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View Full Version : Improvements needed in traffic flow at Cedar Creek



JoeBordonaro
10-21-2007, 06:23 PM
Friends,
The folks in Middletown need to make some improvements in traffic flow after the Cedar Creel event ends on Sunday. The gate that is normally used to exit the Confederate parking area was locked and the line trying to get out the entrance wasn't moving. Someone finally took matters into their own hands and removed the gate from its hinges and swung it open. Otherwise people would've been trapped in that lot for hours. Keeping the gate locked seems to me to be risking a catastrophe. What if someone had had an medical emergency in that lot and the ambulance couldn't get inside? This issue needs to be addressed if the folks at the Cedar Creek Foundation want to see the continued large attendance by reenactors at the Foundation's premier event/money raiser of the year that they presently are enjoying. I certainly won't be going back if improvements aren't made and announced in a timely fashion.
-Joe Bordonaro

Huck Finn
10-21-2007, 08:50 PM
With the exception of Friday, the weather was great. The Valley needs rain and Friday's brief, and I mean brief showers do not count.

The good stuff - Always great to see folks and help out a great cause. Amenities were the usual and the camps, at least the ones near us, seemed to settle down shortly after "all quiet". The battles were well organized and for some reason, the loud speaker announcer was not as noticeable as in years past. Sutler row was full of quality vendors (why wasn't this list on the CC web site) and some had decent sales going on over the weekend.

The okay stuff - Why the dawn tactical? Distances seem to continue to be an issue in the battles. Several years ago CC opened several fields (I think this was 2004) and for once we did not have to look like we were shooting ducks. Saw some gal-troops, some more obvious than others. In an estimate it appeared about 70% of the kits were decent with 25% being excellent. Church services were good.

The "needs improvement" stuff - Organization of company streets seems to suffer more every year. Military decorum, at least in the Confederate camps, is attempted but is loosely maintained. Alcohol is plentiful and a number of folks at our end of camp were smashed by 20:00.

The trip home will be tomorrow, as the plane leaves early from Dulles. As my last event for the season, I would have to admit it was fun. Out of the 200 rounds I brought, about 50 were given away before departing. I make CC every couple of years and probably will be back. It would only take a little effort to make this a great event.

bill watson
10-21-2007, 10:27 PM
The Confederate cavalry was quite good on Saturday. Lots of energy and dash and realistic reaction to the situation. And they got a couple of platoons of federal cavalry completely flummoxed by appearing in their rear after taking advantage of Today's Word, which is "Defilade."

The observation has been made, not by me but I wish I'd thought of it, that at lot of us go to this event because it's the equivalent of your high school homecoming. You might wish some folks had had a different outcome or chosen a different path, but you're still glad to see them. It's a different set of expectations to manage if you approach it that way. Schnapps, was that you? I talked to so many people this weekend I can't keep straight who said what.

dedogtent
10-21-2007, 10:34 PM
Joe, sorry you had trouble getting out after the event. You have a great point as that being a real safety issue if there was an emergency. We zipped right out of federal camp with no problems.

Speaking of Federal camp, Vincent's Brigade anyway, we started the camp and street layouts looking pretty sharp and within four streets the camps looked like a train wreck. I'm not sure what happened.

I thought today's (Sunday) battle was one of the best in quite awhile. It was great to use the large fields and move from one segment of the field, retreat, and move onto the other large portion of the field. The weather was great. All in all I had a pretty good time.

Pvt Schnapps
10-21-2007, 11:04 PM
Full AAR to follow in a few days, but Bill, I do think I've referred to Cedar Creek as "homecoming" for a few years now, by which I mean that it provides an opportunity to meet, work, and play with each other on several levels, without prejudice to any particular faction.

After trashing it three years ago, I've come to love it for what it is. There's a lot to criticize, but a lot to like, too. On the whole, it is an event that accepts most all reenactors on their own terms, and there is more in that to treasure than to despise. More later.

JoeBordonaro
10-22-2007, 07:46 AM
Friends,
Having complained about the traffic flow, I feel obligated to present a plan to improve it. Here goes:
1. Instead of "Federal" and "Confederate" parking lots, how about a "Traveling North" after the event, and a "Traveling South" after the event parking lots? This way folks traveling north don't have to fight their way through traffic exiting the spectator parking area. Likewise, people traveling south can make a left out of their parking lot and not have to wait for people trying to turn right into the most congested part of Route 11, near the exit for the spectator parking lot.
2. Do not allow cars to enter the camp on Sunday afternoon until the spectator parking lot is pretty much emptied out, or at least for one hour after the end of the battle, whichever comes first. This would discourage folks from running over to the parking lots to try to "get into camp first" to break down their camp.
3. The small parking lot northwest of the battlefield should be reserved for campaigners and others who do not need to re-enter the camps after the event to move their gear. This should be for people traveling north, while a similar "campaigner parking lot" should be established for folks traveling south.
Anybody have any other suggestions?
-Joe Bordonaro

JoeBordonaro
10-22-2007, 07:47 AM
John,
I figured getting out of the Federal parking area was OK. Doesn't seem like there should be a penalty for norherners portraying Confederates, though!
-Joe Bordonaro

JoeBordonaro
10-22-2007, 07:48 AM
Michael,
I enjoyed the event. It was just that feeling of being in a prison camp that put a sour taste in my mouth after the event!
-Joe Bordonaro

JoeBordonaro
10-22-2007, 07:54 AM
Bill,
I, too, enjoy the Cedar Creek event as a chance to bump into friends and socialize. I just hope that some more thought is put into the logistics of traffic flow. Either that or I'll have to save up enough money and vacation time to take a day off after the event and spend a night in the area after the end of the event so that I won't be in a hurry to get on the road afterwards. Not sure I can swing that, though!
-Joe Bordonaro

billwatson2
10-22-2007, 10:40 AM
Apparently the joy many of us take in a vehicle-free environment is not universally shared. Not even close. Lots of grousing among the folks I was with because cars weren't allowed in camp Saturday morning, late arrivals were seriously inconvenienced. Breakdown in communication, because this is clearly outlined in the event regulations.

Here's a list of violated rules:

-- Consumption of alcoholic beverages and/or the use of illegal drugs are prohibited.

-- All modern items and equipment will be kept out of public view

-- Vehicles are permitted into authentic camping area (note: Everything is considered the authentic camping area) to unload for a maximum of 15 minutes. A parking pass with name and unit must be displayed on the windshield is required for each vehicle to enter the battlefield. No vehicles areallowed in the camp area after 8:00 am Saturday, until after the battle on Sunday.

-- NO FIREPITS. You are reenacting on the actual battlefield. Before the Sunday battle, all
campfires should be out and trash bagged and placed in dumpsters on your way out.

--Civilians must be in period attire if remaining in the camps during the weekend.

These are mentioned not because they were violated (my expectations are well managed and I honestly don't care), but because the folks I talked to didn't even know these rules existed. You can blame that on the unit leaders, I guess, since registration by unit is allowed; no incentive for individual reenactors to read the rules attached to the registration if they think they're getting the information they need to have a good time from unit leaders at various levels. It is just ironic to me that people were incensed because no cars were allowed in camp even though that was the rule, written right on the registration information. So those folks had a different set of expectations about the event than the event organizers. This is where unhappiness begins.

Meanwhile, since some people will get there Saturday morning no matter what and will still want to set up the whole nine yards, how about letting someone with a horse and wagon charge $20 or so to haul them from the parking lot into the camps in a non-modern vehicle? An entrepreneurial opportunity. Disclaimer: I do not own a horse or a wagon.

VaTrooper
10-22-2007, 03:55 PM
The Confederate cavalry was quite good on Saturday. Lots of energy and dash and realistic reaction to the situation. And they got a couple of platoons of federal cavalry completely flummoxed by appearing in their rear after taking advantage of Today's Word, which is "Defilade."


Looked pretty good on Sunday too. But if you had seen us drilling Saturday morning you'd be singing a different tune.

DColeman
10-22-2007, 04:03 PM
I saw something truely unique and IMHO really cool during Sunday's Battle at Cedar Creek.

During the battle in the field in front of the Belle Grove Plantation, the Reb infantry came up the hill en mass and we soon retreated back behind the Vincent’s 1st Regiment. While doing this retreat I caught something out of the corner of my eye and turned to see something I thought was really cool. Our far Left battery ceased fire and the entire gun crew with rammers, worms and other gear in hand all rushed the nearby Reb line. The whole Reb line fired and the entire gun crew went down screaming with gear flying. Awesome!!! :)

clconboy
10-22-2007, 05:52 PM
I saw something truely unique and IMHO really cool during Sunday's Battle at Cedar Creek.

During the battle in the field in front of the Belle Grove Plantation, the Reb infantry came up the hill en mass and we soon retreated back behind the Vincent’s 1st Regiment. While doing this retreat I caught something out of the corner of my eye and turned to see something I thought was really cool. Our far Left battery ceased fire and the entire gun crew with rammers, worms and other gear in hand all rushed the nearby Reb line. The whole Reb line fired and the entire gun crew went down screaming with gear flying. Awesome!!! :)


I don't know Dustin.... perhaps they heard about the "kilt" and just had to end their lives?

Doug Cooper
10-22-2007, 07:28 PM
I saw something truely unique and IMHO really cool during Sunday's Battle at Cedar Creek.

During the battle in the field in front of the Belle Grove Plantation, the Reb infantry came up the hill en mass and we soon retreated back behind the Vincent’s 1st Regiment. While doing this retreat I caught something out of the corner of my eye and turned to see something I thought was really cool. Our far Left battery ceased fire and the entire gun crew with rammers, worms and other gear in hand all rushed the nearby Reb line. The whole Reb line fired and the entire gun crew went down screaming with gear flying. Awesome!!! :)

Unique that must have been...and hopefully it will remain so. The guns mean everything - you fight them till you are shot, captured or retreat, if you can't get them off the field to safety. There is nothing more useless, not to mention inauthentic, then to lose your guns and all get killed in a suicide charge away from the guns. Maybe the commander had just ordered them to "retreat by prolong" and the suicide silliness was a faster, easier way to end their part in the battle. Sheesh.

clconboy
10-22-2007, 08:55 PM
Another thing that I did notice was the complete lack of "hits" by both sides....The Saturday battle was just a shoot out and it seemed that nobody died....it got very ridiculous especially when there was a lull....

"Death" is the most under represented part of the hobby (just kidding...but...)

bulletsponge
10-22-2007, 09:13 PM
Some of the unwillingness to die had more to do with commanders trying to keep numbers up during the whole event. There were plenty of "corpses" around during the final portion of the battle. I'm sure there would be more people "dieing" if some sort of a reserve were available to take up the slack once numbers started dropping.

3rdUSRedleg
10-22-2007, 10:17 PM
Unique that must have been...and hopefully it will remain so. The guns mean everything - you fight them till you are shot, captured or retreat, if you can't get them off the field to safety. There is nothing more useless, not to mention inauthentic, then to lose your guns and all get killed in a suicide charge away from the guns. Maybe the commander had just ordered them to "retreat by prolong" and the suicide silliness was a faster, easier way to end their part in the battle. Sheesh.

Sir;
The Gun in mention was in the far left section of a battery that had been redelpying by prolong after obliquing its left half battery, to oppose the flanking menuver of the confederate clavary and infantry. Upon reaching the crowd and no further to go. I orderd the men to defend the piece with impliments since the safety range was breeched and we could not fire any longer. Some men dropped from skermishers picking them off, others decided to die in such other manner.
Realistic, maybe not, but then again i saw NO confederates taking hits from our hammering there flanks with artillery. Next time maybe you can rephrase your ending, demeaningly useless comment. I take it in very high offence.

clconboy
10-23-2007, 12:25 AM
Some of the unwillingness to die had more to do with commanders trying to keep numbers up during the whole event. There were plenty of "corpses" around during the final portion of the battle. I'm sure there would be more people "dieing" if some sort of a reserve were available to take up the slack once numbers started dropping.


That would be a nice idea....it just looks bad and so unrealistic when volley and volley of decimating blows result in nothing but smoke and a loud hurrah...and I don't care how sugarcoated some people get with "violence" at a family event...but its a war... or to keep numbers......crap happened and people died. oh well its not like one post will change every reenactors stance....

But I have to admit the weather was amazing this weekend and over all a nice event.

bill watson
10-23-2007, 07:42 AM
"There is nothing more useless, not to mention inauthentic, then to lose your guns and all get killed in a suicide charge away from the guns. "


Doug, there was no incentive for or focus on realism at this event, even during the battles. Routed federal troops marched calmly in formation from their overrun camp, in light marching order, pushed by the Confederates from one end of the battlefield to the other, and then back. Captains in charge of 12-man companies could not afford to let their men take hits lest they have no commands. Etc. You know this drill.

But the weather was just unbelievable and the chance to see old friends and make new ones became the salve that heals all offenses to the spirit.

You probably need to manage your expectations to even comment on this thread. :-)

DColeman
10-23-2007, 09:42 AM
Actually I felt bad for the Reb Cav who was thrown from his horse at the beginning of Sunday's battle. Many Yanks cheered unaware that it was HIGHLY unlikely he did it on purpose. I am glad they got control of his horse and he was able to continue.

tompritchett
10-23-2007, 10:33 AM
Actually I felt bad for the Reb Cav who was thrown from his horse at the beginning of Sunday's battle. Many Yanks cheered unaware that it was HIGHLY unlikely he did it on purpose. I am glad they got control of his horse and he was able to continue.

Then he is not the cavalry man that they called the EMT ambulance up for as the Reb infantry was rushing up to flank the Union formation from the South.

Anders
10-23-2007, 11:06 AM
Before each event, one should ask this-

Is the event about history, the public, money or reenactorsims?

And then set expectations accordingly.

Don't go to McDonald's and order a steak, or go to Ruth Chris' and ask for chicken mcnuggets.

Sometimes you can find a steak at IHOP, but it is not nearly as good as one from Mortons.

Food for thought.

TheQM
10-23-2007, 11:14 AM
Apparently the joy many of us take in a vehicle-free environment is not universally shared. Not even close. Lots of grousing among the folks I was with because cars weren't allowed in camp Saturday morning, late arrivals were seriously inconvenienced. Breakdown in communication, because this is clearly outlined in the event regulations.

Here's a list of violated rules:

-- Consumption of alcoholic beverages and/or the use of illegal drugs are prohibited.

-- All modern items and equipment will be kept out of public view

-- Vehicles are permitted into authentic camping area (note: Everything is considered the authentic camping area) to unload for a maximum of 15 minutes. A parking pass with name and unit must be displayed on the windshield is required for each vehicle to enter the battlefield. No vehicles areallowed in the camp area after 8:00 am Saturday, until after the battle on Sunday.

-- NO FIREPITS. You are reenacting on the actual battlefield. Before the Sunday battle, all
campfires should be out and trash bagged and placed in dumpsters on your way out.

--Civilians must be in period attire if remaining in the camps during the weekend.



Bill W.

Something I learned in the modern military was to never issue an order you couldn't or wouldn't enforce. The rule against the consumption of alcoholic beverages is such an order. IMHO, a rule against obvious intoxication and/or rowdy behavior is something that could and more important, should be enforced.

In regard to cars in camp. It seems that rule was enforced in the Confederate camp. While lot of cars were in camp longer than fifteen minutes, they were all gone early Saturday morning. The only vehicles I saw during the weekend were either hauling artillery pieces or selling ice.

I didn't see any firepits in the Confederate camp. Of course, that might be because Rebs don't like to dig holes!

When it come to having modern items in view and civilians in modern attire. Not knowing the rules is an excuse, not a reason. These are things that have to be enforced by the individual units attending the event. You could have a ten foot square sign at the entrance to the event site and it wouldn't make bit of difference.

Doug Cooper
10-23-2007, 01:17 PM
"There is nothing more useless, not to mention inauthentic, then to lose your guns and all get killed in a suicide charge away from the guns. "


Doug, there was no incentive for or focus on realism at this event, even during the battles. Routed federal troops marched calmly in formation from their overrun camp, in light marching order, pushed by the Confederates from one end of the battlefield to the other, and then back. Captains in charge of 12-man companies could not afford to let their men take hits lest they have no commands. Etc. You know this drill.

But the weather was just unbelievable and the chance to see old friends and make new ones became the salve that heals all offenses to the spirit.

You probably need to manage your expectations to even comment on this thread. :-)

Good point. At the end of the day, it is still about the most beautiful place to find yourself on a Saturday afternoon...unless the mining operation eats up all the trees. The super important preservation fight here is reason enough to have the event, but I think we all wish there could be improvement.

I guess I worry most about the safety - traffic safety, early morning drunk reenactors with guns safety, etc. The scariest things I have seen at big events have mostly happened here...due to a lack of enforcement, low avg safety posture (leadership), poor training and troop control, alcohol, the nature of the rocky ground, dawn tactical, non-combatants wandering around on the field (ice ladies, etc) and proximity to spectators.

It would be useful to start a file of these post CC threads. Remarkably similar over the last few years I imagine.

VaTrooper
10-23-2007, 01:34 PM
Actually I felt bad for the Reb Cav who was thrown from his horse at the beginning of Sunday's battle. Many Yanks cheered unaware that it was HIGHLY unlikely he did it on purpose. I am glad they got control of his horse and he was able to continue.

Actually it was a mule which is more than likely why people were laughing.

Altecfive
10-23-2007, 05:02 PM
I would like to let you know that was the brave boys of the 95th who opened that volley and the rider dropped. I have been thrown from horses enough times to know it hurts. Why deploy riders infront of skirmishers is beyond me. As I watched everyone of those horses were jittery and not wanting to move and pacing all about. I would have not wanted to be in their shoes. I will tell you when you looked back from our skirmish line and saw regiment after regiment come online of blue with the artillery back up on the hill it was an incredible site. Although looked more rev war. It was just an errie still that was incredible with the horses infront of us and everyone lined up behind us. It was like time stood still and no one wanted to fire or start the fight. Pretty awe inspirring.

billwatson2
10-23-2007, 05:16 PM
Courtney, did you guys get to rally by fours?

VaTrooper
10-23-2007, 05:16 PM
We matched your skirmish line with our own mounted one with one company in reserve. And it's pretty natural for a horse to prance around before the battle opens up. They know whats about to happen and it's got to be pretty stressful on them. Oh and our infantry boys were right behind the creast of that hill waiting for their turn.

sigman
10-23-2007, 05:46 PM
All in all, Cedar Creek is what your battalion makes of it. For the Mifflin Guard it is our last big battle of the year. We always have a pretty full schedule of activities to augment what organizers have planned. We have a properly aligned camp. We do the roll calls, perform company drill, battalion drill, dress parade, guard, officer or nco meetings, etc. And, giving the boys time to get up to the sutlers, etc. makes for a busy weekend.

Low points this year was seeing some obvious females portraying soldiers. There were a couple of cars in a Federal camp across the way from us Sunday morning. Sunday's battle had a Confederate battalion skirt across our front a mere 25 to 30 yds from us in trying to surround us and not one man dropped.

High points were having a fine camp location, the pleasure of being with your pards on the line, awesome weather. Seems the Confederate turnout was a bit higher than usual. We had four strong battalions on our heals during the Saturday battle. Had the pleasure of seeing the 1st RI boys impressively handle the firing of their guns and actually move them! Being with a cohesive, hard working battalion where everyone strives to do and be his best in support of our organization makes for a fine weekend.

Altecfive
10-23-2007, 09:32 PM
Courtney, did you guys get to rally by fours?

Yes Bill we rallied by fours then and reformed the company as we marched back into the regiment.

Altecfive
10-23-2007, 09:36 PM
We matched your skirmish line with our own mounted one with one company in reserve. And it's pretty natural for a horse to prance around before the battle opens up. They know whats about to happen and it's got to be pretty stressful on them. Oh and our infantry boys were right behind the creast of that hill waiting for their turn.


Yeah I had the pleasure of ridding in battle a few times and the horses do get worked up. I have a high level of respect for the Calvary. Not only is there enough going on in a battle to be aware of, but to control a horse on which you ride is alot of work, considering they do have a mind of their own...hahaha.

Will, I saw the skirmish line coming up behind you. Was that the CMF boys?

Julio C. Zangroniz
10-24-2007, 10:51 AM
As Bill Watson (and others) have pointed out, any event can be good, bad or indifferent, depending on the individual participant's expectations.
Cedar Creek is one of them.
From this photographer's perspective --while looking through the lens, so to speak-- Cedar Creek is a wonderful program and has been so since 1990, when it began. And the bottom line is that every event held there contributes to preserve a real battlefield under serious threat from encroaching development.
When the weather is good, as it was this year --except for a little rain on Friday and some high winds on Saturday-- the Shenandoah Valley is unmatched in beauty. The leaves are changing colors, the mountains are simply majestic, even those rocky, cattle-dropping-strewn grounds are gorgeous, while the skies are as blue as they can get and the cloud formations are stunning. It is simply a beautiful place. On Sunday night, I had to sit down at sunset, as the sun illuminated some cloud formations that took my breath away.
To me, and for many, many others here in the Northeast, Cedar Creek is usually the "last hurrah" of the reenacting season.
As such, it presents a chance to see a lot of friends for perhaps the last time, until many months from now. In my particular case, I don't expect to be documenting any Civil War events again until June 2008, when I may well be doing my very last reenactment, so I want to take time to say a hearty "Thanks!" to the thousands and thousands of reenactors who have shown me so many kindnesses over the last 20 years.
I can assure you, with total sincerity, that I shall truly, truly miss you, individually and as a group, but unfortunately "Life 101" rears its ugly head to take me in other directions.
I am very happy, and proud, to have produced a truly outstanding interactive photo CD at Cedar Creek in 2006 that includes 14 panoramic views, something that no one else has. This year, I brought the Cedar Creek Foundation 40 copies of that CD, all done at my own expense, as well as 600 sets of four postcards that they displayed on a sales rack I provided, so they could sell the stuff and raise additional funds for the preservation of that wonderful battlefield.
With a little bit of luck, the panoramics I shot this year (I haven't even looked at them yet) and a lot of the stills will enable me and a business partner to do yet another interactive Photo CD that the CCBF will be able to offer to visitors and participants next year. That, folks, explains rather succintly why I do what I do in the fields of reenacting.
I had to live through the experience of losing a country, and an entire culture, before I came to the United States (legally, I might add!) and learn to appreciate how important one's cultural heritage is. And I wish that more native-born folks learned that simple lesson and devoted a little more time and resources to helping out.
In any case, God bless America. It is, without a doubt, the greatest single nation on this entire planet, and I'm mighty proud to be part of it.
In another week or so, I expect to have a few hundred images from Cedar Creek online, and with the cooperation of the moderators of this forum, I will post a message when they are ready for you to look at them.
Thank you, one and all. For everything.
Julio

drummerva
10-24-2007, 12:55 PM
...Low points this year was seeing some obvious females portraying soldiers.

I liked the observation my wife made.

"If the women are going to portray soldiers, don't you think they should at least refrain from holding hands with their husbands?"

Sure enough, there were two "soldiers" walking by hand in hand. :rolleyes:

Ephraim_Zook
10-24-2007, 02:43 PM
Julio,

When we talked about your impending withdrawl from the reenacting world I admit to being surprised, but I'm also understanding given the imbalance between the hours you put in and compensation gained. You've been a fixture at so many events that it's hard to think of one without you being there. While I guess it's a good thing to prepare us, it seems like it's mighty early for the announcement. Oh well.

Please let your protégé / replacement know that my welcome mat will be out as it was for you. I'm sure we'll see you once or twice more before your "retirement".

warm regards
Ron

JoeBordonaro
10-24-2007, 06:36 PM
Julio,
I'll really miss seeing you and talking with you at events. Someone else may do your work, but you'll never be replaced.
-Joe Bordonaro

captdougofky
10-24-2007, 11:42 PM
Unique that must have been...and hopefully it will remain so. The guns mean everything - you fight them till you are shot, captured or retreat, if you can't get them off the field to safety. There is nothing more useless, not to mention inauthentic, then to lose your guns and all get killed in a suicide charge away from the guns. Maybe the commander had just ordered them to "retreat by prolong" and the suicide silliness was a faster, easier way to end their part in the battle. Sheesh.

Rick

I'll shoot beside you anytime, I have a PM from him that was not any kinder. Mine was a result of comments I made about Perryville. I was the only CS gun there this year.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons Battery CS
Kentucky

3rdUSRedleg
10-25-2007, 12:12 AM
Rick

I'll shoot beside you anytime, I have a PM from him that was not any kinder. Mine was a result of comments I made about Perryville. I was the only CS gun there this year.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons Battery CS
Kentucky


Sir;
Thank You fellow redlegs. I dont expect an apology. I consider it a dead subject and sarcastic, ignorant for the responce, and a waste of web space, nothing more.
Ive experienced it all, live fired, drove mounted, forged barrels and iron, made carrages and limbers, made rounds, and reenacted campaigner, and mainstream. I always strive to learn more, and not to be a smart a%$ to others, but sometimes you must draw the line.

captdougofky
10-25-2007, 12:24 AM
Sir;
Thank You fellow redlegs. I dont expect an apology. I consider it a dead subject and sarcastic, ignorant for the responce, and a waste of web space, nothing more.
Ive experienced it all, live fired, drove mounted, forged barrels and iron, made carrages and limbers, made rounds, and reenacted campaigner, and mainstream. I always strive to learn more, and not to be a smart a%$ to others, but sometimes you must draw the line.

Rick

One need only look at the Perryville thread to see how I was treated. Artillery Then, Artillery Now, Artillery Forever. Reload.
Always
Doug Thomas

Julio C. Zangroniz
10-25-2007, 06:26 AM
Ron & Joe,
Thanks for the kind words.
As I said earlier, I will truly miss the wonderful world of Civil War reenacting, and I say that without the slightest hint of sarcasm.
For it is a world chock full of truly wonderful human beings, most of whom engage in this pastime with very noble objectives.
For instance, just this past weekend, a reenactor from New Jersey brought me a bunch of Cuban sandwiches, a huge dish of chicken and rice, a platter of roast pork and other Cuban delicacies. Another reenactor, a very attractive young woman from Pennsylvania, brought me a superbly delicious home-made apple pie... and thanks to them, I actually left Cedar Creek with more food than I brought in.
I started to draw up a list of individuals who I wanted to thank by name, but gave up because I realized that, no matter how much time I spent at it, I would leave a lot of worthy names out and I don't want to risk insulting anyone.
Instead, I issued a "generic" farewell. I hope you (you all) can forgive me for that.
Also, please keep in mind that, more than likely, I won't have to move elsewhere, so I should remain close enough to attend some CW events from time to time. I expect to be at the CW School of Music at Pamplin Park in June, and at the Chris Anders Gettysburg extravaganza, where I hope to compile another Event Photo CD for the organizers.
And there's a good chance that Cedar Creek might use some of its magic spell to get me to come out for the entire weekend, as well as Remembrance Day in Gettysburg.
The torch is indeed passing on, but it will be a slow and gradual handoff, and I sure hope that the recipient can continue to serve this community the way it deserves.
But I simply cannot continue to attend and photograph a couple of dozen events each year, as I have done for the past 20 years or so, if I don't have the income to meet my most basic expenses. It's harsh mathematics, so I have to seek photographic assignments that actually pay, such as weddings, individual and family portraits, real estate virtual tours, etc., and practically every one of those are in conflict with reenactments, because that work has to be done on weekends, when the reenactments take place.
I wish it were different, but it is what it is.
Again, thanks for your support and friendship.
Julio

Forquer
10-25-2007, 03:25 PM
Sir;
Thank You fellow redlegs. I dont expect an apology. I consider it a dead subject and sarcastic, ignorant for the responce, and a waste of web space, nothing more.
Ive experienced it all, live fired, drove mounted, forged barrels and iron, made carrages and limbers, made rounds, and reenacted campaigner, and mainstream. I always strive to learn more, and not to be a smart a%$ to others, but sometimes you must draw the line.

Rick -

You know where I stand on a lot of issues on the artillery side of things. While Doug could have presented his comments with a little more tact, the gist of it is that the yay-hooism that was displayed in the form of the banzai charge should not have been allowed to occur. I wasn't there to see it, but it probably would have made me wince, as well (maybe even start turning the air lots of pretty colors! :D )

Once "hitting the wall," so to speak, when reaching the taters and faced with nowhere else to go, it may have been more prudent to go through the motions of spiking the piece, have a couple of individuals take hits around the piece and limber to warn off the opponents if they get too close to certain things, and have the balance of the detachment skedaddle, taking implements with them. The Boys of '61-'65 would fight the guns to the last possible moment but, when push came to shove, the armies of both sides would much rather replace a lost gun than personnel and horses. Lots of instances where the traces were cut.

The trick is to get our fellow Redlegs to think like artillerists for a weekend instead of a bunch of overgrown noisemakers.

Tyring to build the better Artillerist, one man at a time.......

YOS,

3rdUSRedleg
10-25-2007, 04:08 PM
Once "hitting the wall," so to speak, when reaching the taters and faced with nowhere else to go, it may have been more prudent to go through the motions of spiking the piece, have a couple of individuals take hits around the piece and limber to warn off the opponents if they get too close to certain things, and have the balance of the detachment skedaddle, taking implements with them. YOS,

Heyyyy Greg, Good to Hear From Ya!!:D
The Section was spiked, yes, men dropped all around the guns while some were attempting to "fakingly" remove the limbers to the rear(with no where else to go), the men who decided to charge was only a few and was enguaged 20 feet infront of the guns. I did not give specific details in the other posts. I felt there was no need to and If it would have been anyone else but you posting here, rephrasing the subject, I still would have not. Im just sick of the crap and felt compelled to respond (first post).

Pvt Schnapps
10-26-2007, 08:56 AM
Getting back, briefly, to Joe's original complaint about traffic management, I should mention what I forgot to say earlier -- I agree with him.

I had a lot of fun at Cedar Creek -- FWIW, I posted my AAR at: http://commonground.aceboard.com/249612-4910-4728-0-Last-weekend-Cedar-Creek.htm

Still, there are problems that would be easy enough to fix if anyone cared. A cop stationed in the area of the Quik-e-mart adjoining the battlefield, for example, would avoid some of the most blatant booze importation. But real discipline will remain in our hands, so if we see something that strikes us as unsafe or at least ill-advised, we need to say something to our chain of command, even if that means, in some cases, confronting said chain with their own lapses.

Beyond that, the organizers can surely do a better job with traffic management. True, they have only so many lots to work with, and just the one main road, but the situation becomes much worse when you hold the main battle Sunday at 2 and then unleash everyone en masse shortly after three -- spectators to go home, and reenactors to get their cars, re-enter camp, load up, and then attempt to go home, most of which involves crossing or driving on that same main road. I don't mind so much because I live pretty much in the area, but it's got to be a real problem for folks coming from New York, New Jersey, North Carolina, etc.

I saw a lot of folks pack up and leave in the morning rather than wait for the afternoon jam, and I know of other folks who left the battle early to get a jump on traffic. Besides the parking improvements Joe mentions, maybe the organizers could move the battle to one and have more activities after the battle to beguile the spectators while we get on the road.

Or maybe, having got our fees, they don't mind if half the army leaves early. That would be a shame. I suspect it's not the case, but the impression is easy enough to draw from the experience. I already noticed a drop off in attendance from previous years, and I wouldn't be surprised if part of it had to do with the increasing hassle of attending this event, combined with the suspicion that those with the power to change it don't really care.

JoeBordonaro
10-26-2007, 03:08 PM
Michael,
Thanks for returning the discussion, if only briefly, to the traffic management problems at the end of the Cedar Creek event. I agree that there are improvements which could be made. I think having the battle end at 1 with other activites scheduled to entertain the spectators (local rock band?) to keep them from leaving immediately so as to give the reenactors time to get on the road. Remember, folks, while it is a priviledge and an honor to reenact on the actual battlefield, we are also providing a service to the Cedar Creek Battlefield Foundation. They must raise a good deal of money at these reenactments and they couldn't do it without us. They can afford to ignore me, but they can't afford to ignore all of us. Is there anybody reading this who can organize an online petition and present it to the Foundation?
-Joe Bordonaro

billwatson2
10-26-2007, 03:40 PM
You're forgetting church. Go to church, home at noon for the meal, then go to the event. Can't expect tators to forego lunch. I'd very much suspect the 2 p.m. time was chosen exactly for this reason.

:D

TheQM
10-26-2007, 03:46 PM
Guys,

Actually it was pretty easy leaving the Cedar Creek battlefield on Sunday. After the battle, I went back to camp, took a cold one from the cooler and relaxed for half an hour. I then got busy and packed everything up. I walked over to the parking lot, got the car and drove it back to where I had been camped. Loaded my stuff in the car and headed for home. No sweat, no stress.

The traffic jambs would be eliminated if everybody didn't have this mad desire to be the first one on the road at the end of the event. Chill out, the only thing waiting for you, when you get home, is another day on the job.

tompritchett
10-26-2007, 05:50 PM
However, I suspect that the lower Yankee numbers may have been due to those that left early because of their longer drives or because of car pooling. I know that, because of stopping for a buffet supper and dropping two other members that car pooled with me, I did not get home until after midnight. I can imagine what it would have been for someone from Western PA or Northern NY.

TheQM
10-26-2007, 06:35 PM
I know that, because of stopping for a buffet supper and dropping two other members that car pooled with me, I did not get home until after midnight.

Tom,

That must have been one heck of a buffet. I was the last one out of our camp and was was home by 10:00 PM. (11:00 PM your time.)

JoeBordonaro
10-26-2007, 06:50 PM
Bill,
Did you leave from the Union parking lot or the Confederate parking lot? The Confederate parking lot was the real problem. They had the exit locked and the line going up to the entrance was at a standstill because the police were holding it until the other lots were emptied. It felt like being in prison.
-Joe Bordonaro

TheQM
10-26-2007, 07:26 PM
Bill,
Did you leave from the Union parking lot or the Confederate parking lot? .


Joe,

I walked over to the Confederate parking lot behind the Cedar Creek admin building about a hour or maybe a little longer after the event ended and had no wait at all. We had civilians from the unit who went to get their cars before the scenario was over and they waited a hour or more to get out of the parking lot.

Life is good if you drink a beer and relax. (That might be a motto to live by!)

tompritchett
10-26-2007, 11:35 PM
That must have been one heck of a buffet. I was the last one out of our camp and was was home by 10:00 PM. (11:00 PM your time.)

About 45 minutes, time to get gas (the attendant could not get the pump to switch on after I prepaid - 20 minutes lost there) and I had to go almost to Neshimany to drop off one of my car pool members. Things add up.

JoeBordonaro
10-27-2007, 08:44 AM
Bill,
If I had known they were going to lock the exit I would've waited, too. Not knowing how long the lockdown was going to last made it very frustrating. It still doesn't seem like a good way to treat visitors. It also seems like a potential safety hazard if there had been someone in that lot with a medical emergency. The exit was chained shut and no one was alllowed out of the entrance. The line heading out to the entrance was packed and there would've been no way for them to back out of the way of an ambulance trying to get through.
-Joe Bordonaro

Ephraim_Zook
10-27-2007, 08:47 AM
Michael,


Still, there are problems that would be easy enough to fix if anyone cared... But real discipline will remain in our hands, so if we see something that strikes us as unsafe or at least ill-advised, we need to say something to our chain of command, even if that means, in some cases, confronting said chain with their own lapses.
Of course this has been said many times. There was a great brouhaha over this 3 or 4 years ago, with people suggesting that more egregious practices should be called to the attention of the military commands when the military commands themselves were the perpetrators.

A cop stationed in the area of the Quik-e-mart adjoining the battlefield, for example, would avoid some of the most blatant booze importation. Only if the Commonwealth of Virginia (or the local municipality) would make it illegal to remove booze from the premises -- unlikely in the case of a retail establishment.

TheQM
10-27-2007, 03:14 PM
Bill,
If I had known they were going to lock the exit I would've waited, too.

Joe,

Locking the gate doesn't make much sense. The mad rush for the parking lots doesn't make much sense either. If you live two or three hours from the event, is getting home a hour earlier really that important?

Rather than trying to come up with something to keep the spectators on site after the reenactment. Doesn't it make more sense to let the spectators clear the area and then open the roads for the reenactors? After all, we have things we could be doing, like packing up, saying good-bye to our friends, relaxing with a cool brew or just taking a snooze for half an hour.

If you're a campaigner and have nothing to pack. Walk to the parking lot, put your seat back and take a nap. The world will turn and you will drive home well rested and with lower blood pressure.

I understand that some people have a long distance to travel. Is there really a big difference in getting home ten hours after the event or eleven hours after the event?

I gave up fighting the parking lot crowds years ago. Single best thing I ever did for my sanity, blood pressure, and enjoyment of the bigger events.

JoeBordonaro
10-27-2007, 04:08 PM
Bill,
I was traveling campaigner-style to the event. I was facing a five hour drive home, minimum. I felt I had the right to walk off the battlefield, hop in my car and get on my way. Since no one but me seems to see anything wrong with locking the only exit to a reenactor parking lot my plan is to drive to the event early on Saturday (unless I can get Friday off of work, in which case I'd drive down Friday afternoon) and leave after dinner with my unit on the field on Saturday. Then no one will have to read about my complaints about being made a prisoner for having committed the crime of wanting to leave an event after it's over. I'm not much on beer drinking, especially before driving. Even one beer would impair me, being on the small side and not being habituated to alcohol.
-Joe Bordonaro

Remise
10-27-2007, 05:36 PM
Bill,
I was traveling campaigner-style to the event. I was facing a five hour drive home, minimum. I felt I had the right to walk off the battlefield, hop in my car and get on my way. Since no one but me seems to see anything wrong with locking the only exit to a reenactor parking lot my plan is to drive to the event early on Saturday (unless I can get Friday off of work, in which case I'd drive down Friday afternoon) and leave after dinner with my unit on the field on Saturday. Then no one will have to read about my complaints about being made a prisoner for having committed the crime of wanting to leave an event after it's over. I'm not much on beer drinking, especially before driving. Even one beer would impair me, being on the small side and not being habituated to alcohol.
-Joe Bordonaro

Joe --

Just for the record, I agree with you on this. I haven't posted anything because this year I didn't go to Cedar Creek. I do remember one year being a spectator at Gettysburg, and spending five hours after the event in the parking lot. As I was finally leaving, I saw a group of enterprising Federals pulling a fencepost out of the ground, as part of their attempt to create a second exit.

When people do the same event year after year after year, you would think they would give a little thought to simple things such as more efficient entry and egress plans. Maybe the Cedar Creek people should visit a college football stadium or a Renaissance festival sometime, just to see how it is done.

B.C. Milligan
Company K, First Penna. Reserves

TheQM
10-27-2007, 05:53 PM
Bill,
I was traveling campaigner-style to the event. I was facing a five hour drive home, minimum. I felt I had the right to walk off the battlefield, hop in my car and get on my way.

Joe,

I don't agree with locking the reenactor parking lot, I also wasn't suggesting that we have a beer bash before heading home. The pure facts of the matter is there is only one road out of the site, route 11, and thousands of vehicles are going to be on that single road. No matter how you cut the mustard, that road will carry only so many cars.

Doesn't it make sense to allow the spectators to clear the road before allowing the reenactors access to a road that will only hold so many vehicles? You may think that you have the right to walk off the the battlefield, hop in your car and get on your way, but the laws concerning X amount of road versus Y amount of vehicles is likely to screw up those rights. A nice nap in the parking lot would have made for a much safer trip home and lowered your blood pressure.

Oh yeah, my trip home was a hour and a half shorter then yours, and I didn't sit in any traffic jambs.

JoeBordonaro
10-27-2007, 11:21 PM
Bruce,
Thanks for adding your voice to the discussion. It looks as though the organizers don't have to worry about trying to make any improvements, though.
-Joe Bordonaro

TheQM
10-28-2007, 01:39 AM
Guys,

Route 11 is a two lane road that runs through the Cedar Creek battlefield. The saved battlefield and reenactment site is on one side of the road. There are three parking lots on the other side of the road. One each for Confederates, Yankees, and Spectators. At the conclusion of the event on Sunday, everybody wants to go home at the exact same time. It seems you feel that we reenactors have a God given right to walk over to the parking lots, jump in our cars and head for home. What are your ideas for making that possible? I'm sure the Cedar Creek Committee would be all ears.

tompritchett
10-28-2007, 02:00 AM
I don't agree with locking the reenactor parking lot,

Actually, my wife hoteled it and we found that the parking lot "exit" was locked for the whole event until the very end. As far as activities while waiting, I always like to field clean my weapon before it goes into the car. This season I have been burned by attending as a guest to several events where the hosts did not share that priority and doused the fire before the end of the event and in at least two cases while we were actually out in the battle. At at least two of those events, because we had new members with loaner rifles, I ended up having to clean up to 3 muskets when I got home - something I did not always have time to do that same evening. Needless to say now I have a lot of work to do in the off season to get out the rust that built up as result of those events.

JoeBordonaro
10-28-2007, 09:09 AM
Bill,
If you look back through this thread you will see two posts I made suggesting changes to traffic management. The first batch of suggestions was posted about three posts after my original post, on page one. And, no, I don't feel I have a "God-given right to hop in my car after the event and leave". I do feel I have the age-old perogative of the common soldier to gripe. However, it has become abundantly clear to me that few, if any, attendees share my outrage at the locking of the only exit to the Confederate parking lot. I have already decided what to do next year- attend on Saturday only. To each his own.
-Joe Bordonaro

Poor Private
10-28-2007, 10:17 AM
Joe;
Yes you do have the right to leave any event , at any time. After all this is a hobby not your profession. And you are NOT in the military so they can't force you to stay. I have left a couple of events early when I perceived that this is not what was advertised, or a serious problem or issue came up. Are they trying to keep you captive by locking the parking lot gate? If you got to go, you got to go.

bill watson
10-28-2007, 10:26 AM
"They had the exit locked and the line going up to the entrance was at a standstill because the police were holding it until the other lots were emptied. It felt like being in prison."



I'm just wondering if this is what happened or whether it's just what looked like what happened.

Here's why: I'm at a loss to think of a reason why they'd put a padlock on a gate if there were police present to direct traffic.

Or were there two gates, one the entrance and the other a secondary exit? I'm not clear here. My fault, I'm sure, but partly based on the federal parking, which was open and ample all weekend, cars coming and going all the time. The entrance was right across from the little market, right at the corner of the federal artillery camp.


We've assumed there was a plan in place here. What if it was a mistake or mischief? We've got vandalism taking place up here in the Poconos on the site of a proposed rich-man's sports car track. I'm sure this is not the only area where local folks resent having their town taken over by strangers. If the end result of putting the padlock on a gate was to very much annoy hundreds of people, why are we assuming that is something the CCBF would do as opposed to something that someone who doesn't like us would do? And are our comments about avoiding a traffic surge just us trying to come up with a plausible reason for this?

It has never been done before.

There has never really been a problem getting out of the event. The Interstate 81 entrance is so close that the relatively spaced out exodus from Cedar Creek battlefield is easily absorbed. We got out while many of those in camp still had an hour's work ahead of them packing up all their stuff; the only "jam" was at the local gas station.

I'm just sayin'.

tompritchett
10-28-2007, 11:29 AM
Or were there two gates, one the entrance and the other a secondary exit?

Yes, that is a better description as the the "exit" was locked throughout the event until the very end. According to my wife, who was staying at a hotel, the first time it was unlocked during the whole event was after the Sunday battle. Another of our civilians was at the gate at the time that it was finely unlocked. As to the reasons for why this gate remained locked during the event, I have no clue.

TheQM
10-28-2007, 05:17 PM
Bill, I do feel I have the age-old perogative of the common soldier to gripe. However, it has become abundantly clear to me that few, if any, attendees share my outrage at the locking of the only exit to the Confederate parking lot.

Joe,

I think I'm understanding the problem. For want of a better term, there's a back door and front door at the Confederate parking lot. The front door is right next to the Cedar Creek Visitor Center The back door takes you to a road that connects with Route 11 about 100 yards south of the Visitor Center. When you entered the parking lot on Friday, the entrance was the front door next to the Visitor Center. They had people there to check for parking passes. It makes sense that they would have the back door locked to keep unregistered people from sneaking into the parking lot.

In the past, we had to leave the parking lot from the back door, but this year, when I got my car, I left from the front door. They had an entrance open directly across the road that took you to the Confederate camp. This worked great for those of us who had to get back into the camp to pick up our stuff. It would not work so well for those of you who packed your stuff out.

On that front entrance, I don't remember a gate they could have locked if they wanted to, but I could be wrong about that. I wan't paying much attention.

It's my guess the police would hold up people going into the Confederate camp to allow the spectators to head south on Route 11. Of course, I could be wrong about that, since the spectators were long gone by the time I went over to get my car.

hiplainsyank
10-28-2007, 05:52 PM
I'm trying to understand before I comment further. Was there only one way to exit from the CS parking lot? It is to say that once one's car was in that lot, there was no way for them to get out? Or could people have gotten out of the lot by going the way they came in?

If there was no way out, then that is a major problem in my thinking. First of all, what if someone attending had a family emergency and HAD to go. Second, people who work on Sundays, or who have other church or family obligations on Sundays (sing in the choir, teach Sunday School, always have Sunday dinner with Mom, etc.) often enough attend reenactments for Fri.-Sat.

If there was no other way out, then wasn't some sort of law broken?

TheQM
10-28-2007, 06:43 PM
If there was no other way out, then wasn't some sort of law broken?

Joanna,

Since the local police were controlling the traffic movement on Route 11, I doubt many laws were broken. If the traffic could have been handled differently or more efficiently is another question.

Rob Weaver
10-28-2007, 09:07 PM
Since I often have to leave events after Saturday evening (to preach on Sunday at home) I live in mortal fear of NOT being able to get my car out. Either being parked in or locked in on Saturday night would present me a very difficult problem indeed.

Ephraim_Zook
10-29-2007, 08:22 AM
I was in the Fed parking lot so I didn't encounter the locked Confederate lot, but let me ask an obvious question -- has anyone written to Suzanne Chilson at the Battlefield Foundation and asked her if she had any idea what was happening and why? It would be good to get an official answer if possible instead of lots of speculation. It would also alert the foundation folks to a potential problem that they might have been unaware of.

regards

billwatson2
10-29-2007, 12:08 PM
There you go again, being reasonable. :D

JoeBordonaro
10-29-2007, 03:07 PM
Bill,
Here's the deal: The exit gate was closed and locked with a chain and lock. The entrance was open, and that was how people were trying to leave the lot, but no one was being allowed to leave the lot. The line didn't move an inch for the whole time I was there, about 40 minutes. It really did feel like I was in prison. I finally got out when someone removed the gate from the exit by lifting it off of its hinges. I'm not sure how long it was after that when the police started letting people exit through the entrance. I was gone.
-Joe Bordonaro

JoeBordonaro
10-29-2007, 03:13 PM
Ron,
A friendly native, seeing me by the locked exit, called the Cedar Creek Foundation. First they told them that they'd be there to unlock the gate. About 15 minutes later my local friend called again and were told that the police were not permitting anyone to leave the Confederate lot until "the other lots were empty".
-Joe Bordonaro

Memphis
10-29-2007, 05:37 PM
When the events are so bad they have to lock-in the reenactors to prevent them from leaving....

Just kidding, but the thought has come to mind a few times while reading this thread.

TheQM
10-29-2007, 06:08 PM
Ron,
About 15 minutes later my local friend called again and were told that the police were not permitting anyone to leave the Confederate lot until "the other lots were empty".

Joe,

Perhaps, the Cedar Creek Foundation or the Middletown Police could confirm this, but I'd bet they specifically didn't want reenactors to use that back gate to leave the Confederate parking lot. Especially after they went to the trouble of putting in that new entrance to the Confederate camp directly across from the parking lot entrance on Route 11.

There's only a limited number of police for traffic control. Opening that back gate meant there was just one more access road open to Route 11; that, from their perspective, would require traffic control and more officers. Since Route 11 is a public road, I doubt the Cedar Creek Foundation has much control over police activities and/or traffic control.

Not allowing any cars to cross Route 11 until the spectator lots were clear was probably not a good plan. Fact is, since the parking lots are all on the opposite side of the road from the reenactment site, there doesn't seem to be a good plan, except to do what I do and just give the roads an hour to empty out a little.

JoeBordonaro
10-29-2007, 09:47 PM
Bill,
There was a sign in the parking lot directing you to the locked exit, so I don't think they had intended for there to be no exit there. Last year the exit was there and it was unlocked all weekend.
-Joe Bordonaro

JoeBordonaro
10-30-2007, 07:02 PM
Joanna,
The exit was locked all weekend, but the entrance was open. So you could leave any time you wanted to until some time before the event ended on Sunday. Then a policeman was stationed to prevent people from leaving through the entrance. The exit remained locked. So, at that point, you could not leave the parking lot.
-Joe Bordonaro

JoeBordonaro
10-31-2007, 07:58 AM
Roger,
You have a point, but personally I do not care to let the people temporarily in charge of the place to dissuade me from going and enjoying the beauty of Cedar Creek, the pleasure of seeing old friends, and the honor of participating in a reenactment of the battle on the actual battlefield.
-Joe Bordonaro

TheQM
11-01-2007, 08:54 AM
Bill, last year the exit was there and it was unlocked all weekend.

Joe,

We've pretty well beaten this subject to death. Like you, I'm a long time Cedar Creek attentee. Always as a Confederate. During those years, I've seen every just about every permutation of possible traffic movement out of the Confederate Parking lot and back into the Confederate camps at the conclusion of the event. The last time I tried to make a fast exit from the event, they were using the back gate only and that was also a total "Charlie Foxtrot"

The biggest problem is that Cedar Creek is a mainstream event and the majority of the attendees need to get back into camp to pick up their gear. I understand this makes it difficult for people who carried their stuff in and just want to go home.

I may have a possible solution. Open the back gate for people who do not need to get back into the camps, but only allow them to go south on Route 11, away from the site. About four miles south, you can connect with Route 81. Use the front gate for people who have to get back to camp and retain the new one-way entrance into the camps. That worked well.

Of course, this won't help much if the police won't allow access to Route 11 until after the Spectator Parking lot is clear. Interesting thought. I wonder how many of the spectators live in the area and are voters?

JoeBordonaro
11-01-2007, 11:09 AM
Bill,
I think your idea of opening up the side exit and allowing those people to turn left to go south onto Rt 11 is an excellent suggestion. A large sign posted near the exit should do the trick. The police car posted a little further down on Rt 11 could easily be repositioned to prevent non-residents from making a right onto Rt. 11 from that side street. I also think your final observation is an interesting one.
-Joe

TheQM
11-05-2007, 06:42 PM
Joe,

I was at an event with a mutual friend this weekend. He commented that the two of us managed to have the most boring argument in the history of the Reenactor's Forum. Five or ten posts back and forth and we never once questioned each other's manhood and/or reenacting style. To make matters worse, we actually came to, more or less, an agreement.

Memphis
11-05-2007, 07:03 PM
Obviously, you two fellows need to attend the School of the Keyboard Campaigner. :D

JoeBordonaro
11-06-2007, 07:46 PM
Bill,
Yeah, I was quite proud of our exchange, actually, boring as it must've been to the general reader :)
-Joe

Huck Finn
11-06-2007, 10:59 PM
Gentlemen:

It has been quite nice to observe a rational discourse. What is most interesting is the noticeable understanding of an issue, a suggestion or two, and the hope the feedback gets to the Cedar Creek folks.

Another nicety is that there is a certain resolve that Cedar Creek is, well, Cedar Creek. No sense butchering an event if you did not go or did not want to go. If you went with higher expectations, whoops. As with any hobby, do your homework. If you went and had fun, you succeeded.

Events must be measured on their own merit. We can cross lines and have fun. The big bad c/p/h'ers are neither and the mainstream is what you make of it. As I have stated before, go and have fun. That is what a diversion is for.

Good thread.