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michael.shafto
12-05-2007, 03:15 AM
Greetings,

I was recently brousing the insignia page of Fall Creek's website and saw a Federal officer insignia that caught my attention. It was crossed sabers with U.S.S. above between the blades. What is this? I attempted to research it online, but came up with nada. If anyone can help me, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!

Mike Shafto

Charles Reynolds
12-05-2007, 03:53 AM
How about United States Sharpshooters?

Chuck

ScottWashburn
12-05-2007, 04:05 AM
The United States Sharpshooter badges I've seen were all U.S.S.S. and didn't have any crossed sabres (which would indicate some sort of cavalry).

7thNJcoA
12-05-2007, 04:12 AM
sharpshooters developed thier own symbol later in the war and it wasnt cross sabers i do not recall what it was I have a picture on my other comp if I can find it. USS is a naval designation

Kevin O'Beirne
12-05-2007, 05:03 AM
It'll be interesting to see what turns up on this thread to answer the original question, but if no one can provide a response based on historical documentation, then the lesson may very well be, "It ain't necessarily correct just because a vendor sold it."

Of course, maybe it's insignia for an officer aboard the USS Crossed Sabres. :lol:

Lee Ragan
12-05-2007, 06:24 AM
It's a fantasy piece in my opinion. I've checked two very good references on Army branch-of-service insignia, and found nothing like crossed sabres with USS on them. The references I consulted are: "History of the Artillery, Cavalry & Infantry Branch of Service Insignia", By Leon Laframboise and "The Encyclopedia of United States Army Insignia & Uniforms", By William K. Emerson.
I also seriously doubt it is a state insignia by virtue of the "USS" on it.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
12-05-2007, 06:43 AM
Hallo!

"USS is a naval designation"

Not always... It was authorized for wear by enlisted Indian Scouts according to the AG's Office Circular No. 10, August 11, 1890, and appears above crossed arrows.

Curt

Rob Weaver
12-05-2007, 07:35 AM
My guess is that it is intended to be an officer board from the Indian Scouts. They were given formal uniform items about the time the various Indian wars were winding down in the late nineteenth century. The men and NCOs were native, but under white officers (Where have we seen that configuration before?) The official colors were red and white candy-striped, and the insignia of the branch was crossed arrows. However, since officers were commissioned in their branches at the time, I can see a cavalry officer wanting those sabers on his boards. I cannot vouch for the historicity of Scout officer insignia, beyond saying that they are hugely post Civil War. (Often during periods of active campaigning, Indian scouts were issued 4-button coats, dress hats and artillery brass to distinguish them from the hostiles. Little matter really, because many of them stopped to put on paint before an action if there was time.) FC does business in the Cowboy shooter arena as well as Civil War.

7thNJcoA
12-05-2007, 08:11 AM
You have to be carefull what vendors sell. If they offer a pink painted musket and say its correct but can not provide any documentation chances are its Farby or bogus altogether. BE WISE! There is alot of junk out there and people are getting rich off the idiots who buy before research is done.

Dignann
12-05-2007, 08:45 AM
Mike,

How about shooting Fall Creek an e-mail and see what they say? They sell it, therefore they may know what it is.

Eric

rick35ovi
12-05-2007, 08:46 AM
Fall creek does sell some stuff to the single action shooter groups out there, It is an indian scout badge, This is a forum from them that explains it fairly well http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=3817.msg209277

Lee Ragan
12-05-2007, 08:51 AM
You have to be carefull what vendors sell. If they offer a pink painted musket and say its correct but can not provide any documentation chances are its Farby or bogus altogether. BE WISE! There is alot of junk out there and people are getting rich off the idiots who buy before research is done.
My point exactly. After consulting the two references I mentioned in my post above, I am convinced it is a fantasy piece. If this was a "real", item of insignia, it would have been illustrated and discussed in at least one of those books, which are both considered highly cedible by insignia collectors and historians. The scouts wore USSS (Note: 3 S's), not USS and it was above crossed arrows, not crossed sabers. I've been a collector of U.S. Military insignia for over 30 years, and believe me, there is a LOT of fantasy crap produced and for sale that was never worn, much less authorized by the armed forces.

tompritchett
12-05-2007, 09:06 AM
Actually, it was Richard Chamberlain, right before he starred in "Shogun" and "The Thorn Birds".

Every now and then common sense does pop up here on the forum. Definitely, see what they claim it is and see what, if any, documentation they have on its use. Then, if you really want to be sure, do some independent research on that particular type of insignia to confirm or deny the claim.

WoodenNutmeg
12-05-2007, 09:17 AM
It's a fantasy piece in my opinion.

What it is is a Fall Creek piece.

michael.shafto
12-05-2007, 01:44 PM
Thank you all for your information. I really wasn't sure what it was, and Naval Cavalry just didn't add up in my mind. I really appreciate your comments and suggestions!

Best Regards,

Mike

E. J. Thomas Mercantile
12-05-2007, 06:11 PM
Although there is not much written about the USS Cavalry in the history books, I don't think we should be so quick to dismiss their service just because their "primary mission is to explore new worlds and to expand and defend the borders of the federation." I have found their little known unit history here:

http://www.uss-cavalry.org/SMS/

Remember to thank a vet!

OVI
12-05-2007, 11:51 PM
Although there is not much written about the USS Cavalry in the history books, I don't think we should be so quick to dismiss their service just because their "primary mission is to explore new worlds and to expand and defend the borders of the federation." I have found their little known unit history here:

http://www.uss-cavalry.org/SMS/

Remember to thank a vet!


I think you have misinterpreted the discussion. No one is dismissing the service of the actual USS Cavalry. The question is whether the piece in question is a replica of an authentic insignia or just someones idea of what they'd like to see. Real history or fantasy. Thats the discussion here.

Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

E. J. Thomas Mercantile
12-06-2007, 02:44 AM
Thanks Kent! Actually, if you click on the link I think you will see that my post was merely a stab at humor, although I now fear I missed the mark.

I have no idea what the insignia is meant to represent, however, if you read the description of the embroidered insignia on FC's page it states "Any design can be made. Please submit your design or documentation". So maybe, just maybe this is where that particular 'design' originated.

Doug Cooper
12-06-2007, 04:16 AM
Everybody is wrong here - it isn't United States at all, but the badge of the Ukranian Scout Service, a WW2 Soviet partisan cavalry unit. Mean dudes, as any former Wermacht train guard would tell you...and they were not fond of Stalin either, as they disappeared around May 1945.

Seriously, somebody out there wears this badge, or Andy would not produce it. Perhaps there just needs to be an explanation on the website.

michael.shafto
12-08-2007, 01:37 AM
All,

Thanks for the great info. I enjoy looking into obscure roles in Civil War Reenacting. As an administrative specialist in the modern Army, I have learned quickly to appreciate the roles played behind the scenes that make the military function. As a sidenote, I am also now a proud member of the USS Cavalry's crew, exploring strange new worlds. Just kidding!!!!

Thanks again!

Mike

OVI
12-08-2007, 03:38 AM
Thanks Kent! Actually, if you click on the link I think you will see that my post was merely a stab at humor, although I now fear I missed the mark.



Doh....I missed the mark...and the humor. Beam me up Scotty...no intelligent life at my keyboard some mornings.

Kirk out

Hiline
12-11-2007, 02:28 AM
I'm thinking Indian war period and issued to the calvary scouts like Kit Carson, Jim Bridger and such. No research but seems the most plausible.

Lee Ragan
12-11-2007, 08:03 AM
I saw some of these this past weekend at an Indian Wars living history event here in Texas. They are supposed to be "United States Scouts". However, I still believe this is a figment of sombody's imagination.
Number one: No known documentation.
Number two: Scouts (with the exception of later uniformed Indian scouts), were civilians. Civilians did NOT wear uniforms and did not wear insignia. The Indian Scouts of the late 19th century wore crossed arrows with U.S.S. as a branch of service insignia.
Until someone comes up with some documentation to the contrary, I'd still say the crossed sabres with USS is a fantasy piece made to sell to reenactors like the famous silver CSA within a gold metal wreath that we have all seen being worn.