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HighPrvt
02-12-2006, 11:15 PM
Man I can't believe this :oops:



http://www.mydna.com/resources/news/news_20060212_cheney_shoots_man_hunting.html

MStuart
02-13-2006, 12:11 AM
I can.....Politicians can't talk straight. Why should we expect them to shoot straight? Never go hunting with a rich "executive" type. All they've learned about hunting comes outa their monthly subscription to Field and Stream. Wanna bet those were "farm grown" quail?

Mark

tompritchett
02-13-2006, 01:25 AM
As much as I do not like Cheny as a VP, I find little fault on his part in this. The victim happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Since the victim was still 30 yards away and approaching, I can find little fault with him also except that I would have dropped to the ground when I saw the covey flush and Cheny start to wheel. Unfortunately, sh*t happens. The stories do imply the victim was at fault for not announcing his presence earlier but, I am sorry when people are hunting they do not want others shouting (the victim was still approaching at 30 yards) and spooking the prey. THAT IS WHY HUNTERS TYPICALLY WHISPER, REPORTERS (or spin writers). If there may be any fault about not announcing the approach, it may lie with the Secret Service detail, provided that a member of the team was in the immediate presence of the VP. He would have definitely been informed that Mr.Whittington was approaching, especially if Mr. Whittington was joining the party as a hunter (i.e., was ARMED). But my take is that this just one of those Sh*t happens stories (unlike our messed up energy policies, various scandles associated with Haliburton's performance in post-war Iraq and other such issues for which the VP can be accessed full or partial blame for).

sbl
02-13-2006, 07:19 AM
Looks like I'm late on this story. It there an "Eddie Eagle" program for elders?

MDRebCAv
02-13-2006, 08:33 AM
I don't think Mark was really "ranting" but my own feelings on this are closer to Tom Pritchett's...I see it as either no fault...or ample fault on both sides...depending on your point of view.

As a hunter, though, I am always very concious of my surroundings...especially since I once heard a round "zing" past my ear!

As for whispering...yep! But I recall once while hunting with two of my uncles, I was sitting on my stand when the brush started to move. I raised my 30-30 and watched ('cause I won't shoot unless I can definitely see my target clearly) and suddenly I saw a little flash of orange. One of my uncles, who wore no more orange than a simple watch cap walked out from behind the brush smoking a cigarrette and drinking coffee from the thermos on his belt.

Seeing me he waved his hand and shouted as loudly as he could, "Hey, Dan. See any deer yet?"

"No, Bud...just one turkey, but then they're out of season."

toptimlrd
02-13-2006, 11:43 AM
I'm just glad he wasn't seriously hurt. Hunting can be dangerous even when you know what you are doing. I beleive the fault is 50 / 50 due to Mr. Cheny not confirming his target and the person shot for not being where he was supposed to be (down range). I've almost been there before on a rabbit hunting expedition many years ago. I went hunting with my father, family physician, and a few friends of theirs. The dogs had a rabbit on the run and we were moving in. I stepped out of the tree line right between our doctor and the rabbit, looked to the left, saw the muzzle my way, and kissed the ground quickly (I was 13 and was well versed enogh to know what to do if I found myself downrange at the wrong moment). He didn't shoot, the rabbit got away, and I was at fault for being downrange of another hunter. No blame was assigned, but I knew the situation. Because or doctor followed proper safety practices (confirmed target) and I did the right thing by dropping out of the direct path, it was a non-event. If either of these things had happened with Mr. Cheney then this would not have been a news story at all. My $0.02 worth.

Sgt_Pepper
02-13-2006, 12:43 PM
Pursuant to my post titled "A Reconsideration", I have deleted my own posts and those arising from it in this thread. The rules have been relaxed. Have fun, but keep it clean, and remember... Big Brother is watching.

tompritchett
02-13-2006, 02:53 PM
and remember... Big Brother is watching.

I assume that you are referring to the NSA. After all we are all a bunch of gun-toting non-conformist talking about the VP.

HighPrvt
02-13-2006, 03:16 PM
The sad part of this is that Sarah Brady, and her gang are going to take this and run with it.

" We have to stop this for the sake of the children" yadda yadda yadda.

:roll:

MDRebCAv
02-13-2006, 03:56 PM
Yeah...but they let us set up a Confederate camp...with firearms...once for Armed Forces Week...of course this was pre-911.

flattop32355
02-13-2006, 06:33 PM
I particularly enjoy the idea that the press seem not to give a rat's tee-heinie-boo about the man who got shot, but are especially ticked off by the fact that they were not immediately informed of the "event".

I'm really interested in what the politicians will have to say about it. Will they leave it alone except to express concern for those involved (as they should), or will some of them try to make political mileage out of it at the VP's expense? I await the results...

toptimlrd
02-13-2006, 08:41 PM
I'm really interested in what the politicians will have to say about it. Will they leave it alone except to express concern for those involved (as they should), or will some of them try to make political mileage out of it at the VP's expense? I await the results...[/quote]

Do you really have to ask? I heard the Brady's already made some comment about it; something to the effect of James Brady wondering if this was the reason the VP keeps inviting him on a hunting trip. You know they will call for an investigation to see if there was criminal wrongdoing and make whatever political hay they can. At least **** Cheny got the man immediate medical help which is more than I can say for a certain Massachusets Senator after a car accident some years ago.

Frenchie_2006
02-13-2006, 08:52 PM
Bernard, I don't know how much contact you've had with reporters - I have had some - but IMO they are people with few reservations about how important they think they are. Especially, I think, the White House press corps thinks they are just the cat's meow and are quite put out when things like this happen and they're not immediately informed and kept up to date. I also think they as a class are some of the most stump-ignorant bipeds on the planet. Too harsh? Maybe. Either I've had too much exposure to them or not enough :lol:

Frenchie_2006
02-13-2006, 08:59 PM
Big Brother is watching.

Ah HA! Sgt. Pepper is Robert Redford!

JBW
02-13-2006, 09:11 PM
At the risk of Big Brothers wrath, :wink: I will humbly suggest that a hunting trip for most all of our political leaders should be arranged. (With Mr. Cheney of course!) :P

tompritchett
02-14-2006, 07:11 AM
Big Brother is watching.

Ah HA! Sgt. Pepper is Robert Redford!

No we are Robert Redford running from Big Brother. Remember Redford was just trying to stay alive and find out why the rest of his office had been killed.

sbl
02-14-2006, 07:20 AM
"certain Massachusets Senator"

Bob,

The VP's case does smell of the same type of privlege and disregard of rules and laws the rest of us have to follow.

tompritchett
02-14-2006, 12:27 PM
The VP's case does smell of the same type of privlege and disregard of rules and laws the rest of us have to follow.

What do you expect. Remember this is the man who reportedly told Bush immediately after 9/11 that Bush was the most powerful man in the world and that Bush could do anything he wanted to. Based upon that logic, Cheney would be the second most powerful man in the world and only has to answer to Bush. After all who cares about the Constitution and the principle of the balance of power between the branchs of government that are the very foundations of our governments at all levels.

Now having said that, let's address the original topic - the attittude of the press. Frankly, what happened on that field is nobody's business except for the participants involved and the local authoriities that responded to the incident. It would only become the business of the "American People", and thereby the press, if some crime was committed or some injury was incurred - either of which would impact on the ability of Cheney to perform his duty as VP. Even this latest row about his being fined for failing to buy a 7 dollar game bird hunting stamp is really nobody's business. You would have thought that he had raped the Virgin Mary or worse.

8thIllinoisCav
02-14-2006, 03:27 PM
I don't think the Press Corps is concerned about not being informed themselves.
The Corpus Christi Caller-Times put it on the AP wires an hour after they got the story.
The point is, the ranch owner was told to do it.
Cheney was allowed to "postpone" his interview with the police until the next day.
I suppose he needed some time to get his details straight.
He and the whole administration have some trouble doing that.

FWL
02-14-2006, 04:24 PM
Tom with all due respect, how do you know what really happened? Through the press? The press reporting on this Administration has proven to be one of the least accurate forms of reporting especially the White House Press Corps. Mr. Cheney may be at fault yet he might not. I could care less whether the public or press corps were informed and at what time, it was a private event. Yes its legitimate fodder for jokes and late night talk shows, thats fine. But as far as using it to make political points, what losers.

Too bad the victim was not a certain fat A** senator from Massachusetts. And I can say that I'm from Mass.

Frank Lilley
"Straying from decorum in this forum"

HighPrvt
02-14-2006, 04:46 PM
Just heard that the victim is in ICU, seems one of the pellets is near his heart, and that he may have had a heart attack.

CNN had a doctor discussing the case, that wasn't even one of his doctors.
Just grabbed a local cartiologist, and gave him is 15 minutes. :roll:

tompritchett
02-14-2006, 05:04 PM
Tom with all due respect, how do you know what really happened? Through the press? The press reporting on this Administration has proven to be one of the least accurate forms of reporting especially the White House Press Corps. Mr. Cheney may be at fault yet he might not. "

Points well taken about my sources of information, especially since the report from the investigation now seems to indicate that the victim may have stepped ahead of the firing line in order to retrieve a bird. I believe the official explanation for the accident was a "hunter judgement" error. Still, the bottom line is that this was a "sh*t happens" type of accident. End of story press. Now move onto something more important like Hamas/Israel/US relations, Iran, Spector vs. administration over NSA wiretapping, increasing tensions between U.S. and Great Britian over Global Warming, etc.

toptimlrd
02-14-2006, 06:45 PM
Scott,

I really don't follow, there was no crime committed just a bone head accident on the part of both parties. The VP did not leave the man to bleed to death, there was no assault, no involuntary manslaughter since the person did not die and likely will not (regardless of what Michael Moore is trying to promote on his website), no charges pressed by the man shot, etc.

In the case of Kennedy a young woman drowned in his car while he went home, went to bed, and tried to figure out what to say about it.

From what I've been able to ascertain the only law the VP is in violation of is hunting without the proper wild bird stamp. He is paying the fine like any other citizen would have. If something comes out that the VP did break some law, he should be held to the same accountability as you or I would. It's like someone else stated here that if this was an average Joe, it would not be news, it would just be a "stuff happens" accident. No charges would be filed and that would be it.

It would seem to me that the real story here is that the press is teed off that they didn't get to see the blood and gore, televise it and photograph it before medical attention was given. After all blood and gore are better for ratings and sales than just good old fashipned facts. It seems to me the proper protocol was followed: the man received medical attention, the authorities were notified, the press got wind there might be blood in the water and like the sharks they are they went into a feeding frenzy because they were left out in the cold as they should have been.

Just my humble opinion which may or may not represent those of a sane person. ;-)

FWL
02-14-2006, 07:02 PM
Now move onto something more important like Hamas/Israel/US relations, Iran, Spector vs. administration over NSA wiretapping, increasing tensions between U.S. and Great Britian over Global Warming, etc.

I agree Tom, what scares me more than anything in years is this stuff with Iran. I really fear a new war that will make Iraq look like a skirmish and it will be set off by a nuke sponsored by Iran.

actually I have a more subtle reason for posting here in this folder I'm trying out all the features.

Frank Lilley

HighPrvt
02-14-2006, 08:56 PM
Iranian nuke, never happen, and it won't be us taking out their program. Our little Hebrew friends won't tollerate that.

Iran is the main sponsor of terrorism around the world.
Why they still exist is beyond my comprehension, I can only sumise that the world lacks the b@!!s to do what needs to be done.

tompritchett
02-14-2006, 09:33 PM
Now move onto something more important like Hamas/Israel/US relations, Iran, Spector vs. administration over NSA wiretapping, increasing tensions between U.S. and Great Britian over Global Warming, etc.

I agree Tom, what scares me more than anything in years is this stuff with Iran. I really fear a new war that will make Iraq look like a skirmish and it will be set off by a nuke sponsored by Iran.

actually I have a more subtle reason for posting here in this folder I'm trying out all the features.

Frank Lilley

The whole islamic reaction to the cartoons scares me. States like Syria and Iran as well as groups like Al Qaeda have been using this to stir up hatred towards anything Western and especially anything associated with us. As for Iran getting nuclear capabilites, it is a very real possibility and I am not sure there is anything that either we or Israel can do about it without touching off a true holy war between religions. I would rather see North Korea with Nuc''s than Iran. At least North Korea is semi-predictable and can be moderated in its actions by China, the religious leaders in Iran, and they are the true power there, anwer to no one.

flattop32355
02-14-2006, 10:35 PM
[quote="tompritchett I would rather see North Korea with Nuc''s than Iran. At least North Korea is semi-predictable and can be moderated in its actions by China, the religious leaders in Iran, and they are the true power there, anwer to no one.[/quote]

If North Korea gets too scary, and we or someone else sets them on fire, no one else in the world will give a second thought for them, other than to try scoring political points for themselves.

But if someone so much as threatens doing the same to Iran, you'd see an uprising from Morocco to Indonesia calling for a holy war against the west. Which is exactly what the Islamic fanatics are trying to do.

HighPrvt
02-14-2006, 10:38 PM
As far as our enimies are concerened we are already in a total Holy War.
We have been playing nice with them largely due to our sensibilities.
Iran getting nuclear capabilities is something we can ill afford, and we know that. That may be the line in the sand.
We take off the gloves, and it will be a very short war. They have only seen the PC version of war. We've done our best to avoid collateral damage, especially amongst the civillian population. I've read somwhere that Iran has threatened to blocade the straight of Hormuz. besides continuing with their attempt to produce nuclear weapons, that would be their downfall.


Isreal had no problems shutting down Iraq's nuclear program, why would you suspect they wouldn't do the same to Iran? Iran is clearly a bigger threat than Iraq ever was.

tompritchett
02-14-2006, 10:45 PM
As far as our enimies are concerened we are already in a total Holy War.
We have been playing nice with them largely due to our sensibilities.
Iran getting nuclear capabilities is something we can ill afford, and we know that. That may be the line in the sand.
We take off the gloves, and it will be a very short war. They have only seen the PC version of war. We've done our best to avoid collateral damage, especially amongst the civillian population. I've read somwhere that Iran has threatened to blocade the straight od Hormuz. besides continuing with their attempt to produce nuclear weapons, that would be their downfall.


Isreal had no problems shutting down Iraq's nuclear program, why would you suspect they wouldn't do the same to Iran? Iran is clearly a bigger threat than Iraq ever was.

Two points. First of all. We are not yet in anything close to a true Holy War with the Muslem world - just with a small minority of religious fanactics. It would be a whole new ball game if the rest of the Muslim world joined in. I am afraid it would make WW II look tame.

Second, Israel did not totally shut down Iraq's nuclear program but rather merely delayed it and made it go underground. I don't think that Iran would make the same mistake. Instead I suspect that their program would be much more decentralized and would use hardened locations which would be much more diffiicult to take out with a non-nuclear air-strike, if not nearly impossible.

tompritchett
02-14-2006, 10:48 PM
If North Korea gets too scary, and we or someone else sets them on fire, no one else in the world will give a second thought for them, other than to try scoring political points for themselves.

But if someone so much as threatens doing the same to Iran, you'd see an uprising from Morocco to Indonesia calling for a holy war against the west. Which is exactly what the Islamic fanatics are trying to do.

I agree on both points. China has already stepped in at least once and supposedly warned North Korea once that if they initiate a nuclear exchange that China will not come to their aid when we retaliate in kind. Also supposedly China reminded them that we are the only country that has ever actually used nuclear weapons.

HighPrvt
02-14-2006, 10:51 PM
If North Korea gets too scary, and we or someone else sets them on fire, no one else in the world will give a second thought for them, other than to try scoring political points for themselves.

But if someone so much as threatens doing the same to Iran, you'd see an uprising from Morocco to Indonesia calling for a holy war against the west. Which is exactly what the Islamic fanatics are trying to do.

North Korea only rattles the sabre when they want something.

I don't see the entire Islamic world coming to the defense of Iran, they arn't the center of islam. Saudi Arabia is. only the fundimentalists look to Iran, and they're only a small percentage. If the Saudi's back us, the rest of the islamic world will follow suit, or just shut up. the Saudi's will back us because they're just as scared of a nuclear armed Iran as we are.

Besides what could they really do anyway, besides burn flags, chant " death to everybody" and cry, and moan. Maybe it's time for another crusade!!!

I sure hope our leadership won't bow down to Iran because their scared of ticking off the rest of Islam

HighPrvt
02-14-2006, 10:56 PM
As far as our enimies are concerened we are already in a total Holy War.
We have been playing nice with them largely due to our sensibilities.
Iran getting nuclear capabilities is something we can ill afford, and we know that. That may be the line in the sand.
We take off the gloves, and it will be a very short war. They have only seen the PC version of war. We've done our best to avoid collateral damage, especially amongst the civillian population. I've read somwhere that Iran has threatened to blocade the straight od Hormuz. besides continuing with their attempt to produce nuclear weapons, that would be their downfall.


Isreal had no problems shutting down Iraq's nuclear program, why would you suspect they wouldn't do the same to Iran? Iran is clearly a bigger threat than Iraq ever was.

Two points. First of all. We are not yet in anything close to a true Holy War with the Muslem world - just with a small minority of religious fanactics. It would be a whole new ball game if the rest of the Muslim world joined in. I am afraid it would make WW II look tame.

Second, Israel did not totally shut down Iraq's nuclear program but rather merely delayed it and made it go underground. I don't think that Iran would make the same mistake. Instead I suspect that their program would be much more decentralized and would use hardened locations which would be much more diffiicult to take out with a non-nuclear air-strike, if not nearly impossible.


We are in as much of a Holy War as we'll ever see.
Fact is most muslims don't give a ****, they just want to work, eat , etc. just like everyone else.

Iraq's nuclear program never recovered.

tompritchett
02-15-2006, 06:53 AM
Iraq's nuclear program never recovered.

There are many facets to a nuclear program only one of which is the operation of a breeder reaction, which is what the Israelis destroyed. The other facets of Iraq's program (e.g., enhancement and purification procedures) were never affected by the Israeli strike except to cause Iraq to make them more difficult to find and destroy. These parts, which many consider the more technologically difficult steps, were not halted until after the end of the Desert Storm as part of Iraq's surrender to the U.S. led coalition. And if you remember, one of the reasons that we invaded Iraq was our allegation that Iraq had never fully stopped their program as part of the surrender agreement and was close to having completed their preparations again processing spent fuel rods and uranium ores to generate weapon grades material - allegations that we now know were based upon faulty interpretations of intelligence.

HighPrvt
02-15-2006, 07:27 AM
Jeez, this tit for tat BS is going nowhere.
The FACT is that the Israelis put the brakes on their nuclear program. It never recovered to the level it was at. Actually Saddam was more interested in buying a bomb, that making one.
Do you really think that Isreal won't do the same to Iran ?
That is if we don't beat them to it!!

Let the spin begin :lol:

Scooby_308
02-15-2006, 10:59 AM
Donít think that if we (the US) hit Iran there wonít be a Muslim backlash. Most ďnormalĒ Mohamed worshipping Muslims donít dislike the US and oppose violence. But they can be stoked by the hot-brands. It happens in every country and every war. The hot-brands fire up the population into a frenzy, then sit back and watch the fireworks. The whole cartoon issue is a great point. Virtually no one in the Middle East new about the cartoons until a Dutch Muslim cleric took the info to the Middle East (he was interviewed on NPR a few days ago). Thatís when the hot-brands stoked the fire. Iran even has even posted cartoons about Jews and Nazis (stirring the pot). While most Muslims are indifferent, the stuff is being stirred and Muslims are getting fired up. When you think about the powder keg in the Balkans prior to WWI and look at the Middle East now, WWIII doesnít seem too far-fetched. I actually got scared when President Bush started talking about alternative fuels in his SoU address. If we donít buy their oil it could get even worse. Stirring the pot causes unrest and drives up oil prices. The Iranians arenít stupid. But lack of dependence on their oil, they have nothing to loose.

While I agree that N Korea is a problem, they are taming down. China is even poo-pooing on them. Watch Iran and the oil prices. Are we ever going to be independent from foreign oil? Only when it dries up, but the money game has to be played.

Back to the VP., it was an accident, once again our press is making a mountain out of a mole hill. But it is an excellent distraction from the Middle East for the Bush Team.

sbl
02-15-2006, 01:25 PM
Robert,

As I'm following this continuing story, it still reminds me of Chappaquiddick.

Rich people and alchohol don't mix and the rules are for "others".

(But I'm not bitter)

MStuart
02-15-2006, 01:48 PM
Scott:

That's why the rules are made, so "the rest of us" know how to act. With penalties for not following them. Our politicians know what's best for all of us, don't they? (insert sarcasm at any point in any of this).

Mark

Who holds career politicians on the same level as pedophiles Mess

sbl
02-15-2006, 04:26 PM
Thanks Mark,

I used to work at a Yacht Club when I was a teenager.

tompritchett
02-15-2006, 07:57 PM
Reminds me of a joke my fatehr used to tell. Goes something like -

Question: Know the defintion of a career politican?

Answer: A lawyer who lacks even morals to practice law.


You get the idea.

sbl
02-16-2006, 01:33 PM
http://www.aaof.us/images/eddiekids.gif

MStuart
02-16-2006, 01:54 PM
At the risk of showing how "square" I am.....what's the deal on this "Eddie Eagle"? Up until a year ago, I didn't know what a Sponge-Bob was.

Mark

Who remembers a group Paul McCartney was with before "Wings"

Scooby_308
02-16-2006, 03:10 PM
Eddie is kind of like Smokey the Bear. Used to teach gun saftey to kids. When My kids first watched the video at the ages of 6,8,and 10. they thought it was hoaky. But they started shooting nearly three years earlier with both me and my father as saftey instructors. It is a good idea that every kid see the video though. Most kids are not familiar with firearms and need the saftey tips.

Don't mess with these boys, the are excellent shots!
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/Scooby_308/RD.jpg

sbl
02-17-2006, 03:09 PM
Fortunately..Mr. Vice President Cheney with be reenacting the flint era.


http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/08/06/20060213113709990001

(Glad to here Mr. Whittington is out of the hospital.)

MDRebCAv
02-17-2006, 03:41 PM
What groups was Paul McCartney with before "Wings?"
HHmmmmm.........

Originally that would be "The Quarrymen" somwhere around 1959...and the band members at that time were:
John Lennon
Paul McCartney
George Harrison
and......
COLIN HANTON ????????
yep. Ringo was the last modification to them and then the famous name change!

reb64
02-20-2006, 04:41 AM
It was a regrettable and maybe preventable accident. But I can't single out the vp, I've seen this happen over and over again at many events with less consequnces and press. Gettysburg, Raymond, Perryville and more. When it happens medical care should be first, prevention and and a safety refresher second. Blame and punishment only if it is merited. Intentional vs accidental shouldn't be treated the same, stupidity and carlessness should be cut off.