Defarbing le' old Enfield

[clconboy]

Ive ventured up the ladder of reenacting the past year, and the last stop is defarbing my enfield.

I have searched the web and various other forums for some pointers and i just have one question.

Regt. QM how good is there defarbing process as compared to Zimmerman ect. ?

Thanks,
Chris Conboy

[vicka]

Climb a tad higher, search for Craig L. Barry's book on repro weapons, The Civil War Musket:A Handbook for Historical Accuracy-Lock, Stock and Barrel from the Watchdog. $28.00 worth of research that will answer your questions in the main.
Steve Sullivan

[clconboy]

ok will look into that

[Southern Cal]

That's good advice posted above about reading all the information you can get from experts on Enfields. Then you only have to defarb once. Lodgewood Mfg. wasn't mentioned above, but they also offer defarb services. Be discerning about the actual work performed by those offering defarb services. There are folks, for example, who state that up to a pound and a half of wood is removed from an Enfield stock while recontouring it to the correct pattern during their defarb process. What you're not told about is the arrangement with the manufacturer to supply partially finished stocks which are then contoured to an accurate Enfield pattern for this business's rifles they make for retail sales. Your out-of-the-box Enfield will instead get a "face lift" performed on the stock, the contour being corrected in certain areas to more closely conform to the original Enfield pattern. There is nothing wrong with this defarb process and in no way am I saying that the half finished stocks are not completed to an authentic standard. The point is that some types of advertisement could be construed as misleading and could possibly lead someone to believe they are going to get defarb work done on their rifle stock that's not going to be done at all. Another factor to consider when choosing someone to perform defarb work is that some gunsmiths offer a range of defarb work which the customer can pay for or not, depending on the customer's needs or their budget. Some third party "expert" may see such a rifle and jump to a hasty conclusion to the detriment of that gunsmith's reputation and business, that the gunsmith involved doesn't perform quality defarb work, when in fact it was the customer who only ordered certain work completed.

[clconboy]

That's good advice posted above about reading all the information you can get from experts on Enfields. Then you only have to defarb once. Lodgewood Mfg. wasn't mentioned above, but they also offer defarb services. Be discerning about the actual work performed by those offering defarb services. There are folks, for example, who state that up to a pound and a half of wood is removed from an Enfield stock while recontouring it to the correct pattern during their defarb process. What you're not told about is the arrangement with the manufacturer to supply partially finished stocks which are then contoured to an accurate Enfield pattern for this business's rifles they make for retail sales. Your out-of-the-box Enfield will instead get a "face lift" performed on the stock, the contour being corrected in certain areas to more closely conform to the original Enfield pattern. There is nothing wrong with this defarb process and in no way am I saying that the half finished stocks are not completed to an authentic standard. The point is that some types of advertisement could be construed as misleading and could possibly lead someone to believe they are going to get defarb work done on their rifle stock that's not going to be done at all. Another factor to consider when choosing someone to perform defarb work is that some gunsmiths offer a range of defarb work which the customer can pay for or not, depending on the customer's needs or their budget. Some third party "expert" may see such a rifle and jump to a hasty conclusion to the detriment of that gunsmith's reputation and business, that the gunsmith involved doesn't perform quality defarb work, when in fact it was the customer who only ordered certain work completed.

Thanks for the info, I have been looking into various web pages and looking at period photos of original enfields (in the hands of federals ) over the past year or so, but that whole cosmetic change of the stock worries me, not so much as it being "authentic" but quality of work, it may be authentic but I don't want crap.

[fifthnycav]

Call Terry, He defarbs Enfields, for a very fair price.

1-716-693-3239

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"Authenticity" is much like so-called "de-farbing" which is much like "beauty" as being in the eye of the beholder...

Meaning, IMHO, different lads and so-called "de-farbers" or "de-farbing services" do not see things quite the same.

Even the term "de-farbing" means different things to different people. For some, their gun is "de-farbed" by removing the modern Italian barrel stampings and reoiling the stock, and that is it. For others, a Sliding Scale of
Quantity and Quality based changes and alterations.

IMHO, I would suggest using the SEARCH features here and on the AC Forum to pull up both previous posts, discussions, and positive and negative input and opinions about BOTH the "concept" and the available "services" out there.
IMHO, one of the most common causes or problems and complaints comes from "failed expectations" expecting something and not getting it, or getting something less than expected.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Once Upon a Time, past builder of Civil War guns and retroverter of 4th Model Enfields to 3rd Model Mess


And yes, I have seen postings with really bad examples of poor workmanship... such as Italian markings ground off with the scractches of the grind marks left behind that the posters said were what they got from So N. So.
Maybe that is true, or maybe the botched work was actually done by the owner or poster, with an agenda to discredit or blame So N. So...
IMHO, boards and fora can be a quick way to attack folks with little or no way to prove, let alone check or challenge truthfulness or veracity.

[Jim Mayo]

In addition to what Curt said above, I suggest you go to the site below and look at some original enfields that are for sale. Tim Prince always puts lots of pictures of his guns on line and his descriptions are very informative. The AC forum has also hammered this subject into tiny bits and has some good information.

http://collegehillarsenal.com/store/

A few more suggestions: It would be nice to get a lock marked with a known supplier of Federal arms. I know the lock plates Lodgewood sells are of much better quality than the factory lockplates that come with the EA or AS enfields. They are a tad expensive if you are trying to keep cost down.

If you haven't looked at Geoff Walden's article on enfields check it out.
http://authentic-campaigner.com/articles/walden/enfield%20pages/enfauth.htm

You can also do a google search for "P53 enfield" and come up with some other good sites with pictures.

I recomend you decide what markings you want on the barrel, lock and stock. Many enfields came over with very few stock markings and if you elect to minimize the stamping on the stock it will save you money.

Personally I think there are people who do a better job with Enfield defarbing than Zimmerman. He is good on Springfields and M-1841s but I have seen a couple of his Enfields I didn't like. That was some time ago and he may have improved. I believe that was one of your questions.

Since you are using the gun for Federal use, ask whoever you pick if he has the US inspector stamp.

Whoever you decide to use find out exactly what will be done in detail and then use your own research to back it up.

Good Luck

[bob 125th nysvi]

to the Authentic Campaigner forum the gunsmith who actually does th ework for Blockade Runner explains what he does, how he does it and why he chose the markings he did.

Even if you don't go with him it is a pretty good 101 about defarbing an Enfield.

[Scooby_308]

Here is the page on the AC that Bob refers to:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6515


Sorry, here is the link for Blockade Runner:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8293

[clconboy]

Thanks everyone!

[Southern Cal]

Months ago, I sent a new Armisport 3-band Enfield to Regimental Quartermaster for defarb. I asked for London Armory markings. What returned was something unrecognizable from what I sent. The lockplate was very nice as were the barrel proof stampings. However, the lock plate was marked "Tower", not London Armory as requested. The stock contouring work looked like someone without any practice had used a dremel tool, and badly. Raised "whiskers" on the wood were in evidence at the points where stock contouring was done, and the entire stock was rubbed over the raw wood as well as the existing finish with darker stain, making the stock modifications stand out like a sore thumb. I had UPS pick up the piece and Regimental Quartermaster took it back. The replacement came several weeks later. The lock plate was London Armory and nicely done. The stock work and finish was very good, the cartouches on the top of the butt stock and underneath the buttstock were clear. The barrel proof markings were good. However, the stock cartouch on the side of the butt stock was faint, unreadable, and possibly double stamped. Not all the bluing was buffed off of the barrel bands, lock plate screws, and other screws. There were tool marks or abrasive belt marks on the barrel next to the bolster that cannot be removed. The underside of the hammer showed circular bright metal markings, indicating usage. The nipple orifice was dirty, and the threaded hole in the bolster where the nipple screws into was gritty and had what appeared to be carbon deposits, after using a Q-tip and BP solvent. The crown of the bore had a ding on one of the rifling lands, making the piece unsuitable for any accurate shooting. The interior of the barrel was fouled and cleaning patches wet with BP solvent came out black/brown and progressively cleaner as firearms using BP normally do. Application of rust inhibitor caused even more dark fouling to deposit on further cleaning patches. Having built my first muzzle loader in 1975, and shot more than a few since, I've never seen cruddy patches like this come out of an "iron" unless it had been previously fired and left uncleaned. I compared the condition of this barrel with my definitely unfired Armisport 2-band Enfield and I didn't get any fouling out of it. My opinion is that someone used a "used" barrel in making up this defarb of a supposedly new, unfired 3-band Enfield. I know Regimental Quartermaster tries to provide an honest service, but whoever is defarbing their Enfields isn't helping their reputation. Installing a used barrel with a filthy and damaged bore onto a new rifle, then passing it off as "defarbed", is completely unsat. Now I'll wait and see how this frustrating scenario evolves and how Regimental Quartemaster makes it right, which I believe they want to do since they have earnestly tried to already.

[Picket Post]

The defarbed muskets at the RQ are from James River. If you look at the RQ website, the lockplates they offer are the same as JRA, and an employee at the RQ confirmed they purchase their weapons from JRA.

I went to the RQ and they had two defarbed Enfields on the rack. One was a LA Co gun. The stock was light in color, but even and acceptable. The other gun was a Barnett. The Barnett stock had dark streaks running against the grain, and looked really bad.

The metal work on both looked good. My only beef is the hammers are stock Armi-sport hammers.

[Southern Cal]

Well, then I guess I won't be using "James River" for defarb work or any other business based on the condition of my own "iron".

Does that essentially leave Lodgewood Mfg., Mr. John Zimmerman, and Mr. Schultz of Company Quartermaster?

Question: Where does one find a more correct hammer for an Enfield other than buying an original?

[FloridaBummer]

"The interior of the barrel was fouled and cleaning patches wet with BP solvent came out black/brown and progressively cleaner as firearms using BP normally do. Application of rust inhibitor caused even more dark fouling to deposit on further cleaning patches."

Lawrence;
Thats interesting, as I experienced the same thing. But I cleaned the barrel out rather quickly as dirty firearms are a pet peeve of mine. I had to do a little buffing on the bands but everything came out nicely. The bluing job was flawless and looked great. I did notice some wood shavings on the gun but that was quickly cleaned off.
I had two guns defarbed by James River. My Euroarms Springfield turned into a 1862 Bridesburg, using an original Bridesburg plate, and of course my trusty p53.
I was a little peeved at the barrel being fouled, but I do know for a fact it was the original barrel because I had P53 proofmarks on their from a previous (minimal) defarb by Lodgewood Mfg.

Chris;
Whoever you go with on this project, just make sure you heed the advice from the boards, here and the AC. Do that research;-)! And of course those that have done it in the past. You'll be happy you did this in the long run.
I made many mistakes in the defarbing primarily because I didn't do enough research, and I'm wondering why my musket wasn't reduced down to a sliver of wood and some metal filings;-)
Good luck with your choices!
Kindest Regards;

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

The defarbed muskets at the RQ are from James River. If you look at the RQ website, the lockplates they offer are the same as JRA, and an employee at the RQ confirmed they purchase their weapons from JRA.

I went to the RQ and they had two defarbed Enfields on the rack. One was a LA Co gun. The stock was light in color, but even and acceptable. The other gun was a Barnett. The Barnett stock had dark streaks running against the grain, and looked really bad.

The metal work on both looked good. My only beef is the hammers are stock Armi-sport hammers.

Note: Just because the Regimental Quartermaster (RQ) has a business relationship with James River Armory (JRA) does not necessarily mean that the rifle in question is a product of JRA. I would be careful with assumptions that the rifle is a product of JRA, unless you have evidence to back up a bold statement like that.

Other note: In the very few original firearms I have had the privelege to look at, the proof marks have ranged from very light to very heavy, and I cannot see any consistancy in markings, and the strikings should really be less of an issue in defarbs as long as they are there...and correct for the pattern/model being represented.

Paul-2cents

[tompritchett]

Application of rust inhibitor caused even more dark fouling to deposit on further cleaning patches.

My gut feel is that the rust inhibiter had some form of phosphate in it and this reacted with residual rust in the barrel. I used phosphoric acid (the active ingredient of Naval Jelly) to remove rust that had deposited in some barrels because the host unit put out the fire before the event closed and we had a chance to clean the weapons (we were waiting to insure that there would be no more firing demonstrations). The rust reacted with phosphate to form a very black gunk which my fellow professor thinks is probably a iron phosphate complex. Check the ingredients of your rust inhibiter and see if some type of phosphate is not listed as one of the active ingredients.

[Memphis]

I can't believe that Enfield defarbing thread is over 500 posts long. It's a whopper.

[Sgt_Pepper]

Including the original post, the thread is 18 posts long. It has at this time been viewed 577 times.

[clconboy]

well make it 19, thanks again for the advice on where to go and what to read. i appreciate it!

[Picket Post]

Note: Just because the Regimental Quartermaster (RQ) has a business relationship with James River Armory (JRA) does not necessarily mean that the rifle in question is a product of JRA. I would be careful with assumptions that the rifle is a product of JRA, unless you have evidence to back up a bold statement like that.

Other note: In the very few original firearms I have had the privelege to look at, the proof marks have ranged from very light to very heavy, and I cannot see any consistancy in markings, and the strikings should really be less of an issue in defarbs as long as they are there...and correct for the pattern/model being represented.

Paul-2cents


well, I noted that the RQ told me their defarbed Enfields come directly from James River, and the RQ selection is the same as James River. Also, another gentleman in this thread noted he sent his Enfield to the RQ for defarb service and that service was provided by JRA. Im not sure how much more evidence you want/need. Seeing as my original "bold" statement was backed with evidence provided directly from the merchant, I do not view my statement as "bold" but as matter of fact.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

well, I noted that the RQ told me their defarbed Enfields come directly from James River, and the RQ selection is the same as James River. Also, another gentleman in this thread noted he sent his Enfield to the RQ for defarb service and that service was provided by JRA. Im not sure how much more evidence you want/need. Seeing as my original "bold" statement was backed with evidence provided directly from the merchant, I do not view
my statement as "bold" but as matter of fact.

And so I suppose since Regimental Quartmermaster (RQ) sent you a dirty rifle, then your logic is that James River Armory (JRA) is at fault for that too?

I see where your coming from, (all you have is your disapointment, the fact the RQ uses products from JRA, and that RQ told you this rifle was a product of JRA), but the vendor (place you purchased this work from) is at fault for the quality (or lack there of) job, not the contract organization who they told you did the work...my point is be careful what assumptions you start making!

It's clear that you have been let down, but I have yet to see a product purchased directly through JRA that wasn't 100% in workmanship...

I think someone's blowing smoke your way...

Paul

[Southern Cal]

Birchwood Casey "Sheath", now marketed as "Barrier" is the rust inhibitor I've used for many years. I downloaded the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for this product and there are no phosphates. This product reacts with strong oxydizers (like nitrates in smokeless and black powders) and this might be the reason patches soaked in "Sheath/Barricade" always pull out some light residual fouling from seemingly spotless bores of "irons" I've just cleaned with other solvent. The blurry stock cartouche was a minor defect on an otherwise nice looking stock and if that were the only problem, I would have been pleased overall with the defarb work. The used/dirty condition of the barrel and damage to the muzzle was my big objection. No one would send in a new rifle for work and accept in return one that's been used. The ding on the rifling at the muzzle, the usage marks underneath the hammer, and the dark bore prompted me to run a wet patch down the barrel to see if fouling came out. It most certainly did. All these observations showed that the barrel had been fired and left uncleaned. I've been shooting (and cleaning) "smoke poles" for over 30-years. I'm almost certain who performed the defarb work on the rifle in question but I feel it would be inappropriate to mention names on this forum, since there may be a perfectly valid explanation of the circumstances that I'm not yet aware of. I do know for certain that the vendor has gone out of their way to resolve the issue and provide what was originally ordered.

[Picket Post]

And so I suppose since Regimental Quartmermaster (RQ) sent you a dirty rifle, then your logic is that James River Armory (JRA) is at fault for that too?

I see where your coming from, (all you have is your disapointment, the fact the RQ uses products from JRA, and that RQ told you this rifle was a product of JRA), but the vendor (place you purchased this work from) is at fault for the quality (or lack there of) job, not the contract organization who they told you did the work...my point is be careful what assumptions you start making!

It's clear that you have been let down, but I have yet to see a product purchased directly through JRA that wasn't 100% in workmanship...

I think someone's blowing smoke your way...

Paul

Hi Paul,

For the record, I do not own a JRA enfield. The dirty enfield was someone elses post.

I went back to RQ this weekend and took a gander at what the RQ claims are JRA defarbs.

A LA Co enfield was on display with a bright barrel, blued sights and bands, and a case-hardened lockplate. The case hardening was very weak and had a dark grey color. The hammer was a stock Armi-Sport hammer.

A Barnett on display had a very uneven finish on the stock. While the lockplate did not have line engraving, the hammer, which was a stock Armi-Sport hammer, had the line engraving. The Barnett/London lettering was plain block letters. Not saying this is wrong, but the originals I have seen had a different script (Ive only seen two variations of original Barnett lockplates and I am by no means an expert).

I hope to pick up a JRA Potts and Hunt soon. The JRA Potts and Hunt lockplate is a very good copy of the original. I will have to replace the hammer when I find an plain fat hammer.

I am confident that the defarbed guns that are sold at RQ are products of the JRA. With that said, the RQ could be ordering these guns from JRA without all the work JRA usually puts into these muskets, thus lowering their cost.

[Southern Cal]

Today I received from Regimental Quartermaster a "new-in-box" Armisport P-53 Enfield to replace the one I had sent them for "defarb". RQ is also reimbursing me for the defective "defarb" work performed by "those people" that RQ contracted with. I've dealt with a lot of CW vendors over the years. Some are easy to deal with when a problem occurs, but many others argue or just put one off, repeatedly. The customer service ethic of Regimental Quartermaster is "Ace High". I never had to demand anything of the RQ foks, or argue with them in any way. I simply explained what was defective and returned the merchandise. RQ asked me how I wanted to solve the problem and they did as I requested with no questions asked. How RQ deals with their "defarb" contractor's quality control is their business, but I'm quite pleased at the outcome of my particular sitauation and am very impressed with the genuinely positive and helpful attitude of Regimental Quartermaster. In the matter of the above speculation about RQ not paying for some of the defarb work to save cost to themselves, I would just comment from my own observation of the piece, that when one orders a rifle finished "bright", one doesn't expect to find a good deal of bluing left half polished off of the screws and barrel bands. I don't know of anyone offering a "Rushed job" defarb discount. Let's see, JRA doesn't seem to be a safe bet for this pilgrim, who else is out there?

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Today I received from Regimental Quartermaster a "new-in-box" Armisport P-53 Enfield to replace the one I had sent them for "defarb". RQ is also reimbursing me for the defective "defarb" work performed by "those people" that RQ contracted with. I've dealt with a lot of CW vendors over the years. Some are easy to deal with when a problem occurs, but many others argue or just put one off, repeatedly. The customer service ethic of Regimental Quartermaster is "Ace High". I never had to demand anything of the RQ foks, or argue with them in any way. I simply explained what was defective and returned the merchandise. RQ asked me how I wanted to solve the problem and they did as I requested with no questions asked. How RQ deals with their "defarb" contractor's quality control is their business, but I'm quite pleased at the outcome of my particular sitauation and am very impressed with the genuinely positive and helpful attitude of Regimental Quartermaster. In the matter of the above speculation about RQ not paying for some of the defarb work to save cost to themselves, I would just comment from my own observation of the piece, that when one orders a rifle finished "bright", one doesn't expect to find a good deal of bluing left half polished off of the screws and barrel bands. I don't know of anyone offering a "Rushed job" defarb discount. Let's see, JRA doesn't seem to be a safe bet for this pilgrim, who else is out there?

Once again...Your'e making the assumption that JRA did this work...Have you contacted JRA, I'm sure they would particularly be interested in anything dealing with their name.

[Picket Post]

Once again...Your'e making the assumption that JRA did this work...Have you contacted JRA, I'm sure they would particularly be interested in anything dealing with their name.


I have sent 1 email and have left 2 phone messages with JRA in hopes of ordering an Enfield directly from them, and also to discuss the RQ issue, but have not heard back from them. My attempts to contact them began 6 weeks ago.

I understand where you are coming from Stonewall, and will agree to rephrase my previous statements; that the defarbs sold by RQ are being sold as JRA defarbs, the lockplates and case hardening look identical to muskets shown to me by people who claim to have purchased their musket directly from JRA, but their is no confirmation from JRA that they are providing the RQ with all of the defarbed muskets that the RQ sells.

If JRA ever returns my email or phone calls, I will ask some questions and convey the answers to you folks.

One posted asked if their is anyone else out there doing Enfield defarbing. Lodgewood does great work, but by the time you finish your Enfield you will have $900-$1000 invested in it, which is steep in my opinion considering you can find originals for a few hunder more. Then again, the base JRA defarb will run you close to $700, and you will still need to change the hammer and replace the rear sight. But for those of us that do not want to use an original in the field, I guess we have little choice but to pay. The nice thing about the JRA version is you get alot of work done for that $700, and you can throw in the extra $200 worth of work later once the checking account has recovered.

Good luck to all those in search of the holy Enfield defarb!

[tompritchett]

Since this thread has now devolved into accusations about the quality of work of a particular vendor without that vendor having a chance to response or without even absolute proof that the accused vendor was responsible for the poor quality work being described, I am now closing it in accordance with existing forum guidelines.