CW Muzzleloaders Exempt From FFL Requirements

[Shack]

I have lost my copy of the U.S.C which states that antique muzzleloaders (and reproductions thereof) are not defined as "firearms" and, since they are not "firearms", they can be shipped interstate without going through a FFL dealer. Can someone help me right quick?
Lynn Shackelford

[reb64]

you'll ind it there but whats the point? you won't need it anywhere outside of communist san francisco i imagine

[Shortround]

Hi Lynn,

Really long time no hear. Scheeze! Say "Hi" to Scott Cummings for me, remember him?

Lynn, if memory serves me right you live in Indiana. Indiana and Michigan are freewheeling states when it comes to muzzle loaders. Places like DC, California, NYC, NJ, HI, and a half dozen states make it a felony to ship weapons and NOT go through a gun dealer.

MI, OH, IN and half the southern states don't care. Chicago and other "crime free" cities don't want muzzle loaders because there apprears to be a drive by musketing problem by Amish farmers.

Tschuess!

[Shack]

Bill, there must be another "Lynn Shackelford" in the world. Actually, I know of three more. That being said, I'm from Oklahoma. I don't think we've ever had the opportunity to meet unless we might have crossed paths at one of the national events.
I'm trying to buy a rifle musket from a guy in Maine and I'm trying to convince him that neither he nor I have to have a FFL to ship or receive an "antique firearm". I thought surely that I had read the exact references on this forum but I can't find them.

[Frenchie]

Not an antique, a replica black powder muzzleloading rifle.

Neither Maine nor Oklahoma have any restriction on shipping a muzzleloader. I'd send it Priority Mail, insured, Delivery Confirmation.

What's wrong with this Maineiac that he can't find these things out for himself? You sure you want to buy something from someone who needs to be led by the hand?

[jgr1974]

I would say be sure to check your state and local laws as well. In Illinois a firearm is a firearm!!!! To legally posses one in Illinois you must have a FOID card!!!! I work for a local Sheriff's office and have for the past 13 years. I love my JOB!!! That is why I try to remain legal!!! If you are in possesion of a Black Powder weapon in this state with out proper credentials Ie FOID card or out of state identification, you are actualy breaking the law!!!! I would hate to be pulled over by a State trooper on my way home from a reenactment, and have to call my family for bail!!! My suggestion is to contact your local Sheriff or State Police headquarters for your states law on firearms. In Illinois The ISP is the issuer of the FOID card.

Silly maybe, but here is a personal example. A gentleman from out of state walked into our local courthouse. MY now boss saw the "look" on his face and immediately took action. The man had a 22 caliber automatic in his pocket. Concealled carry illegal in this state he was immediatly arrested. The arrest led to a search of his vehicle where a fully automatic AK 47 was found with over a thousand rounds of ammunition. Under the seat was a loaded brass frame colt .44 replica ready to dispatch a life if necessary. I was contacted by the Sheriff to make the weapon secure, as no one else in the department had experience with such weapon. At the time the deputy making the report was laughing at the black powder gun. After I told him it was still capable of taking someone's life with the velocity of a modern .38 special, his face became grim.

My point is this just because these weapons are used by reenacting as a "prop" and most are never fired "live". YHey are used as every day working tools that are deadly if improperly used. The Laws here in Illinois though you may not like it, is to ensure these potential life takers are not used in violence by convicted felons!!!!

The Mad MIck!!!

[Shack]

Actually, USPS, ATF, and the U.S.C all define "antique firearm" the same: "Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898)". Antiques and reproduction of antiques--muzzleloaders--are covered by the same rules.

The thing that is troubling the guy in Maine is the phrase in the USPS regs that says, "Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are acceptable for mailing." He has never sold a muzzleloader out of state before and just wants to be sure he is doing it within the law.

[Frenchie]

Actually, USPS, ATF, and the U.S.C all define "antique firearm" the same: "Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898)". Antiques and reproduction of antiques--muzzleloaders--are covered by the same rules.

I stand corrected.

The thing that is troubling the guy in Maine is the phrase in the USPS regs that says, "Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are acceptable for mailing." He has never sold a muzzleloader out of state before and just wants to be sure he is doing it within the law.

And what's troubling me is that he seems to be relying on others to make sure he's doing it legally instead of going and doing the work himself.

Whatever. Good luck!

[Southern Cal]

Places like DC, California, NYC, NJ, HI, and a half dozen states make it a felony to ship weapons and NOT go through a gun dealer.

Tschuess!

Correction:

California law is almost identical to the U.S. Code concerning muzzleloaders and antique firearms, i.e. they're NOT considered firearms and can lawfully be shipped without going through an FFL holder.

An "antique" centerfire cartridge firing handgun may have to be processed through the California Dept. of Justice by a licensed gun dealer, depending on the type. Cap and ball pistols and flintlock pistols do not.

Auf wiederlesen!

[michael.shafto]

I shipped an 1861 Springfield that I sold on this forum via UPS. I figured that was the carrier that I used when I bought it, so there should have been no issues. When I got to the UPS store and told the clerk I wanted to ship my antique muzzleloader, he looked like he was going to have me arrested. It took me over 45 minutes and a phone call to the Wisconsin State Patrol to convince the clerk of the legality of shipping the piece. Even after all of that, I had to disassemble the weapon. It was such a pain in the butt, I decided to get an FFL, which wasn't cheap or easy. I reccomend a letter fom a law encorcement center on offical letterhead stating the legality of the shipping even if state/local law says it is ok, unless arguing with an uninformed clerk and wasting the better part of an afternoon is on your list of things to do. Good luck!

Mike Shafto

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

In the triple worlds of Fed, State, and Local, IMHO it is ALWAYS good to research the applicable laws that stand to govern you the seller AND the buyer in his juridiction (or the other way around if you are buying).

Being brief and to over-generalize... the reason is, that states and cities can enact laws stricter than the Federal government.

Also, IMHO DO NOT expect the employees of shippers such as USPS, UPS, or Fed-Ex to actually know their "companies'" rules and policies!!!!!
Boards and fora hold a bunch of "problem stories" of the clerk behind the counter haivng their own agenda-driven policy or ignorance of what they should be accepting or rejecting!
Taking a copy of their rules form their web-site and/or "official company spokes-person" may save headaches and annoyances.

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS

(Plus, boards and fora sometimes offer misinformation based upon opinion... and not facts or research)
;-) :-)

[Southern Cal]

Different rules apply at a francised "UPS Store" than at a larger UPS operated Service Center. The voice of frustrating experience in dealing with box-checking-mentality-clerks says that to avoid trouble in advance, one would do well to go onto the UPS web site and study the small print concerning shipping firearms. By this means and through patient, polite education, I've provided the local UPS staff all the policy pages from their own web site about shipping firearms that these employees weren't even aware of. I have few problems now (at this particular UPS facility) when shipping firearms as well as muzzleloaders and other "irons" not legally considered as firearms. UPS has damaged too many of my shipments and has made it extremely difficult to settle claims for damage they caused. I almost always use the postal service now except where I must use UPS.

[Shortround]

The man had a 22 caliber automatic in his pocket.

I believe the man may have had a semi-automatic .22 caliber pistol in his pocket. What did he have?

The arrrest led to a search of his vehicle where a fully automatic AK 47 was found with over a thousand rounds of ammunition.

Was it actually a semi-automatic or a fully automatic AK-47? If the weapon was really a fully automatic AK-47 then why was the department of Homeland security not told? Somebody is importing illegal fully automatic AKs into the USA. Are you sure it was a fully automatic AK-47?

If the ammo was not in magazines then the AK would have been a gloried single shot weapon. Was the ammo in magazines? Are a thousand rounds of ammo evil as a collective?

Under the seat was a loaded brass frame colt .44 replica ready to dispatch a life if necessary.

Did that weapon tell you it "was ready to dispatch a life if necessary" or were you able it read its evil thoughts via a "Vulcan Mind Meld"? If you did a mind meld then there are dozens of "Star Trek" blogs you should be making posts.

I was contacted by the Sheriff to make the weapon secure, as no one else in the department had experience with such weapon.

Boy, in this era of terrorists and IEDs it's depressing to know that the local Sheriff in your town does not know how to pull off percussion caps.

At the time the deputy making the report was laughing at the black powder gun. After I told him it was still capable of taking someone's life with the velocity of a modern .38 special, his face became grim.

Or it may have been the burrito he had for lunch.

Happy New Year! Between the sub-prime mess, the new coming bird flu, your senator running for President and a half other things it's going to be a really long year.

[jthlmnn]

I believe the man may have had a semi-automatic .22 caliber pistol in his pocket. What did he have?

Was it actually a semi-automatic or a fully automatic AK-47? If the weapon was really a fully automatic AK-47 then why was the department of Homeland security not told? Somebody is importing illegal fully automatic AKs into the USA. Are you sure it was a fully automatic AK-47?

If the ammo was not in magazines then the AK would have been a gloried single shot weapon. Was the ammo in magazines? Are a thousand rounds of ammo evil as a collective?

Did that weapon tell you it "was ready to dispatch a life if necessary" or were you able it read its evil thoughts via a "Vulcan Mind Meld"? If you did a mind meld then there are dozens of "Star Trek" blogs you should be making posts.

Boy, in this era of terrorists and IEDs it's depressing to know that the local Sheriff in your town does not know how to pull off percussion caps.

Or it may have been the burrito he had for lunch.

Happy New Year! Between the sub-prime mess, the new coming bird flu, your senator running for President and a half other things it's going to be a really long year.

It took a while, but I found actual questions buried under the pile of snide heaped into the above post.
1) Were the weapons described fully-automatic or semi-automatic? (While interesting as a point of trivia, I fail to see why this is critical to the story.)

2) How was the ammo stored: in magazines or loose? (I take it that by "loose", contained in boxes is the intended meaning. Again, interesting as a point of trivia, but rather irrelevant to the import of the story. A man with an AK-47 and 1,000 rounds of ammunition in his car is a suspicious character at the minimum, and very dangerous one, regardless.)

3) Why wasn't homeland security notified? (Assumption "A" is that they weren't. This is based on assumption "B", that the weapon was imported as fully automatic. I don't know who was notified or not. If I really wanted to know, I'd ask the simple question, sans snide, "To your knowledge, was Homeland Security notified?")

As to other issues raised:
I don't expect most contemporary, local, law enforcement officers to be familiar with black powder weapons. The bad guys they deal with don't use them and they haven't been common for more than 100 years. I do expect them to leave untouched a weapon or device with which they are not familiar, and get somebody who is familiar with it to secure the thing. This is the safe, common-sense thing to do.

Any firearm that is loaded with live rounds is "ready to dispatch a life". That is a point driven home in every gun safety course that exists, and in the basic training of every member of the armed forces. Others may correct me if I am mistaken, but the same courses and trainings emphasize that we should ALWAYS treat a firearm as if it were loaded and ready to take a life, whether we believe it is loaded or not.

In its essentials, "The Mad Mick's" story boils down to this:
A man from out-of-state walks into the local sheriff's dept. carrying a concealed, modern pistol. A search of the man's car reveals a modern longarm and 1,000 rounds of ammunition in the trunk, plus a loaded replica revolver hidden under the seat.

To my reading, that's a lot of deadly force being carted around by someone who apparently was clueless as to how many felonies he was comitting. If I desire any further information, or I believe there is a reason to contest the account, I'll do so politely.

[Shortround]

Well, I was an law enforcement officer from in the late '80s. I used to work with BATFE. During the same time I worked as a part timer in the Army Reserve. So, yes, I know a little about firearms.

The point of his initial post was to justify why his state has tough gun laws. Then he relates a story that has errors. Well, this written story may have to go in front of a grand jury. If the defense attorney is smart then they will attack the evidence in the charges. Bad evidence means that the charge is thrown out. If you charge the defendant that he has a fully automatic 22 caliber weapon and it comes out in discovery he has a semi-automatic .22 pistol then a good attorney will have that charge thrown out. (and the Feds will start to ignore that particular police district). A fully automatic AK-47 is not the same as a semi-automatic AKM, the real designation of an AK. Bad writing means bad charges and that leads to dismissals. America's "lets make a deal justice system" comes about because of bad charges and less than clear writing. It's not hard to be a good defense attorney; you just look for the errors by the police and they are legion. BTW, a fully automatic unlicensed AK-47 is a matter for the BATFE and homeland security. The fully automatic AK-47 is a favorite terrorist weapon. One the other hand they sell semi-automatic AKMs in Indiana and Michigan like candy.

We just don't know a lot about this story. First, where was the AMK stored? Was it in the trunk? Second, what about the 1000 rounds of ammo? We really don't know if the brass frame pistol is loaded. It could have ball and powder but not have percussion caps. This story has gaps and you've got to take it on faith that it's 100% correct. Well, a client will expect good representation and if the police can't write what really goes on then what are we to do? "Well, he meant this." Sorry, that does not fly in front of a grand jury.

Heck, if you didn't know about IL's gun laws and were passing through from one "easy" state to another "easy" state you could be looking at serious charges and you've done nothing wrong in your state. There used to be a term called "reprocity". Example, a marrage in state A would be recognized in state B. But this does not apply to firearms? Why not? A reenactor from Wisconsin could be driving through the state of IL, get stopped for a small infraction, and then be looking at serious jail time.

The original poster's words made it clear that firearms should be regulated. The general public may not be qualified to carry a weapon. However, if he's going to regulate our life then should be a subject matter expert. Remember, a good defense attorney costs about $100 per hour and minimum billing is going to be 40 - 80 hours. Do you have a spare $8K to discredit a badly written criminal complaint?

I do not view my fellow reenactor as a possible criminal. I view them as somebody who likes history and weapons.

I've written that PC attitudes and the new accept-the-gun-laws mentality will kill this hobby. I've seen nothing that will change this judgement.

[reb64]

[QUOTE=jgr1974]

Silly maybe, but here is a personal example. A gentleman from out of state walked into our local courthouse. MY now boss saw the "look" on his face and immediately took action. The man had a 22 caliber automatic in his pocket. Concealled carry illegal in this state he was immediatly arrested. The arrest led to a search of his vehicle where a fully automatic AK 47 was


Here in my part of ks he may just be asked to put the gun away. a guy once had a pistl hanging out of his trousers in a movie line. sherif had him lock it in car. heck you can drive here with ak's in your back window. concealed carry here in a courthouse might get a misdemeanor ticket depending on mood.

[jthlmnn]

Well, I was an law enforcement officer from in the late '80s. I used to work with BATFE. During the same time I worked as a part timer in the Army Reserve. So, yes, I know a little about firearms.

The point of his initial post was to justify why his state has tough gun laws. Then he relates a story that has errors. Well, this written story may have to go in front of a grand jury. If the defense attorney is smart then they will attack the evidence in the charges. Bad evidence means that the charge is thrown out. If you charge the defendant that he has a fully automatic 22 caliber weapon and it comes out in discovery he has a semi-automatic .22 pistol then a good attorney will have that charge thrown out. (and the Feds will start to ignore that particular police district). A fully automatic AK-47 is not the same as a semi-automatic AKM, the real designation of an AK. Bad writing means bad charges and that leads to dismissals. America's "lets make a deal justice system" comes about because of bad charges and less than clear writing. It's not hard to be a good defense attorney; you just look for the errors by the police and they are legion. BTW, a fully automatic unlicensed AK-47 is a matter for the BATFE and homeland security. The fully automatic AK-47 is a favorite terrorist weapon. One the other hand they sell semi-automatic AKMs in Indiana and Michigan like candy.

We just don't know a lot about this story. First, where was the AMK stored? Was it in the trunk? Second, what about the 1000 rounds of ammo? We really don't know if the brass frame pistol is loaded. It could have ball and powder but not have percussion caps. This story has gaps and you've got to take it on faith that it's 100% correct. Well, a client will expect good representation and if the police can't write what really goes on then what are we to do? "Well, he meant this." Sorry, that does not fly in front of a grand jury.

Heck, if you didn't know about IL's gun laws and were passing through from one "easy" state to another "easy" state you could be looking at serious charges and you've done nothing wrong in your state. There used to be a term called "reprocity". Example, a marrage in state A would be recognized in state B. But this does not apply to firearms? Why not? A reenactor from Wisconsin could be driving through the state of IL, get stopped for a small infraction, and then be looking at serious jail time.

The original poster's words made it clear that firearms should be regulated. The general public may not be qualified to carry a weapon. However, if he's going to regulate our life then should be a subject matter expert. Remember, a good defense attorney costs about $100 per hour and minimum billing is going to be 40 - 80 hours. Do you have a spare $8K to discredit a badly written criminal complaint?

I do not view my fellow reenactor as a possible criminal. I view them as somebody who likes history and weapons.

I've written that PC attitudes and the new accept-the-gun-laws mentality will kill this hobby. I've seen nothing that will change this judgement.

If this were a court of law, and "The Mad Mick" was the DA who wrote the charges, all of the above would be relevant. This isn't and he's not, so it ain't. (Apologies to my dearly departed English teachers.) Greater detail and support of facts asserted can gained with simple, direct questions, especially if asked politely. The most that can be said right now is that "The Mick's" writing style in that post more closely resembled a popular author than a lawyer.

I do not see that any errors have been established in the story. Questions were asked as to whether the firearms were truly automatic and how the ammunition was packaged. There has been nothing presented to refute the facts as originally presented. When the original poster either changes his story, or someone with first hand knowledge of the incident contradicts it, then errors will have been established. (I would, even then, maintain that the errors are minor for the purposes of this forum: as in "Could the guy have fired 30 rounds/minute or 300?" Both are quite dangerous, so the answer, in this place, is irrelevant to the point.)

Any responsible reenactor travelling through or to another state with a firearm or other weapon would research the laws and know what is required, the same as they would learn and obey the laws where he/she resides. (I have yet to attend a popular event just across the line with Illinois, but I know that my unit has published the applicable guidelines for members that do attend.) After all, the object of our attention is a functional weapon.

Reciprocity (mutual exchange of privileges between states, nations, businesses or individuals) is not commonly recognized for many things, like the carrying of open alcoholic beverages in a vehicle, legal drinking age, marital status (same-gender couple), license to practice law, etc. These days, it seems to be more the exception than the rule (outside of corporate status and contractual obligations).

I have no issue within anyone asking clarifying questions, or stating opinion as to existing laws. I do take exception when it appears to me that someone is being gratuitously trashed.

[tompritchett]

I have no issue within anyone asking clarifying questions, or stating opinion as to existing laws. I do take exception when it appears to me that someone is being gratuitously trashed.

Moderator Hat: Your point is well taken. I would suggest that further discussion of any details of this instance be postponed until, or if, "Mad Mick" wishs to clarify his post with more specifics.

[jgr1974]

Well all,

I am sorry that this has ruffled some feathers. My intent was to point out one that firearms are dangerous, no matter what era they were produced. Secondly That one must learn the laws of the states they are travelling or shipping to. As was the question asked.

I did not intend to open a platform for or against firearms. I am not the judge or the jury in this matter. My position is to enforce the laws made by our legislature. If this Gentleman I spoke of, had an agenda that was far more sinister than carrying a concealled weapon in my state, and he was simply allowed to "place the firearm in his vehicle", then cause a serious incident resulting in grave circumstance, the law enforcement community would have failed. If my now Boss had not followed proceedure in executing the laws of our state, he not only would have violated the oath he took, but also put the lives of our community in danger. I know the issue of firearms is a Pandora's box. I do not think this is the place to discuss this. If you have questions regarding this incident, you can send me a private message or email me, and I will try to clarify the questions you have.

TO the original point, check Local, State and Federal laws before travelling with or shipping firearms into another jurisdiction!

Moderators I am sorry to have step on some nerves of others. It was not my intent to do so. I see anger on a daily basis and by no means want to draw it to me. I simply want to share my knowledge I have gain with others, who are willing to listen and learn. I hope my 2cents does not shed a bad light on me!

Bro. Jeremy G Richardson
Watson, Illinois Lodge 602
AKA The Mad MIck!!!

[tompritchett]

Moderators I am sorry to have step on some nerves of others. It was not my intent to do so. I see anger on a daily basis and by no means want to draw it to me. I simply want to share my knowledge I have gain with others, who are willing to listen and learn. I hope my 2cents does not shed a bad light on me!

I understand and I understand what you were trying to do with your post. My reply was based more towards those that had taken issue with what you had posted. I would suggest that, if anyone has questions concerning the specifics of the incidence that Jeremy discussed earlier, that person contact Jeremy directly with those questions rather than attempt to negatively critique the scenario description in the open forum.

[FloridaConfederate]

The Firearms Owner's Protection Act of 1986, among many other things, amended the Gun Control Act of 1968 to allow for legal transportation of a firearm, for any lawful purpose, through states where a firearm is otherwise illegal, provided that possession of the firearm is lawful in the originating and final destinations and the firearm and all ammo are secured outside of the passenger compartment. (read: trunk).

[FloridaConfederate]

Gotta be unloaded too...