Musket seems too cheap!

[johnnyreb]

Hey guys, I am not sure if I am putting this post in the correct fourm. But I came across this sutler that is offering a new 1853 Enfeild for $329 shipped. The price just seems to low. Any of you ever heard of this guy???
http://www.ttreasuresu.com/12.html

[Fenian]

It is a smoothbore from those guys in Canada.might be correct if you are portraying a Sepoy! bud scully 13thNJ and 69th NY

[GaWildcat]

It is a smoothbore from those guys in Canada.might be correct if you are portraying a Sepoy! bud scully 13thNJ and 69th NY

That, or its one of those smoothbores from India... if thats the case, dangerous as h e double hockey sticks as they aren't proofed

[Fenian]

Yea the Canadian pieces orginate in India,get a little cleaning up there and viola a cheapo(and possibly dangerous) rendition of a gun that was never used in the Civil War. If that's your price look for an honest used Italian import. Bud Scully 13th NJ and 69th NY

[reb64]

Hey guys, I am not sure if I am putting this post in the correct fourm. But I came across this sutler that is offering a new 1853 Enfeild for $329 shipped. The price just seems to low. Any of you ever heard of this guy???
http://www.ttreasuresu.com/12.html

maybe cheap for a high quality firing rifle, but for a reenactor smoking pole? Id say 300 is more than enough.

[Phil]

The pics on that site aren't the best, largely due to the fact that they seem to be "borrowed" from another site. In the larger photos on the original site (http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/MENF.shtml) they came from, you can see that it's not the Sepoy muskets that used to come out of India, these look to be pretty close to the 1853 model, just with a smoothbored barrel.

They actually have some positive aspects that the Italians refuse to correct, such as a soldered-on rear site, square-eared screw escutcheons, and though the rest of the lockplate stamping is inappropriate, the double-lined engraving is there. It seems as if they could be a decent place to start building a defarbed musket.

[ttreasuresu]

Wow. It seems that we haven't made everything as clear on the website as we had hoped....:confused:

No, our guns are not Canadian, they are New Hampshire-ian... :D Actually, they are made in India, but I'll explain more on that later.

We have our own company, but we retail for Pete and Wendy Plunkett at Middlesex Village Trading Company, and we are working (with their permission) at developing our business to the point that Pete and Wendy can focus solely on wholesale customers. This is the reason for using Pete's pictures on our website. We are attempting to give everyone that "hits" on our site the ability to see exactly what they would see on the Middlesex Village site, without making ourselves a clone.

Now, to the guns themselves. We are both reenactors ourselves, as are Pete and Wendy, but we focus on those "Other Wars" (French & Indian War for Pete & Wendy, American Revolution for us), although Kristin leans heavily toward American Civil War reenacting after having lived in Charleston, South Carolina. This is the reason for the price. We're sure that we could gouge the tar out of every customer that comes down the pike, and the only consequence would be to have everybody that looks at it go, "Holy smoke!! That gun must be awesome 'cause it ain't cheap!!" But we aren't that way. We are interested in making this an affordable hobby for everyone that's interested, not taking as much money as we can get. We have full time jobs already. Our business helps restore our 1847 house, and pay for our own "habit". A low price does not mean a cheap and dangerous product. We won't sell what we wouldn't have and use ourselves. If you think we're kidding, look at our website, and you'll see why we have a vested interest in selling products that are not, with appropriate safety precautions and normal weapon handling, going to explode in your face. Which leads into the next aspect of all of our guns. They are made in India by a proprietary company, and affiliates, that makes guns for Middlesex Village (not some other arms merchants who may happen to reside north of a certain St. Lawrence River....). Our weapons are routinely proofed in Europe, and pass the proof tests just fine. However, there are no proof houses in the United States, nor any regulations or requirements for proofing. Perhaps the United States Government does not feel it is necessary to establish some type of proofing requirement for weapons as some of the European nations have. And they are smoothbore because it's less expensive to make, and easier to clean. If a rifled barrel is wanted, a rifled barrel can be fitted by a competent gunsmith. These are good for the beginning reenactor, or the experienced reenactor that doesn't want to worry about dragging their N-SSA competition rifle through the mud and cracking the stock on a tree.

So, there you have it. If anyone has any questions, feel free to e-mail us and we'll be happy to assist you in any way!!



Kristopher & Kristin Shultz
www.ttreasuresu.com

[tompritchett]

Thank you for your detailed explanation.

[Phil]

I would like to wholeheartedly apologize for making it look as if the photos were used without permission. I take complete responsibility for jumping to a false conclusion and possibly damaging a reputation.

Many years ago when I was looking at buying my first reenacting musket, I noticed that two sites had the same photo of their products and asked one of the vendors about it. He was quite upset that the competing website was using his photo to advertise their product. I thought I was seeing the same situation again, but I was very wrong. Again, I apologize.

[Fenian]

Thank you for setting me straight as well.I'm glad to hear your guns are proved and wish you well with your efforts.Sincerely, bud Scully 13th NJ and 69th NY

[Rob Weaver]

Maybe I'm just getting senile, but if a reenactor never intends to fire a musket live, and smoothbore vs. rifling knocks the price in half - I'd do it.

[ttreasuresu]

Hello all, and thank you for the comments regarding our Enfields & apologies were not necessary. We are glad to see people inquiring about us.

Our stamping has now changed to be more correct. We now have the crown on the front side of the lock and the TOWER stamp in the front of the lock on the barrel end. The only thing missing is the 1853 stamp. Our stamping is not exact because you are supposed have permission from the British government to mark your guns that way. It is similar to a copyright.

Also we now have bayonets available for the Enfields. They are $45.

We currently are out of stock on our Enfields, but we are taking names for our wait list. If you are interested in purchasing an Enfield from us with in the next 2 to 3 months, you want to be on this wait list.

Thank you for your interest in our weapons and if any of you have any questions feel free to contact us. We are always happy to assist you!
Kristin Shultz
Kristin@ttreasuresu.com
www.ttreasuresu.com (http://www.ttreasuresu.com)

[TimKindred]

Yea the Canadian pieces orginate in India,get a little cleaning up there and viola a cheapo(and possibly dangerous) rendition of a gun that was never used in the Civil War. If that's your price look for an honest used Italian import. Bud Scully 13th NJ and 69th NY

Bud,

FWIW, there is a very large market for Enfield and Springfield weapons with smoothbores. It is in Europe, and especially in England where the laws make it almost impossible to own a rifled weapon. However, it is fairly easy to obtain a shotgun permit, and by using smoothbore barrels, the reenactors can more easily obtain a weapon.

This is simply the offset that reenactors over the pond have to deal with and accept if they want to be a part of this hobby. I know it sucks, but that's real life in countries where folks are subjects rather than citizens.

Respects,

[ttreasuresu]

Hello all, and thank you for the comments regarding our Enfields & apologies were not necessary. We are glad to see people inquiring about us.

Our stamping has now changed to be more correct. We now have the crown on the front side of the lock and the TOWER stamp in the front of the lock on the barrel end. The only thing missing is the 1853 stamp. Our stamping is not exact because you are supposed have permission from the British government to mark your guns that way. It is similar to a copyright.

Also we now have bayonets available for the Enfields. They are $45.

We currently are out of stock on our Enfields, but we are taking names for our wait list. If you are interested in purchasing an Enfield from us with in the next 2 to 3 months, you want to be on this wait list.

Thank you for your interest in our weapons and if any of you have any questions feel free to contact us. We are always happy to assist you!
Kristin Shultz
Kristin@ttreasuresu.com
www.ttreasuresu.com (http://www.ttreasuresu.com)



Sorry I miss typed...............
The Crown & VR is behind the hammer as on the originals. The TOWER is in front of the hammer.

[Hoosier49er]

I recently purchased one of these Enfields, and can testify that they are perfectly safe. The only issues that people should be aware of are: The front sight is basicaly a "lump". This was fine with me, as I could file it to fit my bayonet, (mine is the only one in my unit that does not rattle), and the screws on the barrel bands were VERY crude. As already mentioned, they are smooth-bores, but spectators are never close enough to see this, and I never fire live rounds with it anyway. Other than that, this 1853 functions just as well, if not better than my Armisport 1853. Perfect musket for someone getting into the hobby that doesn't bring in a brain surgeon's income.

Just my two cents.

[jerryeberg]

I've been looking for someone to write a review like this. Thanks a lot!

[Tiger_rifles]

Good Day Mr. Shultz, and thank you for your reply defending your muskets. I believe that when some on this thread refered to your muskets as "Canadian", they meant that they were from a company in Canada that sells Indian Muskets here in the "lower 48" also, and meant you no ill-will. This, and the fact to you set up this business to restore your 1847 home, etc... is not the issue, or the original intent of this thread/post.

The issue is "Are these lower priced muskets safe to use for re-enacting, and/or live fire, or are they just wall-hangers"?

One only needs to do a seach on this forum for "India" + "Musket" to see multiple posts and pictures of India made muskets that have blown up! There are some wonderfully telling pictures posted by Mr. Prince that show his India 1816 barrel that I would say is not even safe to shoot off a bottle rocket!


Here are some tests to put your India muskets through.....
#1 You stated that, "Our weapons are routinely proofed in Europe, and pass the proof tests just fine." Does this mean that your muskets are made in India, then shipped to some place in Europe for testing, then shipped to you? Do your barrels have "Proof Marks"? Has the metal in your barrels been tested for its Steel content? Barrels should be made of hardened/tempered steel, not melted down car bumpers. Also, the barrel thickness at the breech should be about 3/8 in. or more, the India muskets I have seen are the same thickness at the breech as they are at the muzzle!
#2, Every barrel should have a breech plug or as they called it then a breech screw. This is a hardened piece of steel with a heavy threaded end that screws into the breech of the barrel,(often the tang is attached to this screw). The pictures on this forum, and barrels I have seen from India simple have a thin piece of metal welded on to the breech! And the tang attached to that. Do your India muskets have a breech screw?
#3, It was agreed over 200 years ago by the Committy of Safety to only use such hard woods as Walnut, Maple, etc... for musket production due to these type woods ability to withstand heavy impact and not splinter, to not dent, crack, or split easily, so on and so on and so on! All India muskets I have seen are made from soft woods like Teak and Rosewood, and most important are not cut or prepaired in a proper fashion,(this process is very detailed and I do not think anyone wants to hear all of that!).
So Mr. Shultz, what are your musket stocks made from and are they prepaired properly?

I tried to answer some of these questions on my own, but your web site shows no pictures that I could find.

As re-enactors or Living Historians we often ask ourselves why is this stuff so high priced!!! But we never look into the skilled craftsman that made this STUFF! If you happen to fall upon the right story you will see that there were 10's of 1,000's of people that wanted to go off and fight, but knew that thier skills were better served on the home front as Locksmiths,(for muskets not doors!), weavers, cobblers, so on and so on! One of my family joined the 9th Va. Cav., but when they found he could make shoes he was sent to Richmond. Any one of us that has made a shirt or trousers by all hand stitching now has a small touch of what it must have been like for a batch worker doing that day in and day out!
OK time to get off my soapbox!

What we ALL must understand is that if we sell or loan or give away a musket, someday someone is going to try and live fire it!, or double or triple load it! And if it fails..... then that blood is on your hands!

And if you have one of these Indian made muskets, get it checked out! Lets not forget friends, you are not only putting that thing up to your face..... you are putting it up to the face of the man to your right and your left!

[7thNJcoA]

My question is if tested at home before using at a reenactment and it fails common proof tests can the person get a full refund no questions asked apon the return of the weapon?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"My question is if tested at home before using at a reenactment and it fails common proof tests can the person get a full refund no questions asked apon the return of the weapon?"

I am not a vendor, nor can speak for any vendor, but...

"Not likely." IMHO.

How would a vendor be able to insure/ensure/assure that the customer actually performed, or was competent to perform, a "common proof" test?
Meaning, not used 200 grains of smokeless power and a dozen balls?

The customer's "word?"

On the other side of the coin... what vendor is going to say:

"Yeah. I am knowingly and calculatingly selling lower priced decorative wall-hanging visual representations of 19th and
18th century firearms not built of proper materials or in the proper way, to be actual functioning firearms, and that will likely fail and injure, maim, or kill the user and those around him."

The conundrum is, IMHO, how do we get the "demons" back in Pandora's Box here once loosed?

However we do do a lot on faith. In the absence of authoritative, professional, factual information, I have read that these "Indian imports:"

1. are decorators and wall hangers that are "made to fire" after importation (to avoid gun laws) and because they are not guns they are not, and do not have to be "proofed."

2. that the customer should "proof" them before use.

3. that there are "Indian imports" and then there are "Indian imports." Meaning they are not "all the same" and one "line" is said to be produced to be fired and are professionally, commercially proofed by an Italian Proof House.

4. Joe Reenactor says "I've got one and I like it, and mine has not blown up!"

IMHO, so much talk, so little verifiable, factual information to base a decision on as an educated consumer and informed customer.

But then on a bad day, can anyone really tell me what the little "proof" stampings on Italian imports actual mean? ;) :) :)

I assume, on faith, and a limited-to-no understanding of Italian Proof Houses other than the obvious... that they mean something good for me and those around me.

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS

[JustinPrince]

My question is if tested at home before using at a reenactment and it fails common proof tests can the person get a full refund no questions asked apon the return of the weapon?

This is something I would like to hear as well.

Speaking of the Vendor, Middlesex Village, they completely state that the weapon must be returned for a refund, less shipping, in unused and unaltered condition.

Obviously my musket fails that because I reshaped the butt. In the FAQ, however, MVT specifically states Unused means just that. If you have fired the gun, even once, it is now "used" and I can't resell it as a new one and therefore cannot refund the full purchase price.

So, as in my case, I'm not getting even a partial refund. MVT is going to replace or "fix" the barrel. Treasure's policy might be different, but the base warranty from the vendor implies that if you proof it and the barrel explodes, all you are entitled to is another barrel, or if it simply "fails" they will somehow "fix" the barrel.

Which means if you proof the musket and it fails, and then you lose confidence in a musket made in India, which I have, you're still stuck with the piece. Unless you do what Mr. Plunkett suggested to me, sell it for a drastically reduced price on Gunbroker. Also, keep in mind again dealing with my case, if you tighten a screw or two on your lock to keep it working properly, that constitutes to the parent company's mind that you "alterered" the lock and possibly voids any implied warranty on it.

I hope Treasures' policy is different, but I have a hard time seeing a dramatic change from that of MVT's.

Speaking of my 1816 pictures I have more, plus some higher quality ones. I even have some with OIL, not thinner water, seeping from breech plug seam.

[Tiger_rifles]

OK Gents and Ladies,
Mr. Giles Cromwell stated in his book, "The Virginia Manufactory of Arms", that The VM of A used "the same method as practiced at the Springfield Armory", for proofing thier barrels.
"The first proof used at the armory was three and five-eights inches of Brandy-wine FF powder, a wad, two balls,and another wad. For the second test, a little more than two inches of Brady-wine FF powder, a wad, and one ball and another wad were used."

Would any of you with an Indian made musket care to try this proofing test?

"Not I"

[7thNJcoA]

If I had the money and didnt care about whre my money went I would love to give one of these just a blank proof test with some wadding just to see how safe it is for just blank firing. Of course you would have to buy a few to get any data that can back your experiment.


The thing that gets me if they are dangerous and the Company knows this is there a liability issue.. Do they have a disclaimer USE AT OWN RISK WITH POWDER. Or that they are for display only. Enough of these cause injuries or god forbid a death will there be any action?

[JustinPrince]

If I had the money and didnt care about whre my money went I would love to give one of these just a blank proof test with some wadding just to see how safe it is for just blank firing. Of course you would have to buy a few to get any data that can back your experiment.


The thing that gets me if they are dangerous and the Company knows this is there a liability issue.. Do they have a disclaimer USE AT OWN RISK WITH POWDER. Or that they are for display only. Enough of these cause injuries or god forbid a death will there be any action?

Well, have you looked at my Middlesex 1816 thread? To test my .69cal barrel I poured in 75 grains of powder followed by a rammed paper 75grain charge of powder. Fired. Then poured in two 75 grain charges and used a ramrod to pack it, but no paper wadding. After that, water and later oil seeped out of the breech plug.

I will also add that Pete Plunkett, who told me to proof with 140 grains 2F, patch, ball, patch, then ball was VERY displeased when I told him I used two blanks and wadding. He accused my of "making up my own test" that "proved nothing."

As to liabilty, only Military Heritage/Discriminating General has such a claim. The muskets are sold as (from their website):

Non-Firing State

We sell historically accurate muskets as a non-firing state. This allows us to comply with local, state, national and international firearms regulations. A certified gunsmith may alter this musket to a firing state by drilling the vent hole and test firing it. We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its present non-firing state.



So they are sold in a non firing state. You can change it to a firing state, but they aren't legally responsible. So if it blows up and kills you, you can't sue them. Why? It was a wall hanger and sold that way.

From Loyalist Arms website,

Loading and proofing data included with all guns.
All moving parts warranted for 6 months and all springs for 1 year.



This implies that they are to be shot, and that the company will tell you how to load and proof it. This suggests they are safe to fire, but you should proof them, although it is not manditory.

From Middlesex Village:


Q #4: Is there a guarantee?
A: Yes. We guarantee the locks against breakage under normal operating conditions.

"Normal operating conditions" means not rusted or modified. Your next door neighbor's cousin's brother-in-law who "works on guns" is probably not qualified to repair a flintlock. If there is a problem with a lock, send it to us and we will take care of it.

Springs and frizzen wear are included in the guarantee. To date we have had a grand total of five broken springs. Frizzens wear out today just as they did in the 18th century. The sparks you see when snapping a flintlock are little bits of frizzen being scraped away by the flint. If the case hardening wears through send it to me and I will reharden it. If there is a problem, communication with us is the way to fix it and keep it from happening again. Grumbling about a problem around a campfire doesn't fix anything.

Q #5: Can these be fired with shot?
A: Yes. Many of our customers hunt with these. Others target shoot. Others just shoot blanks in reenactments. The barrels are made of D.O.M. steel just like the "big names". The breechplugs are threaded and tight.

Using a reasonable load is expected of you and beyond our control. Black powder only!!! An owner's manual comes with each gun. If you lost yours, bought the gun used, or your dog ate it, the entire document is available to download as a text document here


Q #7: Are the barrels proofed?
A: No. Here in the US, there are no proof houses. I checked with SAAMI as to their reccomendations about proofing. ("Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute", the organization who sets standards for such things)
Here was the response:

"SAAMI is currently working on setting standards for muzzleloading guns. There is no proof standard at this time... Cartridge guns are proofed at 130% to 140% of service load pressures. Where and how proofing of muzzleloaders will be done is not yet set."

What does this mean? It means that here in America, there are no standards to proof barrels to, nor proof houses to do the testing. In countries where there are proof laws and proof houses (like the UK and Germany), these routinely pass proof testing.


Q #11: Is the vent hole drilled?
A: Yes. A flintlock without a vent hole is a fancy paperweight. We sell muzzleloaders, not paperweights. For paperweights, try an office supply store. For international shipment, we can provide an unvented barrel upon request, sometimes advance notice is needed for an unvented gun though as 99.99% of our customers want them ready to shoot.



So they are sold as firearms, that people shoot with all the time, and that regularly pass proofing. No where does it suggest that 1) These are wallhangers, 2) they are unsafe, 3) you actually need to proof them.

[Julius]

To get back to the fore mentioned "P-53". It is advertised as a smooth bore.That is clearly not a P-53. Then it is touted as being a smooth bore for easy cleaning.
It doesn't matter to me if it is a smooth bore or a rifled musket or my Remington Woodmaster. I am going to give the same dedication in cleaning. I have been shooting since I was a small child. I am sure much of you have also.
Any way if you don't have enough respect for your weapon to give it a proper cleaning after use you do not need to be shooting, blanks or otherwise. And I certainly don't want you standing next to me or firing in my general direction.

[jerryeberg]

I disagree. If I was given the choice of having a smoothbore or a rifled musket for reenacting, I would definitely take the smoothbore. He (and many other people) are right, it is much easier to clean. And as many people are afraid of, especially if they're afraid of these guns having weak barrels, there is more chance of powder getting caught in the grooves and cooking-off in a rifle while a smoothbore wouldn't do that.
There's also some accounts of souljas removing the rifling of their Enfields.

[GaWildcat]

There's also some accounts of souljas removing the rifling of their Enfields.


That I would like to see... and reference for this??

[Julius]

I disagree. If I was given the choice of having a smoothbore or a rifled musket for reenacting, I would definitely take the smoothbore. He (and many other people) are right, it is much easier to clean. And as many people are afraid of, especially if they're afraid of these guns having weak barrels, there is more chance of powder getting caught in the grooves and cooking-off in a rifle while a smoothbore wouldn't do that.
There's also some accounts of souljas removing the rifling of their Enfields.

Do you disgree that same care should be given in cleaning in any weapon?
By grooves do you mean rifling?
And if you dont think that smooth bores and rifles muskets diserve the attention you should not be shooting.
As for as the "grooves" holding an ember and causing a cook off I have never heard of that happening.
Also if given the choice of choosing a smooth bore over a rifeld musket choose one that was not historicly rifled not one that was rifled.
Just one more thing not to pick on you but under your signature it says "We teach what the classes and textbooks don't" would that be historical inacuracies?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"There's also some accounts of souljas removing the rifling of their Enfields."

While it is never wise to say "never..." And while I am not entirely sure a "soulja" is the same as an Amercian Civkl War soldier... ;) :)

I would also like to learn more about the source documentation for the removal of rifling in Enfields by soldiers?

CHS

[jerryeberg]

I remember finding it when I was doing research on my original Enfield, which has its rifling removed. I'll look for it and post it when I find it.

Here's one that mentions smoothbore Enfields, but it doesn't say how they got that way.

http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/libsrc/moquartermaster.htm

[jerryeberg]

I'm sorry. I had it wrong. It was the rear sight that the rebels removed, not the rifling. Really sorry about that, bad info.

[jerryeberg]

Do you disgree that same care should be given in cleaning in any weapon?
By grooves do you mean rifling?
And if you dont think that smooth bores and rifles muskets diserve the attention you should not be shooting.
As for as the "grooves" holding an ember and causing a cook off I have never heard of that happening.
Also if given the choice of choosing a smooth bore over a rifeld musket choose one that was not historicly rifled not one that was rifled.
Just one more thing not to pick on you but under your signature it says "We teach what the classes and textbooks don't" would that be historical inacuracies?

It says 'teach', not show. Some people can't tell the difference. Don't insult our company's motto.

As I have no intention of ever live-firing a musket, yes, I would prefer a smoothbore over a rifled musket of the same reproduced model, as long as it is accurate on the outside. I'm not going to be pointing my gun at some spectator's eye saying, "look down there, see the rifling... that's accurate". There are more important accuracies people should be working on than the rifling or not-rifling of their muskets!
Non rifled muskets are just another case of commonly used inaccuracies, such as stainless steel canteens, women soldiers, and the number of soldiers in a company. Unless you are part of a company with 100 men it at every reenactment, you can't complain about someone else's inaccurate musket innards!
Don't tell me I shouldn't be shooting!

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Thanks for sharing.

It is a puzzlement though as the lisitng says .58 smoothbore Enfields, as to whether it is true, or a copy error on part of the researcher.

The British did not like to make great differences in armament between British and "native infantry" regiments. The "native" version of the P1853 Enfield, the smoothbore Pattern of 1858, closely resembles the P1853 save for the rear sight and the muzzle with its .656 bore. The next year, a smoothbore P1859 came out that was essentially the same except for front sight and an overall "lightening" effort to keep it at roughly at 8 1/2 pounds by lightenng the bayonet, stock, and furniture some to compensate for a heavier barrel.

I am momentarily stumped, as I do not recall any of the U.S. or C.S. agents or purchases speaking to smoothbore Enfields in .58, and none for "native" P1858/P1859 smoothbores.

CHS

[reb64]

My first muzzleloaders were from dixie gun works and they had japanese made barrels. I am not promoting them, but do testify that those barrels on my first springfields lasted under some hot and heavy loads including live fire, and are probably still doing so. are any barrels usa made and strong or who has the best baels for reenacting?

[Julius]

[Don't tell me I shouldn't be shooting]

Simmer down friend. From what you have said you do not advocate thouroghly cleaning your smooth bore Enfield. That relates to a saftey issue for me.I would tell god and sonny jesus to stop shooting if I felt it was unsafe for me or my pards.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

I remember finding it when I was doing research on my original Enfield, which has its rifling removed. I'll look for it and post it when I find it.

Here's one that mentions smoothbore Enfields, but it doesn't say how they got that way.

http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/libsrc/moquartermaster.htm


Perhaps your'e thinking of surplus arms sales...in which case some rifles were bored out to be smoothbore and the stocks shortened to perform more like shotguns??

I'm puzzled, as I've never heard of any SOLDIER intentionally removing the rifling from his barrel...how would one do this in the field, without destroying the weapon in the process...?

[jerryeberg]

Oh, no. I don't shoot my Enfield. I agree, it would be a safety issue, since the barrel has been drilled out to make it a shotgun, and I do avoid non-safe guns. That's just a wall hanger.

[jerryeberg]

Is there a difference between this musket and the one Loyalist Arms sells? LA is slightly more expensive, is that because the quality is better?

[Julius]

I would imagine it is the same one as LA. The reason for the price difference is due to the Canadian $ vs. the American $
At any rate they are both out of India. And not worth the money.

[1stTexas]

What is the difference in the P58 Enfield 2-band "Naval" rifle and the P58 Enfield 2-band "Native" Infantry musket. I assume the difference was that the P.58 Naval Enfield had a .577" rifled bore.

During the 1857-1858 rebellion, the sepoys used Native Infantry P58 and P59 Enfield smoothbore and was only effective to 200 yards. They were hopelessly outgunned by the Brithish who used P.53 Enfield 3-band rifle muskets which were effective to 900 yards.

The Tyler Enfields (Tyler Texas) were made by Bisco and Short Co. The company made copies of the Mississippi rifle, 3-band P.53 Enfield rifle , Austrian rifle, and Hill rifle. All of those rifles made by Bisco and Short at the Tyler Arsenal were equipped with Enfield lock plates. In 1865, Brig. General Jo Shelby's Expedition to Mexico passed through Tyler Texas and was given the last remaining 1,500 rifles in the Bisco and Short Arsenal. Only 5 of the Tyler rifles are known to exist today.There are many Tyler rifles surviving in Mexico because Emperor Maximillian's Mexican army met Shelby's Expedition at the Rio Grande River at Piedras Negras and made them surrender all their long arms.

[GaWildcat]

Curt,

Hey! I have one of those!!! It needs some help, like a lock and washers, and sling swivels... but its a nice example, with a gorgeous patina on it.. and very clear RSAM Enfield cartouche on the stock.

Any idea if Lodgewood or S & S has a lock that I can use to pop into it?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

It might be worth a call to Bill at Lodgewood to find out, a si do not know his inventory.

In the past 4-8 years or so, there has been an influx of these, with soem being imported and offered by Atlanta Cutlery/Msueum Replicas, and some actually being sent back from Afghanistan bazaars by US servicement.

"What is the difference in the P58 Enfield 2-band "Naval" rifle and the P58 Enfield 2-band "Native" Infantry musket. I assume the difference was that the P.58 Naval Enfield had a .577" rifled bore."

Hmmmm. That is messy... ;)
There isn't a native version of the P1858 Naval Rifle.
As a companion weapon for sergeants of native infantry, they came out with a "native version" of the P1856 Sergeant's Rifled Fusil called the smoothbore P1858 Sergeants' Fusil. As with poicy, it was similar to the P1856 Sergeants' Fusil except it was lighter at 8 1/2 pounds complete with bayonet. Where they largely saved weigth was on the bored out .656 33 inch barrel that weighted only 3 lb. 5 ounces.
The rest of the "for the East Indian Government" arms, they were cavalry, mounted and foot police, and sappers' carbines.

The visual differences between the regular and native arms is NUG, just the
bore size and rifling, a general lightening, and a block rear sight instead of the typically Enfield folding leaf type adjustable rear sights.

CHS

[RedkepiWA]

Where do you find Enfields were smooth bored for Sepoys? I thought the reason for the Sepoy Revolt, was in response to the "new" cartridge introduced with the "new" Enfield Rifled Musket. Rumor of Cow or Pig tallow being used etc. Therefore they seem to have been issued the Rifled Musket. The fact they fought so well and did so much damage would suggest they had more than Smooth bore muskets. Just my thoughts.

P.

[tompritchett]

Where do you find Enfields were smooth bored for Sepoys? I thought the reason for the Sepoy Revolt, was in response to the "new" cartridge introduced with the "new" Enfield Rifled Musket. Rumor of Cow or Pig tallow being used etc. Therefore they seem to have been issued the Rifled Musket. The fact they fought so well and did so much damage would suggest they had more than Smooth bore muskets. Just my thoughts.

Check the dates. The Sepoy revolution was in 1857, the Enfield smoothbore was devoloped in 1858 for issuing to the native troops.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"I thought the reason for the Sepoy Revolt, was in response to the "new" cartridge introduced with the "new" Enfield Rifled Musket. Rumor of Cow or Pig tallow being used etc"

That also is even more messier. While it is historically debated , the causes of the Sepoy Rebellion, aka the "First War of Independence" are complex and range from the British government moving to take over from the East India Company rule, but also driving out the former feudal systems by the doctrine of Lapse (where if a moghul dynasty did not have a male heir his power revereted to the British), ill treatment of Sepoy troops (native Indians) under the British military system, etc., etc.,
The business over the new P1853 Enfield's cartridge was a propaganda tool targeted against the Moslem Indians when it was said it was lubed with lard (pork), and also targeted against Hindu Indians when it was said that the new cartridges were lubed with beef tallow.

CHS

[Fatback and Beans]

The business over the new P1853 Enfield's cartridge was a propaganda tool targeted against the Moslem Indians when it was said it was lubed with lard (pork), and also targeted against Hindu Indians when it was said that the new cartridges were lubed with beef tallow.Excellent example of 19th Cent. PSYOPS/PSYWAR at work.

The issuance of smoothbores to the Indian native troops is well documented, and all one has to do is research native Indian troops under the British even just a little bit to confirm it. They simply didn't want the natives having the same firepower as the British troops. It wasn't only limited to the 19th century either, I've seen examples of Lee-Enfield No. 1 Mk. IIIs with bored out barrels that were used for the same purpose.

Some folks also might be confusing the 1837 campaign to eradicate the Thuggee and the 1857 Sepoy Revolt.

[PaperPusher]

I have read through all of the postings on this thread and find it a good practice in democracy through freedom of speech and more importantly opinion accompanied by the individuals interpretation of the facts. I do not intend to dispute historical data or common weapon usage during the War as I am but a wee lad in the world of historical accuracy but a lad who is willing to learn and keeps my eyes and mind open to new and more correct information.

That being said. I own one of the smoothbores advertised by timeless treasures. I bought the weapon as a reenactor weapon only....I WILL NEVER LIVE FIRE THIS WEAPON. My mother taught me better. I have used this weapon at four events in the last in the last five months where I have put as many as 100 rounds per day through it (reenactor blanks of course). I have had no issues with this weapon including failure of it's working parts, noticable signs of stress in the barrel or other metal work, or even a single crack or split in the stock. I have loaned this weapon to others to use during a battle and it came back as sound as it was when it left my hands. I do a mounted cavalry impression, an infantry impression and a staff impression (which turns out to be more like indentured servitude than enjoyment) with a strong desire to learn the nuances of an artillery impression. I get around basically and this reasonably priced, IMHO well made weapon is a blessing for those with little money who enjoy reenacting as much as those of us who are fortunate enought to do multiple impressions or are able to truly "fine tune" our favorite impression.

I applaud Timeless Treasures for making reenacting friendly to all walks with this low cost, useable offering.