Black Powder ??

[toolmaker1967]

Greetings to all,
I have just started in the reenacting hooby and have a ????
After buying my gun 1853 enfield armi-sport I am itching to shoot it.

MY questions are,
I have not yet located a place localy that sells Black powder, but the two gun shops I have talked to say reenactors are starting to use Black Powder substitutes that they sell and are less corrosive and perform as good or better. The price is the same or cheaper.
Are black powder substitutes OK to use in reenactments.

I did a search on this topic and found nothing on this foroum.

Also is this gun OK for dear hunting , anyone have any experience with this?

Thanks
David
Kansas City, MO

[major]

David
Most of us use real black powder. You can get it mail order from Powder Inc.
http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/index.html
I suggest that you get together with several of you pards and order a whole case (25 cans) that way it works out cheaper and you only have one hazard surcharge to pay.
For reenacting I get the “Skirmish” powder in 3F.
You can hunt with the 1853 Enfield but you are going to have to sight it in first they can shoot as much as 6 inches high at 50 yards out of the box.

[pvt_jb]

Welcome to the hobby.

It is my understanding that the substitutes do not work well at all. The problem is we only pour the powder down the barrel and never compress it down with anything. Regular black powder still ignites well but the substitutes not so much in these conditions. Also, watch the smokeless and some other substitutes because they burn at a much high temperature and this can spell disaster for your barrel. Stick with the real stuff is my opinion and you have nothing to worry about. It is not easy to find for me either. I drive about 35 miles to get to the nearest place I have found.

For hunting with it is ok with a few added comments. First, get to know your gun well it is much more temperamental then a modern firearm. You need to find out where the sights are hitting and learn to adjust your aim accordingly. Along with the powder load that produces the most accurate shots (start around 60 grains and move up or down from there). Second, make sure to thoroughly clean and inspect your weapon when you are done live firing it. I have heard that lead can get stuck in the barrel (such as the last ring on a Minnie ball). A gentleman in my group was shot with such a ring many years ago at a reenactment.

My last piece of advice is for the hobby overall. I said up above to use the real stuff for black powder. But this goes for everything in the hobby. I find life at events much easier and more enjoyable when you do things as close to the way that they did it.

Respectfully,

Jeremy Bevard

[tompritchett]

MY questions are,
I have not yet located a place localy that sells Black powder, but the two gun shops I have talked to say reenactors are starting to use Black Powder substitutes that they sell and are less corrosive and perform as good or better. The price is the same or cheaper.
Are black powder substitutes OK to use in reenactments.

In the past, I have used two different substitutes before finding a store that did sell black powder. There was one that came in a white bottle, which I believe was called Cleanshot, that worked well and actually did produce less residue than black powder as advertised. It was also much more expensive per pound. I also tried Pyrodex, which I definitely would recommend that you avoid. The problem with it is that it has a high initial ignition temperature than black powder. The end result is that you will have a substantially higher misfire rate as your caps often will not be producing enough heat to set the powder off. I will not extrapolate about any other black powder substitutes as I have no experience with them.

[tompritchett]

Also is this gun OK for dear hunting ,

I know several reenactors that have used their muskets for deer hunting, so yes I believe that answers your question. If this does not answer your question, I would remind you that most state laws frown heavily on one shooting their significant others. :wink:

[jda3rd]

say reenactors are starting to use Black Powder substitutes that they sell

I would be wary of what non-reenactors claim reenactors are doing. Apparently these fellows want you to buy what they have to sell. It may be that in their location, they aren't legally able to sell black powder, but they want you as a customer nevertheless. I got burned when I first started in reenacting, by purchasing a black powder weapon (an H & R muzzle loading, sort of military looking "carbine" that wasn't a relica of anything) from a reputable gun shop in my area. I was told by the fellow behind the counter that they were selling more and more of them to reenactors, and that more and more reenactors were switching to Pyrodex, too. It was another couple of years before I could afford to buy a new weapon.

Buyer, beware. Take a pard with you for guidance.

Frank

[toolmaker1967]

Thanx Guys,
Pyrodex was the the substitute one of the gun shops tried to get me to buy. They used to sell black powder before regulations started changing. They could not justify buying a powder magazine for storage so they stopped selling it.
I have looked at powder inc website, just not crazy about dropping over $100 for the minimum of 5lbs you have to order. I will check around to see if anyone else wants to share a batch.

That settles it....I will stay with Black Powder. It just makes sense to keep everything as period as possible.

I do intend on deer hunting with my new 1853 enfield.

David
Crowleys 3rd MO infantry

[flattop32355]

Can you use a black powder substitute? Yes.
Should you use a black powder substitute? No.

Most events require BP and do not allow any substitute.
Then there are other problems, as discribed by prior posts.
Then there's the idea that the originals used BP, not a substitute, and we're supposed to be recreating what they did, not what is more convenient to us.

As for using a barrel for live fire: Yes, you can definitely use a safe barrel to do so. You need to keep in mind that it could lead to the possiblility of some lead bits still being in the barrel that could become projectiles during a reenactment (not a good thing, especially at the sometimes close ranges we shoot at each other).

Better to use a second barrel (that's what I do) dedicated to live fire, and the other dedicated to reenacting with blanks. You just need to keep track of which is used for which.

[RedkepiWA]

Hi

My son and I went to Wyoming from Yuma, AZ this January and I shot a 400ish lb. cow buffalo with my Parker-Hale musketoon. I was using a slick sided Pricitt style bullet I molded from a brass mold I got from Dixie Gun Works in 1974-75. The bullet weighs about 536 or so grs. and I used 70 gr. of 3FFFg powder. The bullet exited the buffalo. The buffalo is now in my freezer!

I have shot several deer in Oregon with the same bullet and 55gr of 3FFFg and the bullet always exits the deer. I love my musketoon and would say your enfield would be a fantastic deer gun! Good luck!

Pat Hillock

[bob 125th nysvi]

pyrodex and black powder.

While I haven't had the problems with pyrodex I only use it for live shooting so that may address the compression issue when firing blanks.

The problems with the pyrodex that I have encountered is it doesn't clean up as easily as regular black powder.

Never had a misfire with black powder so I'd suggest you set aside what the shops have told you (they are looking for a sale after all) and ask them what they'd charge to order you black powder (their suppliers have it) and also check in both CCG and Civil War Historian as there are black powder merchants and suppliers advertising in both. They'd be happy to sell it to you or to tell you the nearest dealer.

Have you joined a unit yet? Our unit buys it at virtually wholesale prices and then the members buy it at a dollar over our cost which goes into the general fund.

[wmkane]

The one warning I haven't seen:

Pyrodex, when it does ignite, has a very different signature. Black powder burns over a relatively long period of time, meaning that the force it generates never excedes a certain amount.

Pyrodex, on the other hand, burns quicker, and more completely over a shorter period of time. This results in a greater force on the barrel. If you are live firing, you are DEFINITLY risking damaging the barrel. The manufacturer's put "Black Powder Only" on the barrel for a reason.

[Frenchie]

Pyrodex, when it does ignite, has a very different signature. Black powder burns over a relatively long period of time, meaning that the force it generates never exceeds a certain amount.

Pyrodex, on the other hand, burns quicker, and more completely over a shorter period of time. This results in a greater force on the barrel. If you are live firing, you are DEFINITELY risking damaging the barrel. The manufacturer's put "Black Powder Only" on the barrel for a reason.

Backward. You need to consult loading data on BP and subs.

Black powder burns almost instantly, in fact, the entire charge of BP is usually consumed before the projectile really gets moving. "The force it generates never exceeds a certain amount" is true for everything, isn't it? BP produces less pressure for a given amount than nitros (smokeless) because it's less efficient as a propellant.

Pyrodex, Triple Seven, etc. all burn slower than BP. The pressure builds up over a longer period of time and that means, for blanks, more of an unrealistic "phwoosh" than we already get with BP blanks.

Oh, yeah, BP substitutes are just that, substitutes. If you blow up your gun shooting subs, you more than likely would have blown it up with BP too.

[jda3rd]

Frenchie,
I believe you are correct. In fact it was my understanding that while smokeless and other powders, including BP substitutes, burn, Black Powder literally explodes.

Frank

[Frenchie]

Frank, if what you mean is "detonation", then BP doesn't explode. BP and most of the subs are "rapidly deflagrating" propellants, a fancy way of saying "burns really fast". Detonation, when it occurs, just about guarantees destruction.

Here's Randy Wakeman's article: http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm

And remember, if you ask him, what you may/can/ought to/really, really oughta/absolutely must use in your muzzle loader will almost always depend on what the doofus behind the counter already has on the shelf.

[hiplainsyank]

David,

If you live in Missouri as your unit listed hints at, take a day, go visit Wilson's Creek, and then go to the Bass Pro World in Springfield. They carry black powder there (or at least they did a few years ago!).

Two benefits: you get to visit a great battlefield and get your powder, too.

[toolmaker1967]

hiplainsyank,
Went to Wilson Creek battlefield in early july. What an awsome place.
That is where my reenactment ambitions started.
I am in the Kansas City area.
I am trying to locate other people to share a batch of black powder.
Have talked to my unit comander and waiting for reply.
Our next outing is Pilot Knob, MO oct 21,22. That part of Missouri is absolutly beutifull.
David