Union Vests

[Joe_Nski]

I have a question regarding Union uniform vests. How common were they among the non-NCOs and Officers? Also, I see them advertised in Federal blue and sky blue, but have never seen a photo of anyone wearing the sky blue model. Was that a common regulation color or just another modern marketing ploy? Just curious.

Sgt Joe Niedzielski
10th Mass Volunteers

[Rob Weaver]

Military style waistcoats came in dark and light blue, and white. There are several photos of Sherman wearing a white one, and of Grant in dark blue. But that's not your question. Here's a good photo of a young man in a light blue waistcoat who's clearly not of such lofty rank.

[Cannoneer]

I have read through the 1861 reg a few times and see no mention of vests of waistcoats. Though I have seen many photos with the dark blue. This has me thinking again, time to go back to reading the regs again....:o :smile:

under edit:

Just went and read through the 1861 reg. Article LI sections 1442 to 1635 (Uniforms) Still did not see anything on vests. This should be interesting to see what I missed and where.

[Forquer]

I have read through the 1861 reg a few times and see no mention of vests of waistcoats. Though I have seen many photos with the dark blue. This has me thinking again, time to go back to reading the regs again....:o :smile:

under edit:

Just went and read through the 1861 reg. Article LI sections 1442 to 1635 (Uniforms) Still did not see anything on vests. This should be interesting to see what I missed and where.

Ted -

The reason you saw nothing spelling out specs on vests/waistcoats in the regs is that they were not an issue item. They were an affectation that was deemed permissable as a normal custom of the day.

YOS,

[Cannoneer]

Greg,
Thanks!

As to the color, any thoughts? The dark seemed to be the most popular or most photographed to me. I like the idea of a white one......:D

[tompritchett]

As to the color, any thoughts? The dark seemed to be the most popular or most photographed to me. I like the idea of a white one......

Given the dirty nature of Army life, there might very well have been a good reason for the preference of dark vests over white vests. Dark vests are better of hiding just how dirty they are over a white vest. :)

[sustudent]

In addition to buying a "military" vest, one should also consider the possibility of a "civilian' style vest. In that case, the color could be almost anything.

I have heard some say that when you are not wearing you coat/jacket/frock, you should be wearing a vest. It isn't in the regulations, but is considered to be the proper style for the time. However, there are no women or anyone to really be proper for, so. You can find photographs of men and their waistcoats. Syke's Regulars has a photographic study section

I have a kersey vest, but I typically keep mine for camp use (mother raised me to be proper) or the colder events.

Alexander Stowe
122nd New York Infantry

[chatrbug]

they may seem dark too because of the photo. some light things do picture dark.

i too have always heard that a man should never be in just a shirt, as that is improper.

[bob 125th nysvi]

Officers were responsible for acquiring their own uniform. So vests were not an "official" item but were very popular with the gentlemen of the period.

Before you go diving in and buy one for your impression consider a couple of things.

What rank are you, the higher up the chain the more flamboyant you can be. Remember if your a lowly Lt. the guy ABOVE you may not approve of such 'finery'. Lower rank means lower pay (and authority) and less disposable income so probably a plainer more common vest is better for your impression.

Who is your impression based on, just because you are an officer doesn't mean your wealthy, would you have enough left over after the things you had to buy to acquire a "frill". If not and you decide to wear one maybe a civilian vest from your closet at "home" might be the best option.

Not everyone wore vests, if you are portraying a particular unit see if you can find a photo, letter or diary entry that refers to an officer wearing one.

Were you just kicked up from NCO because of casualities or outstanding performance on the battlefield? You uniform "change" may just be adding the appropriate rank to your current coat.

[Lee Ragan]

I think we also need to keep in mind also, that not every private in any army came into service poor as a church mouse. Some of these guys could afford niceities like a military vest just because they came from what we might consider the middle class. Vests show up in photos of men of every rank.
I've almost always had a vest in reenacting and nobody has ever questioned the wearing of one. They sure help on those cold days and it was "proper", for a man to wear one when ladies were present (as opposed to being in shirt sleeves), which they always are at just about any living history event.

[Phil]

Civilians had been wearing vests with standing collars that buttoned at the throat for quite a few years before the War. As also mentioned before, excepting some of the more unique uniforms (Zouave, etc.) issued to the soldiers, vests were not an item issued by the military. Therefore, aside from the exception mentioned above, there really was no such thing as a "military vest". Granted, the style that buttons at the throat has a more martial appearance, but once again, was not an issue item, and was seen quite frequently on civilians wearing obviously civilian clothing.

Unfortunately, researching what colors are appropriate for a vest worn by a soldier cannot be accomplished by looking at what sutlers or vendors sell. Just remember, you've got a lot of choices to work with in terms of collar and lapel style as well as fabrics. I'd personally start checking out every photograph I could find of US soldiers wearing vests to get a general idea of what shades were most popular.

[bob 125th nysvi]

I think we also need to keep in mind also, that not every private in any army came into service poor as a church mouse. Some of these guys could afford niceities like a military vest just because they came from what we might consider the middle class. Vests show up in photos of men of every rank.
I've almost always had a vest in reenacting and nobody has ever questioned the wearing of one. They sure help on those cold days and it was "proper", for a man to wear one when ladies were present (as opposed to being in shirt sleeves), which they always are at just about any living history event.

not every one came from either the poor or laborer class backgrounds. But the vast majority of the men were not wealthy or even "middle class" either and if they had a family and any "extra" money it went towards the family.

That is why a lot of civilian vests show up. Most men owned one (like Sunday Meeting clothes, everybody had at least one set) and the family would certainly be willing to send it from home if asked.

But the concept that the soldiers somehow had a lot of surplus funds to spend on extra's is just not borne out by the economics of the time period (or army pay for that matter). The VAST majority of the population were of the labor/farm worker class. Think how much better off we are as a country today and military families still struggle to make ends meet and we still ship massive amounts of 'care packages' of the little things to our troops in the field.

And no, no one would question anybody wearing a vest in the ranks we have tons of documented evidence it was done at all levels.

The question becomes one of impression.

How many men in the ranks wore a vest? I've never seen a picture where the MAJORITY of them do, but you can look at a company street at a reenactment and there are more than a few guys wearing them.

Also you need to look at your individual impression. A 'background' story is appropriate to help you portray a CW soldier more convincingly. Research the soldiers of the unit you are portraying. Yes you might belong to a unit of dandies. You might also have been officered by a martinet who wanted his soldiers to look a certain way.

I'm not saying don't do it, just do it appropriately in a well researched manner and have a story for the vest you are wearing when you get one.

"Mom sent it from home" will do just fine. Just know where "mom" and "home" are and what they are like.

[DaveGink]

This may help. It's a vest photo collage I put together after doing a quick search of the LOC site.

These are all enlisted men from what I can tell (with only a couple being NCOs) and come from all branches (However I noticed they seemed extra popular with engineers and artillery). It seems to be a good mix of military style and civilian. And I do see a couple that could be light blue (simply based on how they match the trousers in shade) but obviously since we are dealing with B&W Photography it's any one's guess as to the actual color.

http://www.shadowlandstudios.com/images/Vest_Collage.jpg

[Rob Weaver]

Vests also serve the practical function in the 19th century of giving you pockets to put things in, pockets which you don't have to stand up to reach into or otherwise disturb the fit of your clothing. The sweater had not yet found widespread popularity (outside certain subcultures like those associated with sailing and the sea), so a vest gives you another layer of warmth when it's cold. I have a military style vest, and a civilian shawl collared vest. I wear the civilian one more because it was a gift from a friend, and the wool is really nice.
Dave: Notice the young man fourth row down, dark vest with vest and shirt collar open. He sure looks like a reenactor, doesn't he?

[Jim Mayo]

When relying on photographic evidence of wearing vests and how they were worn remember this. These fellows knew they were getting their picture taken and most were posing. They would have made themselves presentable by putting on the vest if they had them and buttoning them to suite. This may present a very different picture than would have been seen while in camp during a leisure moment when no camera was around or while the men were on work detail.

Remember the picture of White House landing where the soldier is standing in the water in his birthday suite? He is looking right at the camera but was posing in another manner. I wonder if he had a vest.

Just food for thought.

[7thNJcoA]

Men in the day did not let thier "braces show" it was considered a lude act to been seen in a shirt with your braces showing; therfore, many of them bought or were sent vests to wear in camp instead of wearing thier jacket all the time. The vest was also acceptable to alot of officers when men were doing labor ie, trench digging or constucting some quick fortification. I have found this talked about a few times in the book "Give it to them Jersey Blues!" by John Hayward.

[Rob Weaver]

There's a great story in an Orphan Brigade diary about a soldier digging a well. Although he was a respected member of the community back home, he was working barefooted, with his pants rolled to his knees, no coat, no vest, no tie, shirt open and sleeves rolled to the shoulder. There's a point where even the respectable say "The devil with this!"

[tompritchett]

Men in the day did not let thier "braces show" it was considered a lude act to been seen in a shirt with your braces showing; therfore, many of them bought or were sent vests to wear in camp instead of wearing thier jacket all the time.

The hundred dollar question is what did the lowly enlisted men do with those vests when they were on the campaign during the summer when they were marching 20 - 30 miles per day, especially if they had blanket rolls instead of knapsacks.

[jurgitemvaletem]

The hundred dollar question is what did the lowly enlisted men do with those vests when they were on the campaign during the summer when they were marching 20 - 30 miles per day, especially if they had blanket rolls instead of knapsacks.


I have never really noticed much of a difference in the heat when I wear a vest, which is most always. Ofcourse, I am not doing 15+ miles a day in full gear, but like I said, I don't really notice it.

[TimKindred]

The hundred dollar question is what did the lowly enlisted men do with those vests when they were on the campaign during the summer when they were marching 20 - 30 miles per day, especially if they had blanket rolls instead of knapsacks.

Tom,

I'm going out on a limb here, but I suspect that a great many of those vests got packed away with the rest of the regimental baggage like extra blankets, greatcoats, dress coats, etc, prior to the spring campaign.

Respects,

[Cannoneer]

Tim,

Some of the photos seem to have been taken on or near the battle field. Would they have had access to them even during the summer?
Not taking any potshots here, just thinking out loud....

Continuing the thought, hearing that most photos were "set up" would the vests be provided by the photographer??

[tompritchett]

Tom,

I'm going out on a limb here, but I suspect that a great many of those vests got packed away with the rest of the regimental baggage like extra blankets, greatcoats, dress coats, etc, prior to the spring campaign.

Actually, I was thinking more about in the knapsacks. Again thinking out loud, would you want your vest, which you paid for out of your own pocket, soaked each day with the sweat of the day's march, knowing that Army is not going to give you a free replacement once it is ruined. (I know that I do not wear my vest for that reason in the Summer whenever I accouter up for battles and drill.) However, if you carried it in your knapsack, then you could take it out whenever the commander decided that you were going to be stationary for a day or two and things become more relaxed.

[NoahBriggs]

Men in the day did not let thier "braces show" it was considered a lude [lewd] act to been seen in a shirt with your braces showing; therfore, many of them bought or were sent vests to wear in camp instead of wearing thier jacket all the time.

I am curious to know your source for such a broad statement. Even a quick survey of LOC photos and other references shows there was at least a 50/50 split of vests vs. non vests.

Later on I'll post some pictures.

[Joe_Nski]

Thank you all for a lively, informative, and entertaining discussion. I really enjoy and appreciate your input. Thanks!

Joe Niedzielski

[Jim Mayo]

Men in the day did not let thier "braces show"

Braces are one of those private purchase items that fall in the same catagory as vests. A survey of some of the LOC pictures showing work details will show men without braces (or vests). One picture comes to mind of the burial of bodies at Fredricksburg. There are a number of men who are not wearing either a vest, blouse or braces.

[Rob Weaver]

I've found that a vest doesn't take up any more room than an extra shirt in my pack, and is a welcome addition at the end of the day. I often don't wear it when it's hot, either. Under the quilted frock coat it's unbearable.

[DaveGink]

Men in the day did not let thier "braces show" it was considered a lude act to been seen in a shirt with your braces showing; therfore, many of them bought or were sent vests to wear in camp instead of wearing thier jacket all the time. The vest was also acceptable to alot of officers when men were doing labor ie, trench digging or constucting some quick fortification. I have found this talked about a few times in the book "Give it to them Jersey Blues!" by John Hayward.

While it may have been thought lewd, apparently there were a large number of men who didn't seem to care too much about that social rule. Any quick perusal of the camp photos on the LoC site will show many soldiers without coats/vests of any kind, with their shirts (and braces if being worn) showing. Even with officers present and knowingly being photographed. This seems fairly common in the photos of men eating and relaxing, as well as performing work details. And even in some posed group shots.

[7thNJcoA]

I agree with you that in camp they did not care but I have read many letters and Discharge papers that show soldiers being disapined for being out of uniform with thier braces hanging down and a high ranking officer walking by. It was as I have been told one of those unwritten regulations that was part of a gentlemen code. In camp a soldier was supposed to be covered and clothed at all times unless sleeping or on sick call. This tradition still carries on today. As a Marine we were quickly corrected when in public without a blouse and just a skivie shirt as this is being out of uniform. Unless for PT which then the uniform requires you to be in Utilities minus the blouse and cover. In the book a cited earlier a Pvt gets a firm talking to from one of his NCOs for not having a cover on and having his jacket unbuttoned when visiting a sutler. I do agree that during campaign and such those such rules went out the window. But you must realize that this time we were supposed to conduct ourselves as gentlemen at all times even though it is war.

[NoahBriggs]

I agree with you that in camp they did not care but I have read many letters and Discharge papers that show soldiers being disapined [disciplined?] for being out of uniform with thier braces hanging down and a high ranking officer walking by.

That says to me the soldier in question was busted for being a slob, since the uniform was to be worn properly.

It was as I have been told one of those unwritten regulations that was part of a gentlemen code.

Where did your source get their information? Not trying to start a flame war. I am merely interested in tracking down this particular tidbit to see where it actually came from, so it can be examined in its proper context.

In camp a soldier was supposed to be covered and clothed at all times unless sleeping or on sick call.

Right.

But you must realize that this time we were supposed to conduct ourselves as gentlemen at all times even though it is war.

Certainly the military is supposed to do first by example in terms of maintaining standards of professional demeanor. I feel, though, your statement assumes all those who joined were "gentlemen". Quite a few scoundrels, criminals, bounty-jumpers and the like found their way into the ranks.

[7thNJcoA]

lol yea def some shady charaters in every military! I was stationed in Bethesda MD when I was recovering from my wounds and visited the library of congress every weekend and read every letter and discharge paper I could for any interesting facts and I just recall hearing about this in a few letters. I must say being a reenactor I benifited from being able to go there and get my hands on so much historical data it made me appreciate what they went through even more and I suggest it as a good trip for any reenactor with some free time!

[Robert A Mosher]

While it may have been thought lewd, apparently there were a large number of men who didn't seem to care too much about that social rule. Any quick perusal of the camp photos on the LoC site will show many soldiers without coats/vests of any kind, with their shirts (and braces if being worn) showing. Even with officers present and knowingly being photographed. This seems fairly common in the photos of men eating and relaxing, as well as performing work details. And even in some posed group shots.

Dave -
This is not to pick on you specifically since my point is addressed to everybody, you just offered the best point of reference - but I think what is generally overlooked in this context is that gentlemen did not expose their braces or galouses in mixed company. So among the explanations for laxness in this regard (and in connection with other lax behavior) are 1) the absence of ladies, and 2) the absence of any gentlemen.

Robert A. Mosher

[DaveGink]

Dave -
This is not to pick on you specifically since my point is addressed to everybody, you just offered the best point of reference - but I think what is generally overlooked in this context is that gentlemen did not expose their braces or galouses in mixed company. So among the explanations for laxness in this regard (and in connection with other lax behavior) are 1) the absence of ladies, and 2) the absence of any gentlemen.

Robert A. Mosher

I completely agree. I was speaking strictly of soldiers in camp (with no women present) since the post I was replying to specifically addressed soldiers in camp. Interestingly though, officers being present did not seem to be cause for concern in many of the photos I've studied where the men were lounging or working in the shirts/braces. This of course could be based solely on the officer's will and how individual units were run.

[tompritchett]

Interestingly though, officers being present did not seem to be cause for concern in many of the photos I've studied where the men were lounging or working in the shirts/braces. This of course could be based solely on the officer's will and how individual units were run.

and whatever job they were doing prior to stopping to have their picture taken.

[7thNJcoA]

lol thier seems to be alot of that after all it was the most photographed war for a long time!

[RJSamp]

"Uncommon Soldiers: Harvey Reid and the 22nd Wisconsin March with Sherman" Harvey just got promoted to Brigade Commissary Clerk, he's a book keeper. In keeping with his new position, he feels compelled to write home and request that some shirts, a vest......be sent to him.

So he wanted to look sharper, nattier......and requests new civilian duds to spiff up his look.....

[bob 125th nysvi]

There's a great story in an Orphan Brigade diary about a soldier digging a well. Although he was a respected member of the community back home, he was working barefooted, with his pants rolled to his knees, no coat, no vest, no tie, shirt open and sleeves rolled to the shoulder. There's a point where even the respectable say "The devil with this!"

was made based on 'social rules' of the day not real life experiences. Something that many people forget.

When the land was cleared for my farm (establish 1840) and the wells dug, no one was wearing vests, social rules or no. And summer work in the high humidity was done with out shirts.

The same would apply to soldiers from a farm background in the CW on fatigue duty. Nothing on that they wanted to keep in reasonable shape (like a vest) was worn at that duty.

Today's "well dressed" rules call for certain items. How many times in a working or farming area do you see someone walking around in a suit?

Someone playing the proper "social class" would adhere to the "rules". When you is poor, you have one nice set of clothes (for occassions) and the rest of your wardrobe is what you can afford that is practical.

Social rules be damned.

[ThehosGendar]

Even with women present... This whole "shirtsleeves as underwear" thing needs to finally die.

http://www.jrwickerstysigns.com/sleevechess.jpg

http://www.jrwickerstysigns.com/sanitarycommishgroup.jpg

[Rob Weaver]

In our own world of casual fashion, many of the old rules no longer apply, at least in most places we frequent. I think emphasizing, and over-emphasizing the period etiquette rules sends the message "They weren't like us." Ironic, really, because the more I learn about them, it appears they were.

[DaveGink]

I ran across this image today on the LoC site, and it reminded me of this thread. At least 4 out of the 10 young soldiers shown are wearing vests. I wouldn't be surprised if there were others possibly hidden.

The photo was titled: Soldiers winter Quarters - Inside first line of fortification, City Point, Va (10 Boy soldiers)

http://www.shadowlandstudios.com/images/GroupOfYoungSoldiers.jpg

[119thNYSVdrummer]

The vest were not common among most privates because it was a private purchase item so the guy would have to pay to get one and due to the poverty of alot of solders you dont really see them.so the most common thing if anything would be a civilian vest but even then the guy would have to carry all his eqiupment so they would probably ditch the vest.

Thomas Montefinise

[Rob Weaver]

But I'll tell ya right now that the pockets are nice to have. And if I;m going to be ditching an uncomfortable knapsack, I'm going to want some pockets to carry my small treasures in. In that case, I'd wear the vest and lose the pack.