountain Meadows, and there was some controversy over the magazine publishing an article with the known information. Having read previous books and articles on the topic that did *not* stick to fact (on both sides of the case), this is one of the most balanced presentations of the timeline and information that I've seen so far.

The timeline of events, particularly with the Federal occupation of Utah in 1857-58, is important "current news" for people back in the States. Mid-century pop-culture, if you will. Sensational tabloid stuff, at the very least.

(We usually get male missionaries in our area... they don't bring food, they arrive hungry. :) )

02-07-2008, 02:07 PM
"...they don't bring food, they arrive hungry."

Oops. I should have said that it was summer in Sayreville, NJ (The Garden State) and nice folks had given these two ladies the tomatoes.

Thanks for the link.

I can't see a reenactment of this event happening soon.