58 cal minnie

[7thNJcoA]

I was wondering if anyone can tell me where to get a good lead conical round that is .578 cal I am doing a firing demostration next month and am making repro cartridges but can not find the ammo I used to cast my own when shooting live but I stoped live fire for awile and moved.... As always things dissapear when you move!

[Sgt_Pepper]

Cheaper Than Dirt http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/

Dixie Gun Works http://www.dixiegunworks.com/

MidwayUSA http://www.midwayusa.com/

Moyer's Cast Bullets http://www.moyerscastbullets.com/

Track of the Wolf http://www.trackofthewolf.com/

[tompritchett]

If you are located in New Jersey, I would recommend a Saturday visit to Dixon's Muzzleloading Shop across the border in PA off of I-78. He carries just about anything that you would ever need for black powder shooting and does have a nice collection of original blackpowder weapons from Rev War up. Well worth the visit at least once. He is also hosting a major Gunmakers fair the weekend after next (July 27-29). For more information the website link is
http://dixonmuzzleloading.com/index.php

[jurgitemvaletem]

If you are located in New Jersey, I would recommend a Saturday visit to Dixon's Muzzleloading Shop across the border in PA off of I-78. He carries just about anything that you would ever need for black powder shooting and does have a nice collection of original blackpowder weapons from Rev War up. Well worth the visit at least once. He is also hosting a major Gunmakers fair the weekend after next (July 27-29). For more information the website link is
http://dixonmuzzleloading.com/index.php


Not to be flip or anything you all mighty Mod Gods, but i could swear that Tom owns stock in Dixon Muzzleloading.

( is the business good?)

[Marc]

If you are located in New Jersey, I would recommend a Saturday visit to Dixon's Muzzleloading Shop across the border in PA off of I-78. He carries just about anything that you would ever need for black powder shooting and does have a nice collection of original blackpowder weapons from Rev War up. Well worth the visit at least once. He is also hosting a major Gunmakers fair the weekend after next (July 27-29). For more information the website link is
http://dixonmuzzleloading.com/index.php

Tom,

Thanks for the location of a Blackpowder Shop. Since moving to SE PA I have been looking for a good BP shop and their web site tells me it appears to be a good one. (I don't care if you do own stock in it ;-)

[tompritchett]

Not to be flip or anything you all mighty Mod Gods, but i could swear that Tom owns stock in Dixon Muzzleloading.

I wish. It is a family owned and family run shop. I just like to support businesses that still believe in customer service. It is such a rarity now a days.

[1stTexas]

Moyer's .58 cal. cast minie bullets are .575" diameter. They load easy and shoot excellent. They are relatively cheap and you can buy a 25 pack for $6.25 or pre-lubed for $7.25 plus shipping from their shop at Madisonburg , PA. They are shipped in a nice little box that just fits in the lower compartment of your cartridge box tin. Moyer's do not have on-line purchasing but you can make a credit card order by phone. Check if they have the 58 cal. minie balls in stock before you order. They only make a limited supply of the 58 cal. minie balls and they sell out quick because they are the cheapest I have found and come in a nice little box instead of a plastic bag. Always check the minie balls for roundness if shipped in a bag!

Dixie Gun Works BU0901 .58 cal. cast minie bullets are .577" diameter for $26.50 for 50 minie balls in a bag. They are not lubed and they shoot excellent... with proper lube of course. However, all DGW supplies are slightly more expensive and have only a minimum order is 50 minies per order. Shipping is good since it takes 6 days to get them via UPS ground. DGW has some items that the yankee companies don't have and for that reason I buy swaged minies from them.They are the only company out of the above companies that have swaged minie bullets and the correct steel 5/16"-18 English nipples that fit the RWS caps correctly for my P.53 Enfield.

The rest of those suppliers listed above sell cast minie bullets in 25 packs made from Lyman molds. Minies made from the Lyman 575213 OS (.575" dia., Old Style) mold for the 58 cal. Springfield are good loaders and shooters. They have on-line ordering but UPS ground delivery is sometimes ten days... or more.

[CapitolGuards]

All minies are not created equal. If you only want something for display, then you can be a whole lot less picky; but if you intend to shoot and try to hit something with any degree of accuracy, you will soon find that these weapons can be very persnickety about accuracy.

A common problem is the skirts. Many molds make the skirt too thick, and it doesn't expand properly to obdurate (seal) the bore. The result is that the bullet tumbles, and you will see "keyholes" in or around the target where the round may have impacted sideways. Another problem is bubbles, or vacancies inside the bullet due to a cooled or improperly heated mold. Again the round will be unstable, and Lord knows where it will go.

Too thin, and you stand a chance of melting of a bit of it and getting leading or the infamous "lead rings" in your bore.

Original minies were formed and swaged from a solid rod of lead, not cast as most current day rounds are, so the QC of the bullets was much better.

By comparison, you can try shooting several rounds of cast round ball, and then the same number of the Hornady (swaged) balls, and take note of the clear difference in the consistency/accuracy of the rounds...

Tom

[1stTexas]

You are exacty right.

Lyman #577611 mold for .58 cal. minie has 2 grease groves, a smaller cavity thus a thicker skirt in order to prevent heavy powder loads from blowing the skirt off and turning the conical minie into a irregular round ball. The .58 cal. Lyman #577611 2-groove minie mold also will cast minies that are .577" diameter. The diameter is a tighter fit in the bore, the thicker skirt does not expand as easily into the rifling, it is more difficult to load and it should be used with 65 to 70 gr. 3F black powder. It is a tighter fit in a .58" bore for higher muzzle velocity. Contrary to what some may think, tighter bore fits create higher pressure and higher muzzle velocities especially for hunting. Loose bore fits can use 45 to 50 gr. 3F black powder and are easier to load. However, loose fits have excessive blow-by, less pressure and less muzzle velocity which is great for target shooting. If you increase the load with conventional minies with grease grooves, you risk blowing the skirt off because the lower groove gives the thin skirt a place to break and spin off when it leaves the mizzle. The type minie you use is a trade off between ease of loading and type of shooting one is doing. The Pritchett style swaged minie is easier to lube and is not as messy.

After experimenting with DGW BU0901, 3- groove minies, the Lyman 575213-OS, 3-groove minies, and the Lyman 577611 2-groove minies, I don't use anything but the .58 cal. Metford-Pritchett style .575" diameter swaged minies without any grease grooves. I like the swaged minie for it's accuracy, it's easy and fast loading using marginal lubrication with liquid Lee Alox AND I can effectively use it with a lighter load of 45 to 50 gr. 3F black powder. If I want to raise the powder load to 60 or 65 gr. of 3F, the heavier powder load will not blow the skirt off the Pritchett style swaged minie because there are no grease grooves to give the skirt a place to fail.

Jerry
Dallas, Texas

[Stephen Whitlock]

Since we are talking about Minie Balls, I was given a little plaque which states that the two Minie Balls on it are from a Civil War Battlefied(unknown) and that one is Confederate and the other is Union. The bullets are different as one has three grease grooves and the other two. How do you tell which is which.


P.S. I wouldn't bet on the story about them being authenic, but it does cause one to wonder,,,

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Herr Stephen..

In brief and to over-generalize...

There were a variety of minor variations in form, size, and weight for .54, .58, and .69 type Federal and Confederate "Minie" balls as they came from different arsenals and contractors.

Basically, the common Federal Minie has three equal spaced "grease grooves" while the Confederate Gardner has two and a wider band to reinforce the slit underneath where the end of the cartridge paper was inserted and crimped.

Depending upon soil conditions and environment, Minies may take on whitish lead oxide over timea s compared to bright "silver" just cast ones.
However, that varies. I have found white Minies from dirt piles at Greenfield Village from their "Muzzleloader Festivals" of decades past.

Here is a photo of some CS "Gardners" with a Federal Minie in the corner...
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/GardnerMinies.jpg

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[jda3rd]

Is anyone producing swaged Minies? Even though cast bullets may mic to .577 or .575 or whatever, there is still some variance. Swaged bullets are sized during production, and thus are more exact.

I guess reenactors live fire so little, it wouldn't make enough difference to matter.

Frank

[Parault]

I have been told by fellow reenactors that if you shoot a minnie you might have band separation, talking about the third band. I have only fired live rounds once out of my rifles. I have been shooting round ball so I would not have the third band separation. So according to the posts I can shoot .58 cal? If I can,do I need to get two differant kinds for both my Einfield and my Springfield? What about sabos? If I can,wouldn't I need to purchase about 6 cal smaller?

[jda3rd]

I think you might be making itmore complicated than it needs to be. With cast skirted bullets, there is a risk of separation of the base ring. There is less risk with a swaged bullet that has no casting flaws. It doesn't eliminate the risk but it reduces it significantly. Round ball is not a problem either. You can shoot .58 minies without trying to get into sabots and such as that. Check the N-SSA forums for hints on live firing, and maintenance afterward. Those guys do it in competition, as opposed to re-enactors, who rightly frown on introducing projectiles into the bore of the weapons they use for blank firing.

In my view, the ideal re-enacting long arm ought to be smoothbore, possible with false rifling for the first 2 or 3 inches back from the muzzle. I know folks that have rifled barrels for target shooting/hunting/whatever involving projectiles, and smoothbore for re-enacting.

That said, if you want to stick with a single barrel for your piece, get the proper cleaning tools, and MAKE SURE the bore is absolutely clear of any debris before bringing it to a re-enactment. With a little care, you can be safe. By being conscientious, thorough, and meticulous, you can be safe for others to be around. We can't be too safe.

Frank

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"Ideally" for "better shooting" you would want 2-3 thousanths under land-to-land bore size of your guns.
While .574/.575 was the nominal "standard" for "Minies" for both .580 Springfield and .577 Enfield, orignal swedged Minies run from .62 to .580.

The fly-in-the-ointment is that the Italian reproductions over the years VARY in bore, and usually vary on the high side. I have had some with bores as large as .581 and .582.
IMHO, if you are after accuracy, I would suggest having your actual, true bore miked and go with the .002 or .003 smaller Minie that fits that.
IMHO, if you are interested in just the "Period" experience of a live service round, go with a .005 or .006 smaller Minie than your Italian bore size whatever it is.
(However, looking at the range of sizes of what was suposed to be a .574 or .575 Minie in an .580 bore, ANY size Minie you find that fits in the bore will be "Period." With Period accounts of Minies that would not fit for being over-sized so noted...)

The U.S. Ordnance Department went to a smaller Minie so it would work in both Springfields and Enfields. Unless you want to be "more Confederate" and go with Blockade run or CS produced Pritchett balls, a "Minie" will work for both Springfield and Enfield.

I know of no commercial sources fro swedged Minies, although there were a couple or three lads in the N-SSA that built swedging machines in the Way Back Daze.

Speaking Confederate, they sometimes did cast Minies.
A problem with cast Federal Minies is that the nose cast process cuts off the pointed nose of the bullet- making them look different than Civil War Minies...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Who once fired over 20,000 "live" Minies in the N-SSA

[Stephen Whitlock]

Danke!!! Herr Schmidt!!!

If the bullets you show are real, then I have two authenic bullets even down to the flaring fron the gas pressure pushing the bullet out. The Union bullet has damage to the bottom as if it has been stepped on and the CSA shows the molding line like yours at the cup. Both show tamping on the cone/nose. This doesn't prove they were shot during the War, but it does show a difference. Is the Gardner still in manufacture today or the Union model? My bullets are exactly like yours,,,

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Losing a skirt is typically caused by poor casting techniques and lack of bullet inspection.
If the lead is not to temperature, or the mould not to temperature, as the lead flows into the mould it cools and starts to solidify as it reaches the bototm of the mould. This causes a "layering" effect often (bu tnot always) observed as squiggles or even "cracks" in what should be a solid looking bullet.
With the lead of the Minie being the thinnest at the skirt and hollow base cavity, as the powder goes off and the gases expand the skirt outward, the body of the bullet can separate from the skirt in one or more pieces.

Sometimes the loose ring(s) of lead are blasted out.
Sometimes the loose ring(s) or pieces remain in the breech. IF undetected and unresolved/unremedied, lead can remain in the breech. IF THE GUN IS USED FOR REENACTING, it is probable that the next blank charge can propel the lead skirt or pieces out as a projectile (bullet).

That is why lads fuss about using the same gun for live-fire AND reenacting.

The issue of segmented or mould casting flaws in commercial Minies is part of the same danger.
When lazy, I have purchased comercial Minies to hand out for school presentations (back in the Way Back Daze before lead issues). I have found
a few flawed Minies in every poly-bag of 25.
HOWEVER, most of the flawed Minies that separate (and often make a tell-tale whistle when fired) are the result of the individual shooter not casting correctly or not inspecting his rounds before using them. (and getting those first two or three before temps are quite right in the batch...)
IMHO...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[jda3rd]

Curt,
I bow to your superior knowledge and experience. You are correct, there is incredible variation in bore size and mold size. I've seen bullets that fit so tight that if there was the least bit of fouling they couldn't be put down the bore, and I've seen them with so much windage that they'd slip all the way down without a rammer. Good bullet lubing cuts way down on fouling, and eases loading. .002 to .003 is good. I had a sizing die made for my .69, and sized and lubed all my minies back when I was still shooting. I liked to use paper cartridges, and the few times I shot with the N-SSA, they had a good time talking about my "re-enactor bullets".

Those minies do make a distinctive sound going down range, don't they?

Frank

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Most all fired Miines are typically mushroomed, dented, squished, crushed, etc., etc.
Most intact or "nice" Minies are what is called "dropped" or lost before they could be fired.

I know of no one making true Gardner style Minies, although I seem to recall (???) someone making Minies with two "grease groves" although it is not the same due to the lack of the base slit for the cartridge.

There are a number of mould makers that make Minies (Lee, Lyman, Rapine, etc.) look for the "Old Style" Minie in the 500-510 grain range or so.
Due to modern shooting, particularly the N-SSA,there are many "improvements" and variations on the "Old Style" design as used during Civil War. For many years I shot the "New Style Minie" before switching over to a modern design 375 grain SWC (Semi-Wad Cutter) for competition.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Stephen Whitlock]

Mr. Schmidt, I thank you for that information. It appeears I have two authenic minie balls, one Union, amd one Gardner(South). I appreciate your time.

[1stTexas]

That is a good point about using separate muskets for live firing and for reenactments. A piece of minie-skirt could be lurking in the bore.

Track of The Wolf offers a .58 cal. Enfield 2-ring minie (BALL-57-MINIE) which are cast from a Lyman 577611 bullet mold and it appears the same as the Confederate Gardner minie. However, as I wrote before, the Lyman minie has a smaller diameter expansion cavity thus a thicker skirt for heavier powder loads. The 577611 minie diameter is .577" OD for a tighter fit requiring a heavier powder load for higher pressure and higher muzzle velocity. That minie is lethal up to 1,500 yards and is what I may use if I can manage to get a deer lease again.

Track of the Wolf claims their Civil War minies are designed to meet NSSA rules.

Their .580 cal. Springfield 3-ring (BALL-58-MINIE) Old Style minies are designed for 60 gr. service loads and may flare or blow off the skirt with heavier loads. It is .575" OD and is made from the Lyman 575213-OS (Old Style) bullet mold.

Their .577 cal. Enfield 2-ring minie (BALL-57-MINIE) Gardner minie was redesigned by Lyman's staff with a thicker skirt for 65 to 70 gr. loads. It is made from the Lyman 577611 bullet mold.

I have at least 25 each ramaining of the Track of The Wolf, Moyer's and Dixie Gun Works cast minies but I will only purchase the swaged Confederate Pritchett style minies that are .575" OD x 1.08" long in the future. I have two dropped Pritchett minies (Palmetto Ranch Texas- May 1865) and the new DGW swaged Pritchett minies are dead-ringers for them. I was concerned about lubrication of the Pritchett minies but liquid Lee Alox bullet lube solved that problem.

I have been using DGW nylon quick-load tubes for live firing but I purchased a bag of Savannah Arsenal's (Andy Smith) .58 cal. blank newsprint cartridge rolls and will try them with the Pritchett minies. Someone here was wanting to know how troublesome the rolls are for "authentic" live firing. I will soon know.

Jerry Coffee
Dallas, Texas

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"I bow to your superior knowledge and experience."

I appreciate the compliment, but... Please don't. There is NOTHING superior about my knowledge or experience. Whatever I may post, use it to evoke thought and questions, and move you on in your own research.

Just an aside...

The "flared skirt" problem comes from when the powder charge is too great for the thickness of the Minie ball's "skirt" (the thickness between the hollow base cavity and the outside of the bullet).
As the gasses expand and push the skirt open, it enters the grooves in the rifling and is spun. One does not want the skirt to continue to expand once the bullet has left the muzzle and the rifling. If it does, it can expand beyond the profile of the bullet and upset its aero-dynamic in-flight properties, "ballistic co-efficients," "cross-sectional stability," etc., etc.

And yes, the sounds of Minies are distinctive and remarkable. The low fps "buzz," "zip," "drone, 'hiss" and "whistle" of passing balls is a unique form of deadly music.

Reminds me of the N-SSA lads who put tape recorders down by the target frames to record the sounds.
Also reminds me of the lad who laid down three feet below ground level at a police combat range to hear the Minies passing over head. But I don't want to say that as some lad will try it and get shot.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[6th Alabama]

I don’t remember the details and no longer have a catalog, but S&S Firearms, Glendale, NY, made/stocked large diameter minie ball sizing/lube dies that would fit either a Lyman or RCBS sizing press. Years ago, some were ordered from them. They may still stock the things.

http://www.ssfirearms.com/

[tompritchett]

That is a good point about using separate muskets for live firing and for reenactments. A piece of minie-skirt could be lurking in the bore.

Several years ago, when I was an acting 1SGT, I was doing weapons inspections for a combined uint and did not like the sound of the ramrod pinging the bottom of one barrel. Needless to say I failed the weapon and the soldier went out with a loaner. Later that day, he recleaned the weapon and brought it over to me again. Again I did not like the sound (too dull of a ping if I remember correctly) and told him it would not pass. At the next event both our companies we were at, he approached me and told me about his rifle. Apparently, he had been live firing it and a part of a skirt had indeed broken off. Firing subsequent rounds had apparently melted the lead and caused it to form a layer in the back of the barrel. When he told his friend at home at his weapon failing my inspections, his friend removed the barrel and heated it slowly with I guess some type of adjustable torch. According to the soldier, once his friend had heated the barrel hot enough to melt the lead, it poured out the barrel. I personally did not witness this part of the process but only heard about when this soldier told me about it later when he actually thanked me for failing his weapon at the earlier event.

[tompritchett]

I appreciate the compliment, but... Please don't. There is NOTHING superior about my knowledge or experience. Whatever I may post, use it to evoke thought and questions, and move you on in your own research.

Curt, on this I will have to disagree with you. It is obvious that when it comes to Civil War weapontry, you have done extensive research. Therefore, your overall expertise in this subject is indeed superior to many, although individuals may have more expertise in one specific weapon due to their focussed research on that topic. And there is also more to learn. As I once heard it said, those that stop learning have started dieing.

[Parault]

I too Mr. Schmidt do applaud your knowledge in this subject matter. I have learned a great deal to several questions that I once had.

On a side note I use one of those cleaning jags that I bought from a particular Sutler that has items especially for Civil War era Muskets. The cleaning jag that I have is a jag for my Einfield. I also have one for my Springfield. If there is a peice of bullet still left such as a ring wouldn't it hit the part left over? Again I have only used round balls for live fire, but, using that particular jag,should hit the bottom ring & not let the jag fall to the bottom of the rifle, correct?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Thanks for the kind words.

"If there is a peice of bullet still left such as a ring wouldn't it hit the part left over? Again I have only used round balls for live fire, but, using that particular jag, should hit the bottom ring & not let the jag fall to the bottom of the rifle, correct?"

Herr P.L....

Yes, what happens is that a portion of the squiggly (not a Civil War Ordnance Department term but it works) segment or even actually circular ring of the flawed Minie ball (or Pritchett ball, etc., does NOT not get propelled out of the bore with the major portion of the bullet- and remains in the breech. Rather than be blasted out by the charge, the piece/skirt gets pushed back in the OPPOSITE direction (180 degrees about).

When a cleaning jag is used, or even a Period twisted prong wiper, the piece of lead or ring of lead gets pushed to the very bottom of the barrel.
This is more true for some repro's that use a curved-in or concave end of the breech plug, but still true even for a proper breech plug with a flat face.
(And at one time in the Past and they may still be around, there were repro's that used a breech plug that had a recessed hollow shaped face.)

Using a patched covered cleaning jag, any piece of lead will be pushed against the breech plug face, and yes, the jag will not go "all the way down"
(which it does not really anyways thanks to the thickness of the patch.
I have seen patched jags snag bits of lead and bring them up, but it is rare.
I suppose the owner could mark the cleaning ramrod with a "line" like some muzzleloaders do to show the "loaded" versus the "unloaded" depth that the ramrod goes in. But IMHO, there are a number of variables like a very flat piece of lead, or the lead is to the side of the jag between it and the barrel bore, etc. And a skirt may be only 1/16 or 1/8 of an inch or so wide, or less if a piece- over the length of a 39 or 40 inch barrel and who knows how long a cleaning ramrod....
Or, the piece of lead is in the "frosted window pane" of the breech plug face and barrel wall "interface." Meaning there is a 90 degree angle between where the two meet, that the patched and jag do not reach (that is where a flat bore scraper comes into play to get the coke build-up in the base of the 90 degree angle (or frost on the window pane look. I wonce debreeched several guns that actually had a solid formation of coke sealing the breech end of the barrel that patched jags never cleaned).

One of the Period "tests" for loaded weapons was "springing ramrods" where the ramrod was "pinged' or "ringed" off of the breech plug face- making a hard ring if empty or sounding the dull thunk of soft lead if loaded.
However, sending the tulip end down first may get it stuck in a particularly dirty bore. And sending down the small threaded end may miss a piece or skirt of lead lurking in the bore as it could be a piece, or a true "ring" that has fallen over, etc, and is not in "position" as it had been when on the flawed bullet.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[1stTexas]

As soon as I received my new Armi Sport P.53 Enfield rifle, and before it was loaded for the first time, I let the ramrod fall to the breech plug and I noted the location on the ramrod. I withdrew the ramrod (actually I did not mark an "unloaded" point on the ramrod because the ramrod fell to the breech at the bottom of the stud threads). I then loaded the bore with .750" of 60 gr. 3F black powder and seated a 1.080" swaged Pritchett minie ball (the mark takes in account the .180" depth of the cup in the ramrod tip) and and marked the ramrod with a .200" wide ring of white paint. The distance between the unloaded mark and the loaded mark is a nominal 1.700" , if the minie if properly seated on the powder. Since the white paint ring is .200" wide, it will allow for a slight variance in powder load, i.e.: 60 gr. to 65 gr.

These figures will vary from rifle to rifle and from ramrod to ramrod but the approach is the same. Example: I have two Enfield reproduction ramrods and one is .500" longer than the other.

Any amount more than the white mark indicates there is something in the breech or the minie is not fully seated on the BP. Any amount less than the white mark indicates less than 60 gr. 3F BP loaded. It seems that .150" equals 5 gr. 3F BP in a .58 cal. bore so you can check your powder load by using that figure plus the length of the minie you are using, minus the .180" depth of the ramrod cup. The Moyer and Lyman Old Style cast Springfield 3-ring minies are .950" long.

The original dropped Confederate Pritchett minie I found at the Palmetto Ranch battlefield in south Texas was 1.100" long. The swaged reproductuion Pritchett minies I use are .020" shorter because the nose of those is flat, (you can easily start a bullet extractor screw if necessary). If I had a drill press I would drill a small hole in the nose of each Pritchett minie so a bullet extractor screw would have a pilot hole.

[tompritchett]

Again I have only used round balls for live fire, but, using that particular jag,should hit the bottom ring & not let the jag fall to the bottom of the rifle, correct?

Correct. However, if multiple rounds were live fired and the bottom ring had been lost in one the earlier rounds, it is possible that the lead can melt to form a thin layer at the bottom of the barrel. It turn, this would mean that the difference in depth that the jag goes into the barrel may not be immediately noticable. This is again based upon experience in my failing a weapon with just such a deposit.

[Parault]

I was not even thinking about ramrod depth,nor melting of the lower part of the minnie ball at the breech plug,which makes sense. I think that I will place a small mark on the ramrods right now. I haven't fired either one in about three years.
I have really enjoyed the vital information on this subject. I have truly learned.