Euroarms vs Armi-Sport

[Tommy Bruce]

Ok I realize that I may be popping the top off of the worm can but I'd like to hear some feed back on which gunmaker you folks favor. I'm not looking to start a bashing contest, I'd just like to know some likes and dislikes to help make my decision on purchasing a rifle. Thanks.

[Jeffrey Cohen]

Euro-Arms costs more but the lock has a tighter fit. Also the internals of the lock are harder. I'm told the Armi-Sport has more accurate rifling and therefore shoots better.
As a former Ord. Sgt for the 14th NJ Co. H I had to rebuild more Armi-Sport locks.

[flattop32355]

It's mainly personal preference; some like the one, some like the other, some like neither, some like both. If you use the search button above, you can probably get more than one thread that discusses the topic in the past.

None of the Italian reproductions are identical to the originals, including stocks and barrels.

My personal preference is either, as both have advantages and disadvantages over the other, so I tend to base it on the cost I can get it at, and whether I'm going to defarb it.

[NoahBriggs]

Bernard's post sums it up right well there, folks.

[bob 125th nysvi]

1861 Springfield. I love it and it has never given me one once of trouble that I didn't cause myself (read failure to properly clean the gun).

I have used it both for reenacting and live firing. It is solid, takes a fair amount of abuse and continues to function and I find it easy to clean. I don't mind the extra pound or so in weight because of my size. if I was a CW soldier I'd have no doubts about trusting it to keep me out of trouble.

Part of your choice will depend on what plans you have for the gun. I understand from gunsmiths/defarbers I have talked to that the Armi Sport Enfield is the preferred weapon to defarb because it is closer the original specifications (thus easier to defarb) than the Euroarms is. If you want an Enfield and are thinking of having it defarbed in the future you may want to lean toward the Armi Sport.

[Regular3]

I had a Euroarms Enfield for several years until I traded it in for my current Euroarms 1855 Springfield. I never had a complaint about either of those, except for the way EA treats the Maynard system - unlike Armi Sport, the primer door doesn't even open, but that's a purely cosmetic complaint that has no bearing on its reliability.

On the other hand, my son had an Armi Sport Enfield that didn't seem to be quite as good as my EA model, but still not what you'd call a bad piece.

Kinda like most consumer goods: A matter of preference and price - Euroarms' muskets do tend to be a bit more expensive.

[Picket Post]

well, alot depends on the model.

A.S. Enfields are by far a more accurate representation of the P-53 than the Euro version. That said, alot of work must be done to the A.S. to make it really look like an original. See

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/1864/enf/enfauth.htm

for an explaination. Somethngs can not be changed, such as the weight/thickness of the barrel.

Neither A.S or Euro makes an out-of-the-box authentic weapon. Some models are closer than others, but fail in the details

[7thNJcoA]

I like the AS springfield it is cheaper and if you are going to defarb it you can use the extra you wouldve spent on a Euroarms and defarb it. The reason why we have to defarb is becuase they make the weapon as a Modern Factory reproduction so they put thier stamps on it and all the stocks are machined and some seem to weigh more than others you can simply sand it down a little and refinish the stock and Alot of weight comes off it. Defarbing is not as tough as people make it seem with a few simple tools its quite easy. The most expensive part is buying the tools to defarb it... My suggestion is the company or brigade all take up a collection the the tools and such and you can do it to all the weapons if youde like. I have both an AS an Euroarms springfield that I shoot live with and I think they both shoot fairly the same the AS does seem to be just a slight more accurate

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

As shared, there is a great deal of personal preference and druthers, in the perceived "Historical Value" and "Bang for the Buck Spent."
And not everyone's mileage is the same...

In brief and to over-generalize:

In addition to the wood and metal finish, and Italian markings:

1. Quality Control varies (fit and finish vary).
2. A barrel that is heavier, wider, thicker, of a different taper, and off a few thousanths from .580. (and weighs almost two (2) pounds more than the original) Some Armi Sport barrels are slightly shorter than 40 inches.
3. A barrel that lacks the "V, P, Eaglehead" stampings for "viewed, proofed, and accepted into Government service."
4. A lockplate that is thin and inlet too deep (flush) with the lock mortise, and that is thin enough to be screwed down to the point of binding th einternals.
5. The lock "internals" are not always properly hardened, tempered, finished or polished.
6. A cone (nipple) that may have too small of flash hole. (so-called "N-SSA competition nipple")
7. A cone bolster that is squareish rather than gently rounded.
8. An Italian hardwood stock instead of American Black Walnut, of larger dimensions and proportions to accommodate the larger barrel.
9. A weak profile, thicker, and more squareish comb on the stock.
10. The hammer is shorter of a slightly different configuration than the original.
11. A thicker wrist on the stock. And a squared and not rounded comb profile.
12. Band springs with squared instead of rounded ends, and the stock mortising that are shallow and square ended.
13. A nose cap with a weak profile and indistinct features.
14. A butt plate with a short tang with a different shape, as well as a tang with a shallower curve. And the "US" stamp stamped incorrectly below the tang screw. It is stamped metal not cast, and the tang is flat not gently rounded.
15. Sling swivels that are screwed on instead of riveted.
16. The absence of the rectangular or sometimes oval two or three letter "inspector's cartouche" stamp (or sometimes two stamps) on the stock flat opposite the lock where the lock screws go.
17. Markings and stampings, such as the eagle motif, and year or production, year of barrel production, etc. that resemble but do not match the original markings.
18. Missing "U's" for "up" on the right side of the barrel bands (original bands have an internal taper that allows them to slide over the tapered forestock, so "up" is important...).
19. Metal used to be finished mirror bright instead of Period Armory Bright. However the newer Armi Sports have gone too far and "frost" the barrels now, which can be restored to a period sheen with a little Elbow Grease work.
20. Older EuroArms had thin metal stampings for buttplate, and the bands were thin strips of steel welded together instead of castings.
21. These reproductions vary a little among themselves over time, so some features may change a little depending upon how "old" the particular ArmiSport is. newer ones have the "V, P, Eaglehead," barrel proofs, and band "U's" (for this side "up"), rivets instead of band screws, etc.,

Armi-Sport M1861's have a reputation for misfires partially because of the bolster design (a 90 degree flash channel), weak mainspring, shorter hammer throw than the originals, and "N-SSA Competition" cone (nipple) with a pin point sized vent.

The internal lock parts are castings of soft, low-carbon steel, and not fit, finished, or properly hardened and tempered. As a result, they are soft and will not last as long as "originals."

All in all, when all is said and done, the Japanese "Miroku" reproduction is the "best" (hate that term) or "best of the worst." They are no longer made, but float around used.
Second Best, is the Euroarms because it is "closest" to the original M1861
(by degree only). Its lock will take original parts, which actually would cost more than the whole Euroarms Springfield, BUT also take reproductions of original parts for many years of no lock failures.

All that said, I used a reworked Armi Sport M1861 for my personal M1861, and ones I used to do for pards- having reworked it and marked it extensively (as far as possible) and replacing the lock with a Rich Cross reproduction dated "1862" and correct reproduction original hammer, and Rich Cross rear sight.

And a minor "Saving Grace," IMHO, is that the differences between AS's and EA's and the "original" M1861 becomes far, far less when not viewed or handled side-by-side with originals. So, in a reenactment sea of longarms, at 5-500 yards, it can be argued the problems become less or little or nothing at (except for maybe misfires...)

But, Beauty is in the eye and wallet of the Beholder, and others' mileage will vary...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Tommy Bruce]

So does anyone else besides Armi-sport and Euroarms make the Enfield or Springfield? Thanks again gentlemen

[Picket Post]

I believe there are a few folks out there that make customs, but they are priced out of reach for most.

Im new to this forum, so I hope Im not breaking a rule here, but check out James River Armory. I have not done business with them yet, but I hear great things about their weapons. They custom build Springfields, Enfields, etc using Euroarms and Armi-Sport pieces. Their lockplates look great, they offer many different contractors, and they are one of the few "defarbers" who actually slim down and detail the factory stocks to meet original specs (at least as close as they can get with the wood provided). Spingfields and Enfields run just under $700, which I believe is a good deal considering the base price of an out-of-the-box model and the labor involved.
Still, their is only so much they can do, and you will still have a barrel that isnt an exact copy. Personally, I can live with the barrel so long as the stock and lockplate look good.

Another note on Euro vs Armi. Ive read that original bayonets will not fit Armi Enfields (again, the barrel is too large in diameter) but they will fit on the Euro version. Im not sure if the same is true of Springfields. I had a Japanese Springfield (sold it like an idiot) and original bayonets fit it perfectly.

[Frenchie]

James River http://www.jamesriverarmory.com/index.html does great work. Also John Zimmerman http://www.edsmart.com/jz/ does "de-farbing". Classic Guns http://www.classicgunsinc.com/ does case-hardening and bluing and other work.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"So does anyone else besides Armi-sport and Euroarms make the Enfield or Springfield? Thanks again gentlemen"

Basically no.. For years, there have been "Armi Sport" and "EuroArms" and "Miroku" whose products have changed and evolved over the decades so that a 2007 EuroArms is not the same as a 1987 EuroArms.

However, it is tricky as these are the manufacturers, and they sell to American "importers" such as Taylors, Navy Arms, Dixie Gun Works, Cabela's at differing price and quality control concepts, who then have the piece surcharged with their company name.
So it may seem like one is getting say a "Dixie Gun Works" M1861 whenit was Miroku made. I must admit, it seems the some of the catalogs are better than years ago, and list the manufactures now.

The one exception was the British Parker-Hale Company that came out with a really nice repro of the Royal Small Arms Factory made P1853 4th Model rifle musket, M1858 Naval Rifle, and M1861 Artillery musketoon in the mid and late 1970's (although not a model used in the Civil War).
The Italian companies would then "reverse engineer" the Parker-Hale to make their own clones in the 1980's.
Parker-Hale went out of the "Enfield," business, however the Italians now make an Italian version they call "Parker Hale."

Occassionally, one can find one of the three Special Model 1861's made by the Italians, as well as the Italian made for Colt's Signature Series" floating around.

"Authentic" "custom-builts" sometimes float around the Underground, on Boards and Fora, Auction sites, or appear for sale on the N-SSA board- that are made to "specs" using refurbished original parts or exacting "drop in" reproduction original parts.
They can be pricey... say $1000-$1500.
However, mine from Once Upon A Time when I was a Civil War gun builder of M1855 RM's and R's series, M1861/M1863's, Richmond series, Fayetteville series, and Cook & Brothers occassionally pop up for $500-800- basically NOW the cost for the parts to build them.
A friend sold one of my (unfired) 1863 "S" hammer Fayetteville rifles for $400 a few years ago at a yard sale... (I would have bought it back had he TOLD me! Sigh...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Tommy Bruce]

Thanks Curt,

Sort of like getting a 2nd model Bess you can get Pedersoli or Pedersoli. Having toyed a bit with gun building I don't know how anyone could build a rifle for 800.00 these days.

[bob 125th nysvi]

So does anyone else besides Armi-sport and Euroarms make the Enfield or Springfield? Thanks again gentlemen

They are the only two manufacturers at this time. Most of the custom shops use their base parts and then modify them to be more accurate reproductions except the barrels.

The only custom made barrels I am aware of are not reproductions of the originals but made especially for NSSA competitions.

And as to cost between the two weapons in thier "defarbed" versions, well its minimal.

Maybe you should get to gether with your pards and get a chance to shoot both models before you make your choice.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"The only custom made barrels I am aware of are not reproductions of the originals but made especially for NSSA competitions."

Some yes, some no.

N-SSA barrel and stock makers "come and go." Foe example a 30 year pard of mine named Steve Jensco.

Steve used to make barrels on custom order basis so the customer could purchase what he wanted/needed.
For example, Steve supplied the barrels I used in both my "gun making daze," as well as 17 years of N-SSA competition.
He would typically cut the breech sections from original Bannerman type "cut downs" and then lathe turn the new barrel stock to original dimensions.
If the customer wanted say the "historical" wide three groove rifling and twist rate of an original, that is what Steve made up. However, if the customer wanted a modern 6, 7, or 8 micro-groove rifling with a faster twist to be able to shoot say modern wad cutter or semi-wad cutter design competition bullets, that is what he had.

I have lost track of the barel makers that have come and gone since the mid 1970's starting with Mike Yeck's machines that I followed sold to two or three other barrel makers, and then lost as they went out of business or sold to others. (Mike was a collecltor, a sutler/vendor, and also maker of M1861 and M1863 Springfields, 1862 Richmonds, and artillery and carbine versions of the Smith carbine in the late 1970's...)

I have been out of both the building and competing loop for a number of years, and Steve switched over to 19th century clocks (largely due to back problems that prohibit him from standing at a lathe). However, my guns, and Steve-built guns, guns built with Steve's barrels, as well as his loose barrels still turn up on a rare occassions.
The last one he made for me is an original reproduction of an M1855, stacked in a corner waiitng for me to swap it out for the 7 micro-groove competition barrel on the last gun I built, an 1862 Richmond RM ("period" except for what is in the bore...)

But yes, unless one is connected or able to find such barrel makers, or find an already built gun or "loose" barrel at a show or sale or board lisitng... most lads do not have knowledge or access of these limited and scarcer, dwindling resources.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[CivilWarBuff1863]

I got a Armi-sport Enfield and it hardly gives me any trouble. I like the weight, look and feel of the rifle. I never once complained about it although the touchhole does tend to get blocked up a bit from burning alot of powder. With that being said there's nothing much to say that as long as you keep it clean it'll give you no trouble.

[Regular3]

an original reproduction of an M1855, stacked in a corner waiting for me to swap it out for the 7 micro-groove competition barrel on the last gun I built, an 1862 Richmond RM ("period" except for what is in the bore...) Curt, if you ever want to sell that M1855, allow me to be first in line ;)

[Claude Sinclair]

I purchased an original 1842 Harpers Ferry for $650 four years ago. Very good condition and I use it for Living History events and used it at Rich Mountain and Fort Moutrie. Paid $600 for an 1861 Springfield. Used it also. Paid $900 for a P 1853 Enfield. Still use it. Paid $600 for an 1863 first type Springfield and used it. Used Gunbroker.com, auctionarms.com, and antique arms to purchase. I purchased another Harpers Ferry M 1842 and sold it. I have sold the Springfields also. Still have my Harpers Ferry and Enfield. Have purchased export Enfield Bayonets as low as $50 in excellent condition. Sometimes it just means shopping for what you want. Forgot to add that I purchased an 1861 full size Springfield at an auction for $400. It had about 3" of dirt or powder caked in the muzzel. Cleaned it and used it for a while and then resold it. All of this has been within the last 5 years.

Claude Sinclair

[Parault]

I own both Einfield and Springfield Maynard Tape Door. They are both Armi Sport. I had a little trouble with the Springfiled misfiring until I "adjusted" the nipple and flash chamber. I have not had any trouble out of either since then. Never owned a Euro Sport,so I cannot respond to that particular brand. I am very happy with my choice of musket manufacturer.