Will this NY law stop reenacting there?

[indguard]

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--antiqueguns-regul0201feb01,0,6750360.story


Museums, re-enactors worry over plan to regulate antique firearms

SYRACUSE, N.Y. - A New York City lawmaker's plan to regulate antique firearms like other weapons could have severe economic repercussions for museums and historical societies around the state and prevent hundreds of living history events and re-enactments staged every year.

If passed in its current form, the proposal by Democratic Assemblyman Michael Gianaris of Queens would make the state the first in the country to require owners of antique guns, black powder weapons and muzzleloading firearms to go through a background check and purchase a license, said Ralph Walker, a legislative specialist with the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association.

"There is great opposition to the bill in its current form because it doesn't recognize the circumstances of museums and re-enactment groups who own and use these firearms for educational purposes," said Anne Ackerson, director of the Museum Association of New York, which represents 260 museums and heritage organizations across New York.

Presently, antique firearms are exempt from regulation under New York law. Gianaris' plan would regulate them like handguns without exemptions for historic sites, museums, living history events, reenactments, educational programs or purposes, or interpretative events.

Handgun laws in New York can vary from county to county, but generally they require a person to supply detailed personal information, a photograph and fingerprints that are then run through a federal background check. Handgun licenses typically cost $10 or less, although in New York City and Nassau County they cost $50. It can take up to six months to obtain a handgun license.

"The cost of a license is nominal, but for museums and local historical societies that have large collections, those costs can quickly add up," Ackerson said. "And there are hundreds of small community historical societies with collections and for many the cost could be quite burdensome."

Ackerson feared such requirements could force some institutions to break up their collections, causing catastrophic damage to the history and heritage of the state. Others, often operating on constrained budgets, would have to spend scarce funds licensing their collections.

Requiring re-enactors to obtain gun licenses would have a devastating impact, said Barbara O'Keefe, president of The Fort La Presentation Association in Ogdensburg. Fort LaPresentation attracts more than 200 living historians and thousands of visitors for its annual Founders Day in July, a weekend event that generates about $250,000 in economic activity for the community, she said. The fort also hosts several other living history events during the year.

"If this bill were to become law, it would be impossible for us to continue our events," O'Keefe said, adding that discontinuation of re-enactments would also jeopardize the association's finances and plans to improve and further develop its historic site.

"This is poorly considered," said Doug Cubbison, a longtime re-enactor who is the command historian for the Army's 10th Mountain Division at Fort Drum.

New York has a rich history running from pre-colonial times through the War of 1812, Cubbison said. There are hundreds of re-enactments and living history events like Fort LaPresentation that would be threatened, he said.

"Many upstate communities depend upon heritage tourism as a major economic contributor. This bill would be a terrible economic loss to them ... and would be a disgrace to New York state's proud history and heritage," he said.

Cubbison also questioned how much protection it would really afford the public, noting that black powder and muzzleloading firearms have limited range, limited penetrating capability, are relatively inaccurate and very slow firing. Many antique firearms are either too frail or too valuable to fire, he added.

"There have been more people killed with baseball bats than with muzzle loaders," agreed the NMLRA's Walker. "Are they going to make people go through a background check, register and get licensed to buy a baseball bat?"

Gianaris said after hearing the concerns of museum officials and re-enactors he expected to amend his proposal to remove the licensing requirements or make registration less onerous.

"It was not our intent to harm these groups," said Gianaris. "The idea was we wanted to make sure these weapons _ because they can be used to inflict harm _ at least have a waiting period and background check associated with them. That still ensures that people with mental illness or criminal records don't have access to these weapons."

The lawmaker said he determined such guns needed regulating following two incidents last year.

One incident involved a student at St. John's University with a history of psychological illness who was apprehended on campus while in possession of a loaded black powder rifle. In the second incident, a convicted felon shot and wounded a New York state trooper with a black powder rifle.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Jump-starting the discussion:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15038

CHS

[7thNJcoA]

I have read the proposed bill. You can still have your reenactments in NY. All that is happening if passed is you will be required to register your weapon with the State Police through your municipality. There is nothing in there about banning anything or what have you. It is just saying to register it! I live in NJ and registerd my muskets. Read the proposal and you will see it isnt that bad [deletion - THP] It sucks yes! but I can tell you crimes have been commited with pre 1898 firearms mostly muzzle loader pistols.

[Frank]

I Read the proposal and you will see it isnt that bad its going to get worse it BARRACK OSAMA OR HILLARY get elected! SAND BY FOR THAT!
"Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?" Jeremiah 32:27
God can do ANYTHING!! He has proved that many times to me in the past year.

~ Tiffany

[tompritchett]

If you want to make political statements, do that in the Whine Cellar not here.

[CameronsHighlander]

I'm a NYer and have been begging my Senator (should it get this far) and Assemblyperson to vote against this bill. Why does it seem like to Focus of this bill is on Reenactors and Historic site and weapons that after 1 shot potentally will take 20 seconds to reload. Im no genius but If Im going to rob a bank or a person Im going to use something a little less problematic and capable of doing more harm, which are easier to obtain at any Walmart then an 1861 Springfield or 1776 Brown Bess (Both I own) that you need to allow 6 - 8 weeks for shipping

My favorite statement in the article is "There have been more people killed with baseball bats than with muzzle loaders," agreed the NMLRA's Walker. "Are they going to make people go through a background check, register and get licensed to buy a baseball bat?"


If you live in New York and this law would be an issue write to your assembly person or state senator to vote against this law. This law does Violate the Second Amendment of the US Constitution. The NRA should also be contacted.

[FloridaConfederate]

This law does Violate the Second Amendment of the US Constitution.

Check up on your constitutional law.

The Constitution sets lmits of congressional power.

[bob 125th nysvi]

my the amount of mis-information out there is enormous (as usual).

The proposed NYS law would require new buyers of .50+ BP weapons to go through the same background checks as modern long arm buyers.

There is no requirement to "register" your weapon with the local or State Police (no such requirement exists now for modern long arms).

There is no permit needed.

It only affects NYS residents who try to purchase a new BP long arm from a NYS dealer.

So NO it doesn't affect reenactments.

It doesn't effect current owners of BP weapons.

And NO it doesn't violate the 2nd Amendment as determined by Case Law. It has long been the position of both Federal and State courts that States have the right to set limitations above the base Federal firearms law. As an example NYS LEGALLY UNDER THE CONSITUTION AS DETERMINED BY COURTS (yes I intended to yell there) already prevents you from owning a machine gun, a fully automatic rifle and a modern pistol without a permit.

And it DOESN'T affect out of state residents attending reenactments.

[CameronsHighlander]

I misunderstood the law. This law is still going to eventually lead to total and absolut gun control. What annoys me is that I can go out in the streets of the same district as this assemblyman and buy an Uzi far more easily then any Blackpowder or Muzzleloader firearm.

I retract the 2nd Amendment statement.

If you live in NY and would like to know how to contact you Assembly Member PM me and Ill send you a link (I will not pubically post it so that Michael Gianaris doesn't get a ton of hate mail.

[MBond057]

Ernest,

He is a public official. His email is not top secret. He needs to get some "wake up emails" anyway. If this legislation passes it could cause a fire across the nation so why not try and stomp it out before we need to call in a 3rd alarm?

Assemblymember
Michael N. Gianaris
36th Assembly District
gianarm@ assembly.state.ny.

[Poor Private]

I am glad I Live In Michigan..... We just went the other way in 04 unlicensed and unregistered BP weapons. To match with the current federal Law.

[CameronsHighlander]

I'm not afraid of what Rational people will say, it's the irrational people who make stupid threats.

[Bummer]

Something I have always wondered; why don't these people outlaw CRIME instead of always zeroing on the various tools? They restrict and further restrict guns or what have you...but go ever lighter on the criminals who are the problem. I truly believe you most likely get less trouble from killing or seriously injuring someone with a baseball bat than you would by just carrying an unlicensed or unregistered gun doing nothing at all.

SW~

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Michigan?

Better leave that Civil War side knife or "Bowie" knife at home as transporting it in your vehicle to a reenactment may...

750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.

Sec. 227.

(1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.


;) :) :)

CHS

[unclefrank]

The state gun and weapon laws here may not be perfect, but they have improved alot over the last decade. We now have "shall issue" CCW, and much more liberal lawful carry of firearms properly secured in the truck or rear of vehicle. We also don't have the silly long gun registration statutes that our friends on the east coast have to put up with. The knife law is a little stupid, but as long as only one side is sharpened, you are OK.

[cjdaley]

It only affects NYS residents who try to purchase a new BP long arm from a NYS dealer.

Once again, this should really help out the small business man who's trying to make a living. I'm really sick of politicians making laws that damage entrepreneurship. For once, I'd like to see a law passed that makes a politician think first.

[wilber6150]

2. THE PROVISIONS OF SUBDIVISION ONE OF THIS SECTION SHALL NOT APPLY TO ANY RETAIL SALE TO:
(A) A MUSEUM OR HISTORICAL SOCIETY THAT IS INCORPORATED FOR THE
PROMOTION OF ART, EDUCATION, HISTORY OR SCIENCE OR TO ANY PERSON ACTING ON BEHALF OF SUCH A MUSEUM OR HISTORICAL SOCIETY;
(B) A HISTORIC SITE OR TO ANY PERSON ACTING ON BEHALF OF A HISTORIC SITE;
(C) AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF A BONA FIDE GROUP OR ASSOCIATION ENGAGED IN THE REENACTMENT OF HISTORIC EVENTS OR MILITARY BATTLES OR CONFLICTS; OR (D) AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF A BONA FIDE GROUP OR ASSOCIATION ENGAGED IN CONDUCTING LIVING HISTORY EVENTS, EDUCATIONAL EVENTS OR INTERPRETIVE EVENTS

It looks like they made provisions in this bill for reenactors and historical sites..So I don't see how this would have much effect on events in New York, especially for those who already have their weapons..


http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A09543&sh=t

[IsleGuy57]

Ummmmmm, outlaw crime???? It's already outside the law, that's why it's a crime.

[CameronsHighlander]

This law makes very little sence for one thing there are very few Firearms dealers in NYS that sell Matchlock, Flintlocks, or Percussions and I don't know any retailer that sells the type of cartridges or projectiles that are used with the above mentioned in NYS (this includes Cabellas)

And exactly how does one prove they are in these

(A) A MUSEUM OR HISTORICAL SOCIETY THAT IS INCORPORATED FOR THE PROMOTION OF ART, EDUCATION, HISTORY OR SCIENCE OR TO ANY PERSON ACTINGON BEHALF OF SUCH A MUSEUM OR HISTORICAL SOCIETY;

I work for a Historic site

(B) A HISTORIC SITE OR TO ANY PERSON ACTING ON BEHALF OF A HISTORIC SITE;

I work for a Historic site

(C) AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF A BONA FIDE GROUP OR ASSOCIATION ENGAGED IN THE REENACTMENT OF HISTORIC EVENTS OR MILITARY BATTLES OR CONFLICTS; OR

does this mean A State reconized group

(D) AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF A BONA FIDE GROUP OR ASSOCIATION ENGAGED IN CONDUCTING LIVING HISTORY EVENTS, EDUCATIONAL EVENTS OR INTERPRETIVE EVENTS.

does this mean A State reconized group

welcome to the Dumb laws or Dumb catagory

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"2:27 PM EST, February 14, 2008
ALBANY, N.Y. - A New York lawmaker is dropping a plan that would have required museums, historical societies and living history re-enactors to obtain licenses to own antique guns and muzzleloading weapons.

Democratic Assemblyman Michael Gianaris of Queens says he decided to drop the licensing provision after hearing concerns from museums and re-enactment groups that such a requirement could have crippling economic consequences.

Gianaris' new plan still requires purchasers of antique firearms to undergo a background check the same as they would for handguns. But his new proposal includes an exemption for museums, historical societies, historic sites, and groups conducting re-enactment, living history, educational or interpretive events."

CHS

[CameronsHighlander]

I have to say this aside from collectors who besides Reenactors and Museums are going to purchase these firearms?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

There are numbers of folks who use muzzleloading rifles for modern dressed primitive hunting seasons, who do not reenact or do anything "historical."
Plus a few rifle and pistol "plinkers."

My local blackpowder shop sells muzzleloading rifles and C & B revolvers and pistols across the counter to anyone over the age of 21 as a simple purchase.

CHS

[tompritchett]

There are numbers of folks who use muzzleloading rifles for modern dressed primitive hunting seasons, who do not reenact or do anything "historical."

I might also add that several states have muzzleloading seasons for deer and sometimes other game.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Yes, I wrote it that way as most folks I know who hunt, wear modern clothing with blaze orange requirements rather than purely 19th or 18th century clothing and gear with no orange.

Or another more "modern sub-group" that has experienced rapid growth is the modern muzzleloading "in line" rifles that enable modern lads to hunt in the "primitive" and special "muzzleloaders only" seasons.

CHS

[CameronsHighlander]

If Im going to hunt with a muzzle-loader im going more modern the say a Blunderbuss, Brown Bess, or Springfield

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Different strokes for different folks...
Some like to do things the old way or ways. Others like the convenience of muzzleloaders the look and feel like modern rifles- the latest evolution of which have electric ignition replacing percussion caps.

My two brothers-in-law, and friends, like to hunt the muzzleloader season with Civil War rifle-muskets and rifles as they like the Minie ball's loading over having to bother with patch and round ball.

CHS

[tompritchett]

My two brothers-in-law, and friends, like to hunt the muzzleloader season with Civil War rifle-muskets and rifles as they like the Minie ball's loading over having to bother with patch and round ball.

A former pard of mine talks about two brothers that use muzzleloading Whitworths to hunt Grizzlies. Needless to say they always hunt in pairs. Still, IMHO you have to admit, that takes guts.

[Poor Private]

Michigan is one of those there states that has a muzzleloading deer season, it seems that the inline(curseword) has taken over as the predominate BP rifle tho.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Now that's hunting!
Yes, if I were to hunt Grizzlies with a Whitworth, it would be only at ranges beyond 100 yards. :) :)

I have hunted Black Bear with a .52 flintlock.

CHS

[bill watson]

Well, there's primitive and then there's primitive. We almost had an atl-atl season here in Pensyltucky.

The sad truth is a couple of folks have used a cap-and-ball pistol or muzzleloader to arm themselves when their status denied them the ability to legally own any other weapon, and then they caused problems. I believe we had one woman murdered here (Pensyltucky) with a cap-and-ball pistol, and it was the weapon of choice because of the lack of any more effective legal alternative. Deliberate as all get out.

Whether that rises to the level of "problem for society" or is more like an anomaly or aberration that should not require an organized response is the key question. The principle usually put into play is that "special circumstances make bad law," but that runs up against "special circumstances will help us advance our nanny-state agenda this time." When someone's been killed and you argue "aberration," people tend to frown. I remember a municipal solicitor who argued logically and reasonably that spending a half-million dollars a year on an ambulance service was inefficient in that fewer than one life would be saved every two years compared with the alternative of running with another town's rescue services. Folks were upset, saying he shouldn't put a price on a life.

I'd say the odds would be good to just let it ride. The average urban desperado would probably shoot himself loading a cap-and-ball. Another twist on criminal Darwinism. :-)

[MBond057]

Buckstix uses a 12 Pdr Mountain Howitzer to hunt whitetail deer. Check out his website.

http://www.buckstix.com/howitzer.htm

[tompritchett]

Buckstix uses a 12 Pdr Mountain Howitzer to hunt whitetail deer. Check out his website.

I just had to check the site out because, frankly, I could not believe that someone would actually do it. I just hope that his local game wardens don't discover his site. The picture of the six hits on the carcass would make good evidence against him.

[CameronsHighlander]

I hope PETA doesn't see it. Thats sick and completely wrong using Grape shot on an animal and I don't think thats really hunting I consider that closer to murder or poaching then actual hunting, Like using a stick of TNT to fish

[Frenchie]

Always amuses me how many people actually take that large load of manure seriously.

[tompritchett]

PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals

Thats sick and completely wrong using Grape shot on an animal and I don't think thats really hunting I consider that closer to murder or poaching then actual hunting, Like using a stick of TNT to fish

I guess it depends if you are looking for the sport or the meat. :twisted: Speaking of using explosives to fish, as reported by Bill Maudlin, one set of cooks at Anzio got fairly creative in using old German anti-tank mines to keep their troops supplied with a diet of fresh seafood. Similarly, Maudlin reports that there was an apparent correlation between accidental weapons firing during cleaning and the appearance of a cow downrange of said weapons.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

I believe that was Carol Kepner, a nurse at the Norristown, Pa mental hospital killed in June 1999 by Dennis Czajkowksi, an angry, disgruntled, former employee on herion and pain-killers- using a C & B revolver.

It was, at the time, feared that the knee-jerk fall-out would put C & B revolvers into the same class as modern metallic cartridge hand-guns.

CHS