Civilian Wall Tent

[John "Gianni" Shoptaw]

WTB--Civilian Wall Tent ---If anyone has a good used one let us know.

Thanks,

John

[Lightningslinger]

WTB--Civilian Wall Tent ---If anyone has a good used one let us know.

Thanks,

John

John,

This is an intriguing question. What were the styles of civilian obtainable tentage used during any of the gold rush expeditions in California and Alaska?

Some may have had scalloped and colour bordered marquee wouldn't you suppose?

Walt

[Julius]

John,

This is an intriguing question. What were the styles of civilian obtainable tentage used during any of the gold rush expeditions in California and Alaska?

Some may have had scalloped and colour bordered marquee wouldn't you suppose?

Walt

I grew up in the southern region of California Gold country and have been to many related museum. I have as of yet not seen a scalloped tent in reference or in picture. That is not to say they did not existence. I just don't know about them. From pictures I have seen from the time, wall tents were prevalent as were simple lean toos(sp) . Baker tents had not yet been invented so those are out.
Didn't mean to hijack the thread. Just tossing out some info.

[Lightningslinger]

I have as of yet not seen a scalloped tent in reference or in picture. That is not to say they did not existence. I just don't know about them. From pictures I have seen from the time, wall tents were prevalent as were simple lean toos (sp) . Baker tents had not yet been invented so those are out.
Didn't mean to hijack the thread. Just tossing out some info.

Russ,

A timely post yours is, and, it further sheds infomation on a rather obscure topic (at least to me). I wasn't going after tent construction when hitting those neat repositories that house scads of period catalogues. Just wasn't ever on any of my to-do lists.

I have, however, viewed a number of sutler tents at re-created 17th and 18th century outings and noticed the tent edge-scalloping. Doesn't General Washington's somewhat oblong hd. qtrs., tent at the Smithsonian, have a scallop'd edging around the top edges?

You aren't hijacking this tread... you're hi-grading it my good man.

To-day, there is no doubt about which is which but would anyone else out upon the cyber sea wish to a take a stab at defining what properties constitute a civilian versus a military wall tent of the 1830's 1860's period?

Walt

[NoahBriggs]

To-day, there is no doubt about which is which but would anyone else out upon the cyber sea wish to a take a stab at defining what properties constitute a civilian versus a military wall tent of the 1830's 1860's period?

Yeah, he's got a point. Sometimes I wonder if we apply vague arbitrary terms to items that don't need it. One could probably research what kind of tentage was available at say, an Awakening revival meeting, or on one of the Trails in the 40s and 50s. And one might note that people either slept inside the wagons, undeneath them, or other ways that did not necessitate raising canvas. Tents and canvas were noticably absent even on camping trips, too. Would you feel like pitching a tent after walking twenty miles? People walking from one town to another over a course of several days either took their chances in open aire, or bummed some space and a sip of water in someone's barn/well, respectively.

Getting back to the question at hand if you want to invest in a basic wall tent then head to Panther Lodges and see what they have. And for God's sakes put the fly over the tent like the Original Cast did, instead of setting up a "front porch", like like modern reenactors do for some bizarre reason.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

I have, however, viewed a number of sutler tents at re-created 17th and 18th century outings and noticed the tent edge-scalloping. Doesn't General Washington's somewhat oblong hd. qtrs., tent at the Smithsonian, have a scallop'd edging around the top edges?



Hmmn...there is almost an 80 year gap between the American War for Independance and the Souther War for Independance...it is important in researching that we survey the period at hand, and not pollute this with eras coming way before.

Paul B.

[Lightningslinger]

... Getting back to the question at hand if you want to invest in a basic wall tent then head to Panther Lodges and see what they have. And ... put the fly [I]over the tent like the Original Cast did, instead of setting up a "front porch", like like modern reenactors do for some bizarre reason.

Noah,

You've just touched on an area where I have done some photo identification and I can let everyone know that while the original purpose for the second covering of a tent roof was for water-proofing I can unequivocally state that many tent-fly's were indeed used as what may be known as dining flys.

I've also come across photographic examples showing the extension dining flys along with others currently being used for the double roof at the same time.

Neat huh?

I can only suspect that as the war wore on and the quartermaster / baggage-masters - and other such necessary bean counters had to become a bit stingy about campaign weight, horses and that saw the issuance of written orders doing way (or re-distributed) access baggage with factors such as tent flys.

To-gether with research we grow. I'll have to tell you about my safety pin challenge sometime.

Walt

[Lightningslinger]

Hmmn...there is almost an 80 year gap between the American War for Independence and the Souther War for Independence...it is important in researching that we survey the period at hand, and not pollute this with eras coming way before.Paul B.

Thanks Paul. Good point. Would anyone wish to start a thread about the use of Tri-corn head wear at First Manassas?

As a sidelite, I have been led to believe that 1860's era surplus canteens were re-covered and issued during the Spanish-American War. Have you heard that too?

Walt
PS I thought my timeline was only 30 years or so (1830-1860's) .... General Washington's tent construction was solely for example.

[LadyTopaz]

Please take no offense in this I was just curious how and when someone looking to buy something turned into a did they or didnt they discussion????


Yours in confusion,
Crystal

[Lightningslinger]

Please take no offense in this I was just curious how and when someone looking to buy something turned into a did they or didn't they discussion???? Yours in confusion, Crystal

Sorry Lady Topaz,

I've only been on this forum a few months and may have to review the guidelines provided at the time I was first allowed to post. Might you wish to enlighten me and others as to what is proper and what is not about how the thought process is to be applied when answering and/or inquiring about nomenclature.

Much Obliged to You Crystal for Raising the Question,
Walt Mathers

[LadyTopaz]

I was under the impression that the forum for discussions was for discussions and the forum for buying and selling items was for buying and selling items.


Still in confusion,
Crystal

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Sorry Lady Topaz,

I've only been on this forum a few months and may have to review the guidelines provided at the time I was first allowed to post. Might you wish to enlighten me and others as to what is proper and what is not about how the thought process is to be applied when answering and/or inquiring about nomenclature.

Much Obliged to You Crystal for Raising the Question,
Walt Mathers
Don't hide behind, "I'm new here", you're not new to living history or sharing information. Its about courtesy, so let me enlighten you. This is at least the second time that you have hijacked a thead where one person was either trying to sell an item or buy one. If you have information pertaining to the direct buy or selling of an item, by all means post what you have. If you have information not directly related to said sale or information that may enlighten the reading public, START A NEW THREAD. Please, stop hijacking the threads with information like the use of tent flies when someone is just trying to buy a tent. Its good information though, just please start a new thread in the correct placement. By the way, what the heck does recovered CW canteens reissued in the Span Am war have anything to do with tents or anything the original posted wanted to know?

[Lightningslinger]

D...Please, stop hijacking the threads with information like the use of tent flies when someone is just trying to buy a tent.

Noah... Don't worry. I'll take the flak (can I offer that somewhat modernly used term here?) for answering your remark about the tent-fly statement/question/discovery/revelation. Don't know yet if "Civilian Wall Tents" were so equipped. Have yet to identify that particular beast.

Ross,

This gent wasn't wanting to obtain a common tent was he? Oh. I forgot... You may refer to the "Common Tent" as an "A" tent or even an "A Frame" as I've heard others so call them.

So, can you please help me and others here identify just what the term "Civilian Wall Tent" might represent? Can't offer what the gent might want if we know not how to describe its properties.

Thanks Muchly,
Walt
PS All supposed high-jackings aside --- Do you suppose that Mr. Shoptaw was ever successful in obtaining his specified tentage since Armistice Day last? What might such a civilian wall tent have looked like? Is this an on-topic question?

[Elaine Kessinger]

Mr.Walt- I'm curious about your safety pin challenge. What was it? Where can you answer without hi-jacking this thread?
With curiosity-
-Elaine Kessinger

[hta1970]

Noah placed the comment about having the fly correctly placed over the tent.

Walt you came back that you have seen many images of the fly being used as a front porch.

Walt, would you care to share these images with the forum, along with their provenance? I know many would love to see them....

[Lightningslinger]

Mr.Walt- I'm curious about your safety pin challenge. What was it? Where can you answer without hi-jacking this thread?
With curiosity- -Elaine Kessinger

I don't know but I bet Ross would. Wonder if John ever got the civilian tent he wanted back on Armistice Day last. I've never been able to identify one of them myself.

Forget the safety pins... Did I ever tell you about different kinds of disposable paper fasteners prior to the advent of paper clips?


Tks Elaine....
Walt
PS You're not trying to get me in Dutch are you :cool: ? Never really thought of myself as a hi-jacker -- well much. :rolleyes:

[Lightningslinger]

Noah placed the comment about having the fly correctly placed over the tent.

Walt you came back that you have seen many images of the fly being used as a front porch.

Walt, would you care to share these images with the forum, along with their provenance? I know many would love to see them....

Harry:

I guess there are perhaps a number here who have somehow taken to an understanding that there was only one correct usage of a tent fly and that this square of canvas was never known to have been used as a porch front.

Help is on the way! Don't mind enlightening my comrades at-re-enacting-arms in the least Harry. How many examples (in your opinion) would it take to convince those here seeking that it was done? Three? Five? Would wartime images now housed at Archives II in College Park, MD or the Library of Congress in the District be acceptable Harry or would it have to come from a number of collections outside of the Federal Government?

Let's begin with a partial LOC list below.
Enjoy and Tks for Ask'g,
Walt
~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cwpb/03500/03540r.jpg

TIITLE: General U.S. Grant in camp
CALL NUMBER: LC-B811- 4037[P&P]
REPRODUCTION NUMBER: LC-DIG-cwpb-03540 (digital file from original neg.)
RIGHTS INFORMATION: No known restrictions on publication.
MEDIUM: 1 negative : glass, wet collodion.
CREATED/PUBLISHED: [between 1861 and 1869]
NOTES:
Caption from negative sleeve: Gen. Grant and staff.
Forms part of Civil War glass negative collection (Library of Congress).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cwpb/04100/04105r.jpg

TITLE: [Cumberland Landing, Va. Federal encampment; another view]
CALL NUMBER: LC-B817- 7648[P&P]
REPRODUCTION NUMBER: LC-DIG-cwpb-04105 (digital file from original neg.)
LC-B8171-7648 (b&w film neg.)
RIGHTS INFORMATION: No known restrictions on publication.
SUMMARY: Photograph from the main eastern theater of war, the Peninsular Campaign, May-August 1862.
MEDIUM: 1 negative : glass, wet collodion.
CREATED/PUBLISHED: 1862 May.
NOTES:
Civil War photographs, 1861-1865 / compiled by Hirst D. Milhollen and Donald H. Mugridge, Washington, D.C. : Library of Congress, 1977. No. 0051
Title from Milhollen and Mugridge.
Forms part of Civil War glass negative collection (Library of Congress).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3b20000/3b29000/3b29400/3b29446r.jpg

TITLE: Group at Headquarters, Army of Potomac, October 1862
CALL NUMBER: LOT 4188 [item] [P&P]
REPRODUCTION NUMBER: LC-USZ62-82793 (b&w film copy neg.)
RIGHTS INFORMATION: No known restrictions on publication.
SUMMARY: H.F. Clark, A.V. Colburn, J. Buford, J. Letterman, Mr. Coleman, John Gibbon, and J.C. Duane seated and reclining under tree in front of tents.
MEDIUM: 1 photographic print. CREATED/PUBLISHED: 1862 October.
NOTES: No. 5086.
Civil War Collection. Civil War Photograph Collection (Library of Congress).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here are a few others for the clicking:

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3b10000/3b15000/3b15300/3b15372r.jpg

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3b40000/3b47000/3b47800/3b47846t.gif

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3b40000/3b47000/3b47800/3b47847t.gif

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cwpb/03700/03771r.jpg

~~~~~~~~~~``30``~~~~~~~~~~~

[Frenchie]

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/Darkfold_2006/Emoticons/heh.gif Never say "never".

[Lightningslinger]

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/Darkfold_2006/Emoticons/heh.gif Never say "never".

I'm with you Frenchie! And the neatest thing is.... Once you show me the light, I can go on spreading the word in a more enlightened way. Its good to be corrected 'cause its better to learn without losing any digits in the process. Proverbs 12:1.

Walt

[hanktrent]

I guess there are perhaps a number here who have somehow taken to an understanding that there was only one correct usage of a tent fly and that this square of canvas was never known to have been used as a porch front.

My connection's too slow to open all the pictures, but it's my general understanding that the main difference between the way flies are sometimes pitched at reenactments, and the way they're pitched in the period, is that in the period, the angle of the fly is typically the same as the angle of the tent.

Many reenactors tend to set the porch fly up with a flatter angle. For example, chosen randomly as the first example from a Google Image search for Civil War reenactment camp: http://www.n7tgb.net/images/kitcarson/dscn1894.jpg

Are there any examples of flat flies like that in the period?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Lightningslinger]

Walt, would you care to share these images with the forum, along with their provenance? I know many would love to see them....

Harry,

I have just recv'd word from a source rather close to me (me dear wife, mate) that my post wording (while also providing the URL's showing tent fly's being used as porches) may have been perceived as a well-aimed taunt.

Please don't take my exuberant reply the wrong way. When I exclaimed that "Help Is On the Way!" in mine entitled: "Tent Fly Usages - Two Fold" of yesterday, I had a vision that the cavalry had just topped the crest of the hill and the day was about to be saved for those period scholars who are ever in search of Truth, Justice and the American Way. I'm one of the latter in search of the truth. My hat is off to you and Noah and all others who actively seek to gain provenance for their presentations. Sometimes, though, it feels REALLY GREAT to be able to contribute with a bugle in hand and a saddle beneath the breeches too.

Best Regards,
Walt

[Lightningslinger]

...but it's my general understanding that the main difference between the way flies are sometimes pitched at reenactments, and the way they're pitched in the period, is that in the period, the angle of the fly is typically the same as the angle of the tent.Hank Trent

Hank,

While your question relative to 'pitch' of angle of period vs. modern tent porch portrayals/exhibits/demonstrations, sort of came out of left field for me I can say that the different angle/pitch views are out there. I've seen them and know that with extensive searching I could once more bring them to light. Others here may wish to take a turn at it.

I can however help those who may now be questioning the angle of their own tent fly when pressed into re-created service as it would have been for its original purpose - that of shedding water (see below).

When playing the angles folks, please keep the following vision in your instant-recall mental haversack:

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cwpb/03900/03960r.jpg

The image you provide in your last to me http://www.n7tgb.net/images/kitcarson/dscn1894.jpg , reminds me of three things:

1st. I've seen signal re-enactors with tent area set-ups much like the one you have provided for comparison, except that there are SOOOOOoooooo many colourful signal flags fluttering at such locations as to make me wonder if a used-waggon salesman hadn't hooked up to draw 'extra' attention to the location ;) ,

2ndly. I pity the horse that would have to haul such an overloaded and groaningly full waggon. Civilians may do as they please but might we too suppose that military versions of what trappings lay beneath the angled porch fly in your above image is why General Orders had to be published to the military concerning the allowable amount of weight permissible when a tune known as "The General" was sounded in camps? Human nature? I too have an attic full of human nature, and,

3rdly. Perhaps we may have inadvertently stumbled onto the very item John Shoptaw was looking for last Armistice Day when he advertise for a "Civilian" wall tent with all of the essential trappings. Like the card says.... don't leave home without it! :o