Anyone have a Whitworth Rifle for sale or trade?

[Pistolero]

Hello all,
I was wondering if anyone in the Alabama or close to Alabama has a Whitworth or maybe even a "Volunteer" rifle (more or less a copy of a Kerr isn't it?) in good condition for sale or trade? I have an Uberti 1860 Henry Rifle in excellent condition I would trade. I do not mind driving a ways say like into the neighboring states a ways to make a trade.

As for the Whitworth, I want it to have the correct Hexagonal rifling. I understand there is a copy of a Whitworth out there that has a round bore instead of the Hex bore. I want the correct hex bore.
Thanks,
Pistolero
Millbrook, Al.

[rick35ovi]

I have a friend of mine that bought one this year and it has the correct hexagonal rifling,

[tompritchett]

Check Dixie Gun Works
I have a friend of mine that bought one this year and it has the correct hexagonal rifling,

I also bought one from there and it has the hexaganol rifling. As a proud owner of a Whitworth, I suspect that you are not going to find very many Whitworth owners who are willing to part with theirs. I would bite the bullet and buy a new one.

[FloridaConfederate]

Hello all,
I have an Uberti 1860 Henry Rifle in excellent condition I would trade. I do not mind driving a ways say like into the neighboring states a ways to make a trade.


Pistolero
Millbrook, Al.

A non-FFL (Federal Firearms Licensee) cannot transfer a firearm interstate to an individual without going through an FFL for the transfer

Chris Rideout
Tampa, FLorida

[Brent Wood]

How much for the henry outright? what caliber?

[Brent Wood]

A non-FFL (Federal Firearms Licensee) cannot transfer a firearm interstate to an individual without going through an FFL for the transfer

Chris Rideout
Tampa, FLorida

If you do it in person, you don't have to through an FFL, Only if you ship it through the mail. [deletion -THP; just in case]

[FloridaConfederate]

Ok ....but I personally might think twice about admitting guilt to "many" federal felonies on the WEB

I refer you to the Gun Control Act of GCA 1968 outside of cases of bequest or intestate succession

and for the sake of brevity....

to these snipets from the BATFE website and FAQ

1) A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her state, if the buyer is not prohibited by law from receiving or possessing a firearm, or to a licensee in any state. A firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

2) A person may only buy a firearm within the person's own state, except that he or she may buy a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any state, provided the sale complies with state laws applicable in the state of sale and the state where the purchaser resides. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

3) A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

[Pistolero]

Hello all,
Thanks for the responses y'all. First of all, a muzzle loader can be sent or carried across state lines. But as far as a cartidge gun like the Henry, I was under the impression that while you can't take handguns across state lines and sell them, it is ok for long guns such as shotguns or rifles. Am I wrong in this, does anyone know for sure? I think I am going to call the police station and see if they have the answer.

Hey Whitworth owners, I have a question: I went to Dixie Gun Works and looked at what they have. They offer two or three different ones; a Parker Hale for like $1400.00, another one for like $1300.00, and Dixie Gunworks' own offering at $950.00. Which ones do y'all have and do they shoot as accurately as they say or the original ones supposedly did? I might just break down and buy me the Dixie one for $950.00. I would love to have a Perker Hale Whitworth since they are supposedly made with the original gauges, better steel, etc.. But I just can't afford $1400.00 right now.

What do y'all know about that "Volunteer" rifle with the Alexander Henry type rifling? I heard that it is actually a copy of the Kerr rifle?

Anyway, Brent, you were asking about my Henry. It is in .45 Colt, and is accurate. I paid $1100.00 for it, tax and all. Give me a hollar.
Pistolero
Alabama

[FloridaConfederate]

Yes somebody knows for sure.....being one who likes to be shown not told myself personally.......here you go:

From the United States Code (which I cited previously)


TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(1) for any person—

(A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce; or

(B) except a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, to engage in the business of importing or manufacturing ammunition, or in the course of such business, to ship, transport, or receive any ammunition in interstate or foreign commerce;

(2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that—

(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;

(B) this paragraph shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer from depositing a firearm for conveyance in the mails to any officer, employee, agent, or watchman who, pursuant to the provisions of section 1715 of this title, is eligible to receive through the mails pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person, for use in connection with his official duty; and

(C) nothing in this paragraph shall be construed as applying in any manner in the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any possession of the United States differently than it would apply if the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or the possession were in fact a State of the United States;

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

and a link

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

Chiristopher Rideout

[FloridaConfederate]

Hello all,
Thanks for the responses y'all. First of all, a muzzle loader can be sent or carried across state lines. But as far as a cartidge gun like the Henry, I was under the impression that while you can't take handguns across state lines and sell them, it is ok for long guns such as shotguns or rifles. Am I wrong in this, does anyone know for sure? I think I am going to call the police station and see if they have the answer.

Hey Whitworth owners, I have a question: I went to Dixie Gun Works and looked at what they have. They offer two or three different ones; a Parker Hale for like $1400.00, another one for like $1300.00, and Dixie Gunworks' own offering at $950.00. Which ones do y'all have and do they shoot as accurately as they say or the original ones supposedly did? I might just break down and buy me the Dixie one for $950.00. I would love to have a Perker Hale Whitworth since they are supposedly made with the original gauges, better steel


Pistolero
Alabama

The commericially available Whitworth repops (non-custom one-of)
are made by Euroarms....who makes the Dixie and the Parker Hale one...

They are marked differently that is all.

Link http://www.euroarms.net/euroarms_netcompany_file/FRcompany_profile.htm

[FloridaConfederate]

Almost forgot a period reference


Ha ! Here it comes; the boom of a cannon and the bursting of the shell in our midst. Ha! Ha! Give us another blizzard! Boom ! Boom ! That's right you aint hurtin nothin

"Hold on boys," says a sharpshooter armed with a Whitworth gun. "Ill stop that racket wait until I see her smoke agan." Boom the keen crack of Whitworth rings upon the frosty mornign air; the cannoners are seen to lie down..the battery is seen to limber to the rear" Sam Watkins, Co. H 1st Tennessee Regment

Chris Rideout

[Pistolero]

Hello,
I have read Sam Watkins' book "Co. Aytch" a couple of times, but it has been a long time. I really must re-read it. To me it is one of the best diary type books I've ever read. You can really relate to them, and feel the comraderie, etc..
Pistolero
Alabama

[FloridaConfederate]

Read all you can.......then read some more.

First person is best ......diaries, letters etc

If you liked "Co. Aytch"

Get "Diary of a Confederate Soldier" (John S. Jackman, Orphan Brigade ) next !!!

and since you like Whitworths...might I suggest

"The Confederate Whitworth Sharpshooters" by John Morrow

CJ Rideout

[18th Texas]

Being a retired Law Enforcement Officer, we were taught, that No FFL is required to sell Reproduction Firearms, blackpowder reproductions of models prior to 1898, These weapons are exempt as firearms. Some state regulations vary, but even Texas Exempts their status.
I resently purchased a .44 Colt 1851 Navy from Cabela's and did not have to provide any identification, I ordered online, as it is exempt from Federal Regulations and it arrived two days later.


Antiques


Antique firearms and replicas are exempted from the aforementioned restrictions. Antique firearms are defined as: any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898, and any replica of a firearm as designed above if the replica is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center-fire ammunition, or uses fixed ammunition, which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels or commercial trade, any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. (Note: Antiques exemptions vary considerably under state laws.)

Although your State and local laws may vary, any firearm with a frame or receiver that actually made before Jan. 1, 1899 is legally "antique" and not considered a "firearm" under Federal law. This refers to the actual date of manufacture of the receiver/frame, not just model year or patent date marked. (For example, only ***low serial number*** Winchester Model 1894 lever actions are actually antique.) No FFL is required to buy or sell antiques across state lines. They are in the same legal category as a muzzle loading replica.


Chapter 44. Firearms
(Title18, U.S. Code, Sections 921-929)

16) The term "antique firearm" means:
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica:
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition.For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

[FloridaConfederate]

Being a retired Law Enforcement Officer, we were taught, that No FFL is required to sell Reproduction Firearms, blackpowder reproductions of models prior to 1898, These weapons are exempt as firearms. Some state regulations vary, but even Texas Exempts their status.
I resently purchased a .44 Colt 1851 Navy from Cabela's and did not have to provide any identification, I ordered online, as it is exempt from Federal Regulations and it arrived two days later.


Antiques


Antique firearms and replicas are exempted from the aforementioned restrictions. Antique firearms are defined as: any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898, and any replica of a firearm as designed above if the replica is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center-fire ammunition, or uses fixed ammunition, which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels or commercial trade, any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. (Note: Antiques exemptions vary considerably under state laws.)

Although your State and local laws may vary, any firearm with a frame or receiver that actually made before Jan. 1, 1899 is legally "antique" and not considered a "firearm" under Federal law. This refers to the actual date of manufacture of the receiver/frame, not just model year or patent date marked. (For example, only ***low serial number*** Winchester Model 1894 lever actions are actually antique.) No FFL is required to buy or sell antiques across state lines. They are in the same legal category as a muzzle loading replica.


Chapter 44. Firearms
(Title18, U.S. Code, Sections 921-929)

16) The term "antique firearm" means:
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica:
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition.For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

What type ammo does a replica 1860 Henry shoot ? (.45lc & .38/.357)

Doesnt the red citation in your post contradict your legal opnion / theory ???

Christopher Rideout
Florida

[tompritchett]

Doesnt the red citation in your post contradict your legal opnion / theory ???


Look more closely at section (B)(ii) which states "uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade". Remember these clauses are all linked with"or"s meaning that only one condition needs to be met for the firearm to be considered an "antique firearm".

[FloridaConfederate]

If the Uberti Henry in question is chambered for .44 Henry (rimfire) or some other long forgotten caliber..... yes you are correct.

But me no think Uberti or anyone is churning out .44 Henry rimfire...???

Re-read it.....see the distinction ?

Chris

[tompritchett]

But me no think Uberti or anyone is churning out .44 Henry rimfire...???

Re-read it.....see the distinction ?

The question is not whether or not there are modern munitions of the same caliber but whether or not there are modern munitions that will work in the Henry. Just because the round is the same caliber does not necessarily mean that it will fit. It is my understanding, and I could very easily be wrong here, that reenactors using Henry's have to make their own blanks. The real question would be whether the NSSA Henry shooters can buy ammunition or if they also have to pack their own.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

The Uberti M1860 Henry is not made in the original's .44 Henry Rimfire. The copper .44 Henry Rimfire is an "obsolete cartridge." (Many lads chose .44-40 (.44 WCF) as it is "closer" to .44 than the .45 Colt that the original Henry's were not made in.)
The repro M1860 Henry, M1866 Improved Henry, and M1873/76/86/94 Winchester all are made for modern cartridges and are Federally "BATF-able" "FFL-able."

With the varied differences, at times, between Federal, State, and "Local" laws, IMHO it is ALWAYS best to know the laws effecting buyer and seller where they live.

(Shoot, we cannot even come to agreement, let alone concensus on the "easy" stuff such as "serial numbers" on repro Enfields and Springfields.
:-) )

Curt

[reb64]

A non-FFL (Federal Firearms Licensee) cannot transfer a firearm interstate to an individual without going through an FFL for the transfer

Chris Rideout
Tampa, FLorida


since when?

[FloridaConfederate]

Directly from....


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b3



To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]



From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Christopher Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[mikepatty4]

Being an FFL holder myself I can tell you that Florida Confederate is 100% correct, to sell that Uberti Henry to a non licensed (FFL Holder) individual residing in another State other than that of the seller is illegal punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment up to 5 years.
My recomendation is to either trade it to someone who lives in your state ( after contacting you locale law enforcement to make sure that is legal where you live) or use an FFL . Interstate transfer is covered in Federal Law and Federal Law forbids it ( unless you use an FFL) The States of residence of both the buyer and seller cannot supercede federal law , the can only be more restrictive.
The only legal way for a non licensee to purchase a long gun (modern) out of thier State of residence is at the counter of a FFL dealer and only if the laws of both the FFL holders State and the State where the buyer lives will not be violated
www.atf.gov for more info

Take care
Mike

[tompritchett]

The Uberti M1860 Henry is not made in the original's .44 Henry Rimfire. The copper .44 Henry Rimfire is an "obsolete cartridge." (Many lads chose .44-40 (.44 WCF) as it is "closer" to .44 than the .45 Colt that the original Henry's were not made in.)
The repro M1860 Henry, M1866 Improved Henry, and M1873/76/86/94 Winchester all are made for modern cartridges and are Federally "BATF-able" "FFL-able."

Thank you for the clarification.

[Pistolero]

Hey y'all,
Thanks for the informatiion pertaining to the law about buying and selling firearms out of state. clearing that upfor me. For some reason I was thinking you could with long arms, just not handguns. Thanks for stearing me in the right direction. I will keep it within the borders of the Sovereign State of Alabama.
Take care,
Pistolero

[Poor Private]

Just because a person has a FFL license does not mean that they are an expert on the law of what firearms has to be licensed. I ran into this problem a year or so ago with a gun shop that has been in business for over 50 years it's known statewide. I tried to buy a BP pistol a 62 brass pocket police pistol to be exact. I was told that I needed a purchase permit from my county sheriffs office in order to purchase. After gettting tired of argueing with them I left in a huff and came home and downloaded the law from Michigan regarding them. Took it back to the shop, they looked at it and said ahh let me call my regional director. After a 20 minute wait he came back and sheepshly said geee, gosh , umm sorry you were right. I puchased the handgun. This law had/has been in effect since 2005. Seems to me that if buying and selling weapons is your profession that you would keep up with the law, or have your legal rep keep up with it!
Basically it states that any non cartridge weapon does not need a permit to purchase in the state of Michigan but you must be of legal age.