Mounted Services Jacket

[ncc1701]

Gentlemen,
Do any of you fellows have a pictures of Civil War soldiers in Mounted Services jackets with either field altered or arsenal manufactured short collar and/or one false buttonhole? I'm trying to put together a New Mexican/Coloradoan Artillery Private Impression and I'm trying to establish how often this was done and whether or not it would be appropriate for me to do. I'd also like a guide by which i could do a field alteration to a coat with a high collar. I appreciate any assistance.

YMOS,
Aaron

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Something that was extremely common in the Federal artillery was wearing the plain o' infantry fatigue blouse (sack coat).

[dclarry]

Aaron,

I would first consider Mr. O'Bierne's comment on how very common it was for artillerymen to wear a fatique blouse/sack coat. A sack coat would give you the most generic, common artillery impression.

However, if you do want an MSJ, and you particularly want a low collar and single row of collar trim , check out Nick Sekela's Volunteer MSJ. Nick's Volunteer jacket is so named because the short collar was a characteristic of some volunteer or state unit jackets. I have one of Nick's Volunteer jackets. The link to the Volunteer Jacket on Nick's website is below.

http://www.njsekela.com//OSCommerce/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=57&osCsid=c6f7461bf9e7eae5953c885b93d0514f

There are valid reasons to want the Volunteer style of MSJ. The heritage unit for my artillery unit definitely wore Volunteer jackets, at least some members did for certain. All photos that I have seen of original unit members show them wearing Volunteer jackets or sack coats. Low-collar MSJ's show up in photos enough to believe they were common enough to justify their use in reenacting, IMHO. A good example of a Volunteer MSJ is seen in EOG, Union, page 113.

[ncc1701]

I already have a sack coat, which I wear generally, but the look of the MSJ is great and I'd love to have one. I'm just trying to find some pictures of altered MSJ collars to replicate on one of my own.

YMOS,
Aaron

[Dave Myrick]

I am quite intrigued by the mention of this "volunteer" MSJ. I know of no such garment. A mounted services jacket is a very particular garment and the specifications for such are readily available. The only true variation to the pattern of the MSJ that I know of is the St. Louis Arsenal using one row of tape vice two to make the false button holes on the collar. Otherwise the materials and cut of the jacket is virtualy identical to any other MSJ.

Now it was quite common for soldiers to alter their uniforms for style or comfort reasons. What can easily be done is to simply fold the collar to the inside and stitch it down thereby shortening it's height without cutting up the garment.

Dave Myrick

[ncc1701]

I thought of that way. is there evidence of this being done? Or were they cut?

YMOS,
Aaron

[Dave Myrick]

I thought of that way. is there evidence of this being done? Or were they cut?

YMOS,
Aaron

Yes to both.
Dave

[jgr1974]

Do some research on Wilder's brigade. The brigade was made up of mostly mounted infantry. There is a book, I believe called "Blue Lightning", about this brigade. There are several photos of members throughout. I have not seen the book in some time, but I do know there are several pics of altered uniforms-ie removal of trim from mounted jackets!!!

The Mad MIck!!!

[ncc1701]

Thanks! will do!

Aaron

[Fenian]

There is another older volume, "Ligtning at Hoover's Gap",that also had photos.I think the author may have been Sutherland?;) Bud

[Fenian]

There is an older volume "Lightning at Hoover's Gap" that also has photos.Sutherland may have been the author? Bud Scully 13th NJ and 69th NY;)

[ncc1701]

great! does anybody have images on their computer?

YMOS,
Aaron

[RJSamp]

Do some research on Wilder's brigade. The brigade was made up of mostly mounted infantry. There is a book, I believe called "Blue Lightning", about this brigade. There are several photos of members throughout. I have not seen the book in some time, but I do know there are several pics of altered uniforms-ie removal of trim from mounted jackets!!!

The Mad MIck!!!


I could have sworn that untrimmed shell jackets were available for issue...... and issued to all branches for use with or without 'mounts'.

"Blue Lightning" is right here.....what do I look for to 'prove' that the trim was removed?

I'll have to pull my 9th ILL book as well......the Deutscher's mounted up on mules and eventually drew mounted pattern trowsers.....and I thought untrimmed shell jackets.....

You wrote: "The brigade was made up of mostly mounted infantry"......what else did they have in their brigade, dismounted Engineers.....?

[3rdUSRedleg]

You wrote: "The brigade was made up of mostly mounted infantry"......what else did they have in their brigade, dismounted Engineers.....?


There was infact Mounted Infantry, I dont get that remark stated.

As of shell jackets issued by State and or Contractors, I have pics of some but can not figure out how to upload them to save my own hide. Sorry on that account.

[dclarry]

I am quite intrigued by the mention of this "volunteer" MSJ. I know of no such garment. A mounted services jacket is a very particular garment and the specifications for such are readily available. The only true variation to the pattern of the MSJ that I know of is the St. Louis Arsenal using one row of tape vice two to make the false button holes on the collar. Otherwise the materials and cut of the jacket is virtualy identical to any other MSJ.

Now it was quite common for soldiers to alter their uniforms for style or comfort reasons. What can easily be done is to simply fold the collar to the inside and stitch it down thereby shortening it's height without cutting up the garment.

Dave Myrick

This is the third or fourth time I have seen the topic of short-collar MSJ's come up. Check out the thread below on the AC, started by me after I read our heritage unit history, "Rickett's Battery: A History of Battery F, Ist Pennsylvania Light Artillery", Sauers and Tomasak. I was curious about the images in the book showing artillerymen in short-collar shell jackets. I have many images scanned, but I do not want to post them due to copyright concerns. (Moderator, should I post them?)

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8784&highlight=interesting+artillery+jacket

No claim is made that any arsenal made such short-collar jackets, Schuylkill or St. Louis. As indicated on Nick Sekela's website, no provenance is claimed for the moniker 'Volunteer Jacket' - it's just a convenient description, better than saying 'short-collar MSJ similar to some seen in photos of some volunteer units'.

Early volunteer units were known to procure their own uniforms or have them altered en masse by a tailor. The jackets shown in the Rickett's Battery history look more like some variation on a state issue jacket than a modified SA jacket. The number of buttons down, for example, are not consistent with an altered SA or StL jacket.

See also the New York artillery jacket in Don Troiani's Cavalry & Artillery, pg. 52, which is indicated as being modified but as it has only nine buttons, it is not an altered SA jacket. Also, see the artillery musician's jacket on the same page, with short collar, but with eleven buttons down the front like a St Louis jacket.

[tompritchett]

This is the third or fourth time I have seen the topic of short-collar MSJ's come up. Check out the thread below on the AC, started by me after I read our heritage unit history, "Rickett's Battery: A History of Battery F, Ist Pennsylvania Light Artillery", Sauers and Tomasak. I was curious about the images in the book showing artillerymen in short-collar shell jackets. I have many images scanned, but I do not want to post them due to copyright concerns. (Moderator, should I post them?)

To be honest, I am by no means an expert on copyright law. There was an extended discussion of copyright provisions that started last year in the Perryville Breakdown thread (http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1762&page=13) starting at post #124. In this thread Bill Watson provided the following link at the Myths of copyrights: http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html. As far as your specific question, I have PM'd Mr. Watson to see if he could address it as he probably is more familiar with what is legal and not legal under copyright laws than anyone else here that I am aware of.

[RJSamp]

There was infact Mounted Infantry, I dont get that remark stated.


Wilder's brigade was ENTIRELY mounted infantry...not mostly, not some. he didn't have any attached leg infantry....

[DaveGink]

To be honest, I am by no means an expert on copyright law. There was an extended discussion of copyright provisions that started last year in the Perryville Breakdown thread (http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1762&page=13) starting at post #124. In this thread Bill Watson provided the following link at the Myths of copyrights: http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html. As far as your specific question, I have PM'd Mr. Watson to see if he could address it as he probably is more familiar with what is legal and not legal under copyright laws than anyone else here that I am aware of.

I run my own graphic design studio and have worked in advertising for over 25 years. So copyright law is something I deal with constantly (although I do not claim to be a copyright attorney).

Posting images from a book is generally allowable and falls under the "fair use" section the US copyright code, if they are for commentary, research, and education. Just make sure the source/copyright holder is attributed (right on the image itself would be best) and make sure to use as little of the image as possible (and as few images as possible) to make your point.

That said, there is never a guarantee that posting someone elses photos/art/writings/etc. won't cause problems. "Fair use" is actually a defense in court, and if a copyright holder gets upset they could still sue for copyright infringement. So be considerate and use prudence. If you posted a pile of full-page photos from a coffee table book of photos, most likely the copyright holder would be pissed and could try to claim damages saying you have harmed the commercial value of the book. But a couple of cropped photos showing details of a jacket and giving the source shouldn't cause any concern.

[DaveGink]

Gentlemen,
Do any of you fellows have a pictures of Civil War soldiers in Mounted Services jackets with either field altered or arsenal manufactured short collar and/or one false buttonhole? I'm trying to put together a New Mexican/Coloradoan Artillery Private Impression and I'm trying to establish how often this was done and whether or not it would be appropriate for me to do. I'd also like a guide by which i could do a field alteration to a coat with a high collar. I appreciate any assistance.

YMOS,
Aaron

Go to the Library of Congress site (http://www.loc.gov/rr/print/catalog.html) and download the hi-rez photo of the 3d Indiana Cavalry (Petersburg, Nov 64). It has some fantastic views of altered MSJ's.

[3rdUSRedleg]

Wilder's brigade was ENTIRELY mounted infantry...not mostly, not some. he didn't have any attached leg infantry....

RJ,
Thank you for clarifying. No disrespect intended.:grin:
We're on the same level. I assumed he was speaking in general.

[tompritchett]

Posting images from a book is generally allowable and falls under the "fair use" section the US copyright code, if they are for commentary, research, and education. Just make sure the source/copyright holder is attributed (right on the image itself would be best) and make sure to use as little of the image as possible (and as few images as possible) to make your point.

That said, there is never a guarantee that posting someone elses photos/art/writings/etc. won't cause problems. "Fair use" is actually a defense in court, and if a copyright holder gets upset they could still sue for copyright infringement. So be considerate and use prudence. If you posted a pile of full-page photos from a coffee table book of photos, most likely the copyright holder would be pissed and could try to claim damages saying you have harmed the commercial value of the book. But a couple of cropped photos showing details of a jacket and giving the source shouldn't cause any concern.

Thank you. That was what I was thinking also but, not dealing with such issues daily, I did not want to give out bad advice that could get someone in trouble for a post here.

[dclarry]

Here's a picture of an original Battery F member, Moore, wearing a short-collar artillery jacket. It's cropped from a photo which has been posted online before. Here one can see the single row of collar trim, and also that it has nine buttons down the front. It can not be an altered SA or StL jacket, because of the number of buttons.

The original photo showed two men, Moore & Patterson, in such jackets, but the image size was too large to post here. I can post some of the pictures scanned from the unit history if there is interest (copyright issues seem OK, thanks for information). I may need to significantly crop or re-size them to meet the upload limits on this forum. However, perhaps interest in this topic has peaked.

[ncc1701]

I'm always interested. Thanks so much for your assistance. I'll be interested in seeing pictures as long as you're interested in posting them. Thanks so much!

YMOS,
Aaron

[dclarry]

I'm always interested. Thanks so much for your assistance. I'll be interested in seeing pictures as long as you're interested in posting them. Thanks so much!

YMOS,
Aaron

You are most welcome, Aaron.

I'll post some more images as soon as I can. The scanned images from the unit history are on a different PC, and will need re-sizing to meet the very restrictive upload limit on this forum, so they will not appear right away.

[bill watson]

Posting images from a book is generally allowable and falls under the "fair use" section the US copyright code, if they are for commentary, research, and education.


I honestly don't think, as a strictly practical matter, anyone's going to raise a copyright flag over posting this photo on this website, for a noncommercial reason, so people can satisfy their curiosity.

But "fair use" isn't carte blanche to use anybody's photos because you're engaged in research. "Fair use" comes to us from a different set of circumstances entirely. It is impossible to comment upon a copyrighted work itself if you don't quote from it or excerpt copy from it to explain to people why you are praising or criticizing THE WORK ITSELF. "Fair use" originates from the work of reviewers.

So if we were comparing "History of Battery F" to "Gone for a Soldier," we'd want to show people photos in "History" and Bellard's original sketches from "Gone for" and say which we think is more effective; that's classic "fair use." Or if you wanted to show why the photo makes "History of" a great book/terrible book for people to buy. But when you're taking the information for the sake of the information itself, you're not in a situation involving the "fair use" doctrine.

Make sense?

Simplest of all, sometimes if a work is new, all you need to do is call or email the author and say 'would you mind if we posted this to enlighten a forum discussion?' The vast majority of times you get a "sure, go ahead." The only people who are real private parts about this seem to be in the music business, which guards its lyrics like they were crown jewels.

[tompritchett]

The only people who are real private parts about this seem to be in the music business, which guards its lyrics like they were crown jewels.

As often they are. For example Mozart's widow very quickly bought back the rights to all his music immediately after his death. As his popularity rose after his death, she became fairly wealthy from those rights.

P.S. Thank you for weighing in on this issue with your considerable expertise in this matter. Your input in these matters is always appreciated.

[dclarry]

After numerous changes to image size, grayscale depth, etc, here is another image of an original Battery F member wearing a short-collar artillery jacket.

The image is of Private Levi S. Bowers from Bradford County, Pennsylvannia. I have cropped the image to primarily show the collar details.

This image is from "Ricketts' Battery: A History of Battery F, Ist Pennsylvannia Light Artillery", Sauers & Tomasek, ISBN 0-9678561-1-6.

I'll try and post some more, but the 38K image limit makes it difficult.

[dclarry]

Some more images of original Battery members from "Ricketts' Battery: A History of Battery F, Ist Pennsylvannia Light Artillery", Sauers & Tomasek, ISBN 0-9678561-1-6, plus a re-cropped image of Battery F's Moore and Patterson showing both men. These are useful for short-collar jacket examples.

Also of interest in two of the images are the forage cap rain covers. One of these hats actually looks like it's made of rubber and even has hat brass installed.

[POF]

While this is not an example of the "Volunteer" MSJ, I find this a very interesting picture of a modified jacket. The artillery man in this image from Larry Stevens' site "Ohio in the Civil War" seems to have removed the collar entirely.


http://www.ohiocivilwar.com/cbat.jpgJonathan Stafford Battery C 1st OVLA


Patrick Flint

[ncc1701]

Thanks so much for your assistance!

Aaron