Fencing Bayonet

[jerryeberg]

Does anyone know a good place to get a reproduction fencing bayonet like the one in the link?
http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/1862a.JPG

[Frenchie]

That's a standard bayonet with a special scabbard that locks onto the shank and has a ball on the end. You're looking for a scabbard, not a bayonet. Sorry, I have no leads.

[WoodenNutmeg]

I recall looking for one sometime ago as well and to the best of my knowledge there is still no reproduction of this item that has been made available.

Bryan O'Keefe, Esquire

[WestTN_reb]

You could always make a plastron. All you need is a whale bone.:rolleyes:

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

That's a standard bayonet with a special scabbard that locks onto the shank and has a ball on the end. You're looking for a scabbard, not a bayonet. Sorry, I have no leads.

Frenchie,

What lead to your conclusion that this was a "standard" bayonet with a "special" scabbard?

Paul

[tompritchett]

What lead to your conclusion that this was a "standard" bayonet with a "special" scabbard?
Look closely at the closeup at the bottom of the picture. You will see the clip for locking it into the frog as well as the clip that locks the scabbard onto the bayonet.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Look closely at the closeup at the bottom of the picture. You will see the clip for locking it into the frog as well as the clip that locks the scabbard onto the bayonet.

Tom,

I am aware that the picture shows a clip for the item to be worn on the frog, but I was under the belief that the plastron (which this presumably is), was made especially for training, and was to be used in place of the bayonet.

I failed to see any sort of "clip" for locking the "scabbard" onto the bayonet. [Edit- In looking at the patent for this scabbard...contained in a post further down, a "strap" is evident for the attachment of the scabbard to the bayonet, this does not appear to be a "clip"-P.B.]

Paul

[Longbranch 1]

Sirs,

The confusion may be the result of Bayonet ,Fencing
patented by John Ernst
Aug o5 1862 . patent # 36081

This is a removable bayonet guard composed of an elastic ball fitted to a hard material with a flange to recieve a strap. The guard is attached to the bayonet by means of said strap.

The illustration appears to be of the item below:

Mr Ernst patented a ( Different )Bayonet Fencing Scabbard
( Patent # 37,222) Dec. 23, 1862.
More truly a scabbard.
" Fitting closely around the neck of the bayonet and against the shoulder of the blade was an elongated link or ring, one end ofwhich was attached to a spring secured within the scabbard. To the lower endof the scabbard was secured, by a socket, a ball of India rubber or other elastic material, which constituted a guard for the point of the bayonet."

See Lord's Civil War Collector's Encyclopedia, Vol I

I don't think we will find a repro of these items anytime soon .

Hope to have helped.
Kevin Ellis

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Sirs,

The iilustration is of Bayonet ,Fencing
patented by John Ernst Aug o5 1862 . patent # 36081

This is a removable bayonet guard composed of an elastic ball fitted to a hard material with a flange to recieve a strap. The guard is attached to the bayonet by means of said strap.

Frenchie is , I believe alluding to the item below:

Mr Ernst patented a ( Different )Bayonet Fencing Scabbard
( Patent # 37,222) Dec. 23, 1862.
More truly a scabbard.
" Fitting closely around the neck of the bayonet and against the shoulder of the bladewas an elongated link or ring, one end ofwhich was attached to a spring secured within the scabbard. To the lower endof the scabbard was secured, by a socket, a ball of India rubber or other elastic material, which constituted a guard for the point of the bayonet."

See Lord's Civil War Collector's Encyclopedia, Vol I

I don't think we will find a repro of these items anytime soon .

Hope to have helped.
Kevin Ellis

Kevin,

Thanks for the information. In looking up the second patent you listed (google patents), the sketch clarifies the use of a "spring clip". This Patent # 37,222 is definently a scabbard type attachment. Below you will find the google-patent site for this "Improvement in Bayonet Scabbard and Guards".

http://www.google.com/patents?id=iQMAAAAAEBAJ&dq=37,222&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=1&as_miny_is=1850&as_maxm_is=1&as_maxy_is=1866

If the first sketch shown is indeed Patent # 36,081 then it too will be a "scabbard-like" attachment as Frenchie mentioned. The Patent for this, "Improvement in Removable Bayonet Guards", can be found through the following link, also using google patents:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=g5BwAAAAEBAJ&dq=36,081

So where does the term and use of a "plastron" come in...and the use of whalebone (under which a few of us had heard)? It may be possible this comes from McClellan's Manual for the Bayonet...will check tonight and try to provide some clarification.

Humbly,

Paul

[tompritchett]

I failed to see any sort of "clip" for locking the "scabbard" onto the bayonet.

Look to the right of the clip for the frog and you will see a semi-triangular clip with its base at the top of the scabbard and the "point" of the clip around the base of the bayonet as it connects to the bayonet socket.

[tompritchett]

Kevin,

Thanks for the information. In looking up the second patent you listed (google patents), the sketch clarifies the use of a "spring clip". This Patent # 37,222 is definently a scabbard type attachment. Below you will find the google-patent site for this "Improvement in Bayonet Scabbard and Guards".

http://www.google.com/patents?id=iQM...maxy_is= 1866

Looking at the closeup of the original diagram and the blowup of this patent, it appears that this is the design that was depicted in the illustration.

[Longbranch 1]

Tom,

Flipping through Vol.II of Lord's, I found a couple of examples (Pg. 91)
Now that's a unique bit of engineering, but it seems to me that using it would be a quick way to abuse your weapon and degrade its effectiveness.

I would love to see a repro or 2 of these in the field.
But of course, if repros were available, they would soon be WAY over-represented.

Thanks,
Kevin Ellis

[Ephraim_Zook]

The American Training Bayonet 1858-1912
Pictures from American Bayonets 1776-1964 by A.N. Hardin, Jr.
http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/bayonet.html

A whalebone bayonet:
http://www.usregulars.com/Bayonet_files/Figs56thru58.jpg

The plastron, by the way, is a form of body armor worn during bayonet training. Think modern fencing protection.

edited to fix a bad link

[WestTN_reb]

So where does the term and use of a "plastron" come in...and the use of whalebone (under which a few of us had heard)? It may be possible this comes from McClellan's Manual for the Bayonet...will check tonight and try to provide some clarification.

Humbly,

Paul
Unless I'm mistaken, it comes from Gillam's. I could be wrong about the source. I'll have to dig around to find it, but I have a diagram of a plastron. If memory serves, it is basically a bayonet socket with a slot. A whale bone that has been soaked in vinegar is inserted into the slot and a screw used to tighten it in place. They were supposed to be used for fencing because the vinegar soaked whale bone will bend like rubber.

[PvtMudflap]

The American Bayonet and Epee Company
Williamsburg OH
Artimis Bodine, Prop.
440-572-5900
www.whipitout.com

Open 9:00 AM TO 10:15 EST
Wednesday and Friday

[WestTN_reb]

It is in McClellan's Bayonet Exercise.
Part II:
Instructions with the Plastron

Here is the diagram:
Plastron (http://www.usregulars.com/Bayonet_files/Figs56thru58.jpg)

Hope this clears up the questions. I've actually considered making one, substituting a cow bone for the whale bone. Just can't seem to find the time.

[jerryeberg]

No, the plastron's the coat they wore. I read that somewhere before I made this post.

[Ephraim_Zook]

No, the plastron's the coat they wore. I read that somewhere before I made this post.

Plates XXII and XXIII in McClellan's Bayonet Exercise show a man wearing a plastron made of what appears to be some kind of quilted material. I can not find a decent scan on the web to which to refer you.

regards
Ron

[Marc]

They would be great for a living history showing bayonet drill or a training camp.

[Rob Weaver]

"Plastron" is the technical term for the bib front part of a bib-front shirt. Russian Napoleanic uniforms had a white bib that buttoned over the single-breasted coat. It was called a plastron. I would recommend some sort of protection for the later exercises in McClellan's. (Either that or put a tennis ball on the tip. Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[31stWisconsin]

I think it would be awesome if someone would bring a pair of plastrons, gloves, facemask, and fencing rifles. In fact I would pay good money for that. You could entertain and educate for hours. Bayonet fighting is almost never depicted in skirmishes.

[flattop32355]

I think it would be awesome if someone would bring a pair of plastrons, gloves, facemask, and fencing rifles. In fact I would pay good money for that. You could entertain and educate for hours. Bayonet fighting is almost never depicted in skirmishes.

There are reasons for that:
1) We're not really trying to kill anyone.
2) We're generally not well trained in the use of bayonets.
3) We're not well trained in acting. That can lead to bad things happening.
4) Some people would get carried away in the moment.
5) It ain't just the bayonet end of the rifle that can hurt you. That brass/iron plate on the butt end isn't there just to keep the stock from getting damaged.

[31stWisconsin]

There are reasons for that:
1) We're not really trying to kill anyone.
2) We're generally not well trained in the use of bayonets.
3) We're not well trained in acting. That can lead to bad things happening.
4) Some people would get carried away in the moment.
5) It ain't just the bayonet end of the rifle that can hurt you. That brass/iron plate on the butt end isn't there just to keep the stock from getting damaged.

Yes, and that is why a controlled setting of two fencers with protective clothing and dummy bayonets/rifles would be advantageous.

[Rob Weaver]

As much as I enjoy bayonet exercise myself, I doubt it looked any more like real combat than the dancing hippos in Fantasia resemble real ballet. It was army aerobics, combined with weapons familiarization. It is fun to do, though, and since the public never sees us fix our bayonets except to stack arms, it's a good reminder of the grisly end result of fighting with an empty or misfired musket.

[Remise]

I am a fencing coach, and I also have 24 of those wooden Springfields that Cooperman makes (which we use to drill spectators at our living history events, or at least we used to do this). One day, I would like to see my unit, or somebody, do bayonet practice head-to-head with those muskets, which would be both practical and safe.

As a person who has also taught stage combat, even with experienced reenactors and/or fencers, I would hesitate to have two guys facing one another with real bayonets, especially outside on what might be a slippery surface. I have seen or heard of too many injuries on the stage -- to people who had spent many hours practicing just so they could avoid a mishap -- to be in favor of that.

In fact, I was going to do this about a year ago, at an event at Fort Delaware (as I recall) that had to be cancelled. Too bad, because I was going to bring a German friend with me who had fenced with the schlager when in college in Berlin, and he -- with a very impressive scar down his left cheek -- was going to serve as our event's "German fencing master" for those officers who would have been present. Masks were used in fencing practice back then, so despite the modern markings, they would not have been too out of place.

Maybe next time...

By the way, almost all of the terminology in bayonet practice comes right out of fencing, which is no surprise to anybody, but I am still trying to figure out the military value of the appel, a move in which the soldier first stamps on the ground, and then thrusts. With a sword in hand -- especially indoors -- this would still be a useful distraction, but I cannot see what good it would do outdoors with a musket. Any experts?

B.C. Milligan
Company K, First Penna. Reserves

[flattop32355]

...I am still trying to figure out the military value of the appel, a move in which the soldier first stamps on the ground, and then thrusts. With a sword in hand -- especially indoors -- this would still be a useful distraction, but I cannot see what good it would do outdoors with a musket. Any experts?

It's French....it doesn't have to make sense. ;)

[Ephraim_Zook]

By the way, almost all of the terminology in bayonet practice comes right out of fencing, which is no surprise to anybody, but I am still trying to figure out the military value of the appel, a move in which the soldier first stamps on the ground, and then thrusts. With a sword in hand -- especially indoors -- this would still be a useful distraction, but I cannot see what good it would do outdoors with a musket. Any experts?

B.C. Milligan
Company K, First Penna. Reserves

No expert by any means, but a latter-day observation: Back in the day I was required to undergo some rudimentary riot control training. We went through several evolutions -- right echelon, left echelon, flying wedge -- designed to herd the rioters in the desired direction. Part of the "attack" advance was the "stomp - step". You stomped with one foot, then stepped with the other. That, coupled with the big stick you were carrying, was supposed to give the rioters the heebee-jeebies and send them fleeing in panic. Thankfully, never had the opportunity to use it. Und so -- perhaps the appel was to apply a bit of fear. Dunno.

[Scott Harrington]

Attached is a photo of a bayonet fencing device.

Sized in .69 calibre (though the sight would have to be filed down), there is a rectangular slot for the whalebone, with a set screw to retain.

Scott Harrington
5th NY Duryee's Zouaves
Co. C

[Ephraim_Zook]

"Plastron" is the technical term for the bib front part of a bib-front shirt. Russian Napoleanic uniforms had a white bib that buttoned over the single-breasted coat. It was called a plastron. I would recommend some sort of protection for the later exercises in McClellan's. (Either that or put a tennis ball on the tip. Sorry, couldn't resist.)

One of the URLs I included in an earlier post has photographs of several ball-tipped bayonets. One is identified as an india rubber ball; the other has what appears to be a ball affixed to a funnel stuck on the end of a bayonet.

By the way, "Plastron" is also the technical term for a turtle's ventral shell -- a turtle's "chest protector" as it were.

[tompritchett]

By the way, "Plastron" is also the technical term for a turtle's ventral shell -- a turtle's "chest protector" as it were.

Maybe that is why the term popped up in McClellan's manual then. :wink:

[1stSgt_Wideman]

I think it would be awesome if someone would bring a pair of plastrons, gloves, facemask, and fencing rifles. In fact I would pay good money for that. You could entertain and educate for hours. Bayonet fighting is almost never depicted in skirmishes.
The entertainment value there is to see if anyone does get hurt.8) I'm only making a joke. You guys don't pick me apart. :twisted:

[Ephraim_Zook]

Maybe that is why the term popped up in McClellan's manual then. :wink:
Tom,

That's what came to mind when I first heard the term "plastron" used for bayonet training -- before I ever saw the illustrations.

Ron
Hung around with too many biology majors in college

[tompritchett]

Tom,

That's what came to mind when I first heard the term "plastron" used for bayonet training -- before I ever saw the illustrations.

Actually, I was being too subtle. I was not refering to the protection being provided as in a turtle's shell but rather the pace, or lack of aggressiveness, of McClellan as a general.

[Rob Weaver]

Turtle shells! I knew I'd heard that word someplace else too!!! (My wife was the biology major, not me).

I think the "appell" (sp?) is in the manual because it is a fencing manual, not a fighting manual. It's to teach men to follow orders, to do something in unison, etc. I doubt it was EVER actually used in combat. Can you see that? "Hey look - your shoe's untied" only works in the 3 Stooges.

[Ephraim_Zook]

Actually, I was being too subtle. I was not refering to the protection being provided as in a turtle's shell but rather the pace, or lack of aggressiveness, of McClellan as a general.

"Sometimes you have to rise to the occasion..."
Guess I wasn't in rising mode yesterday. Your subtlety blew right past me. :-(

[Remise]

Turtle shells! I knew I'd heard that word someplace else too!!! (My wife was the biology major, not me).

I think the "appell" (sp?) is in the manual because it is a fencing manual, not a fighting manual. It's to teach men to follow orders, to do something in unison, etc. I doubt it was EVER actually used in combat. Can you see that? "Hey look - your shoe's untied" only works in the 3 Stooges.

"Appel" in French means, "call," and the purpose of the appel, at least in fencing, is to distract one's opponent. It works a bit in competitive fencing, on a hardwood floor or a metal piste. But I agree it is unlikely it would have been used in the rough and tumble of hand-to-hand combat. For one thing, trying the appel on a hillside or in the mud would have probably taken you out of the fight for a few seconds.

B.C. Milligan
Company K, First Penna. Reserves