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bizzilizzit
07-12-2007, 07:52 PM
to be employees of the gentleman’s club during the Zoar, Ohio event – Sept. 15 and 16th. You need to be personable and at least 18 years old. Please PM me if you are interested in doing a different kind of civilian impression.
Elizabeth

Frenchie
07-12-2007, 08:49 PM
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/Darkfold_2006/stpaulygirl43tin.jpg

... I'm so there!

Exiting with great alacrity, stage left... :D

MissMaggie
07-13-2007, 02:46 AM
Sir,
If you want crazy, one of my teachers at school makes the St. Pauly girl costumes. Those skirts are reeeaaalllly short apparently and leave little to the imagination.

sbl
07-13-2007, 04:13 AM
Dear Elizabeth,

About time. We are so behind the Wild West reenactors and the Europeans.

MtVernon
07-13-2007, 07:23 AM
I don't know, but these days being behind the Europeans gives me great comfort.

hanktrent
07-13-2007, 07:35 AM
About time. We are so behind the Wild West reenactors and the Europeans.

I know. The military reenactors have so many ways they can get a laugh out of spectators during battles, it's time for civilians to catch up. Syphilis, poverty and alcoholism are so ROFLOL! :rolleyes:

Seriously, Zoar is only a few hours up the interstate from me, and if this were a dedicated attempt to realistically interpret the lives of women who did that kind of work, it would be amazing living history and I'd like to go as a member of the public, just to see it. I'm a fan of controversial, cutting-edge historic interpretation. If it's just another Wild West/Renfaire thing, no thanks.

I saw an excellent prostitute impression at a c/p/h event once, and she said the biggest problem she had was, the military reenactors expected her to smile and act friendly even if, supposedly, they wouldn't know her. So they didn't "get it." I was portraying her estranged father, so get your mind out of the gutter, my interaction with her was moot. :p

Since this is plopped in the midst of a mainstream event, I don't see how it could work without comic exaggeration, otherwise no one could even figure out what's going on. But I'd be curious to hear otherwise.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Frenchie
07-13-2007, 07:45 AM
I was being completely facetious, no disrespect intended. In actual fact, I got the impression that this is meant to be a serious effort, something like the inn at Harper's Ferry where food and (non-alcoholic) drink are served along with the history of the town's civilians.

If any of the ladies are upset, I apologize.

bizzilizzit
07-13-2007, 08:46 AM
Ladies and Gentleman,
My gentlemen's club is as realistic as any battle, with the exception of Pickett's Charge at Gburg at the 135th. At Zoar, I have the unusual pleasure of using one of the homes on the main street by the generosity of its inhabitant. Education regarding women's issues is not something I take, or portray, lightly. Mainstream or Progressive, I strive to inform the public, as well as reenactors, about the every day lives of women struggling to make ends meet, a fact most overlook or ignore. I have rules I expect my girls to follow. Areas are set up for the curious to examine articles and read. I have thirteen years plus of research under my corset. This is not a horse and pony circus show.
Elizabeth Topping

hanktrent
07-13-2007, 09:32 AM
Education regarding women's issues is not something I take, or portray, lightly. Mainstream or Progressive, I strive to inform the public, as well as reenactors, about the every day lives of women struggling to make ends meet, a fact most overlook or ignore.

That's great to hear. I'd like to stop up there as a spectator and see what y'all are doing. Interpretation of the lower/underprivileged classes has always been an interest of mine. Would Saturday afternoon be a good time to see y'all?

Here behind the scenes on the internet, I'd be curious how you deal with the problem of reenactors and the public taking it as a joke, the issue of it being so subtle it's not recognized or worse yet assumed to be real, how you integrate living history with static interpretation (girls realistically soliciting in character vs. talking about how prostitutes would have lived), etc. I don't mean to hijack this thread! If you don't want to discuss the interpretive aspects here, we can start another.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

sbl
07-13-2007, 10:04 AM
http://www.peopleplayuk.org.uk/guided_tours/circus_tour/images/adah_menken_animation.gif

Adah Isaacs Menken as Mazeppa

Now Menken would make a good person for someone to do an impression of.

http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:mvgHG1Rc2OYJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adah_Isaacs_Menken+Adah+Isaacs+Menken&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

"Education regarding women's issues is not something I take, or portray, lightly."

Elizabeth, Good luck with this event. Take photos.

bizzilizzit
07-13-2007, 11:34 AM
http://www.peopleplayuk.org.uk/guided_tours/circus_tour/images/adah_menken_animation.gif

Adah Isaacs Menken as Mazeppa

Now Menken would make a good person for someone to do an impression of.

http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:mvgHG1Rc2OYJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adah_Isaacs_Menken+Adah+Isaacs+Menken&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

"Education regarding women's issues is not something I take, or portray, lightly."

Elizabeth, Good luck with this event. Take photos.

Yes, as in Mazeppa, The Naked Lady, The Heller in Pink Tights. I'd love to portray her, but she went to France in 1863 and never came back. I'd only be able to be her at early war events.
Thanks for the good wishes - I'm sure someone will have a camera.
Elizabeth

sbl
07-13-2007, 11:58 AM
Dear Elizabeth,

Do will the hostesses be attired? Gaudy dresses?

sbl
07-13-2007, 05:12 PM
I don't know, but these days being behind the Europeans gives me great comfort.


Gee Joe,

Whadda mean by that? You hate staying out of wars, 6 weeks of paid vacation, and Universal Health care? ;) ;) ;)

MtVernon
07-13-2007, 05:53 PM
Gee Joe,

Whadda mean by that? You hate staying out of wars, 6 weeks of paid vacation, and Universal Health care? .

Nice try, but I'm not taking that bait! Try again.

celtfiddler
07-13-2007, 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by MtVernon
I don't know, but these days being behind the Europeans gives me great comfort.



Gee Joe,

Whadda mean by that? You hate staying out of wars, 6 weeks of paid vacation, and Universal Health care?

Don't forget the sky high taxes that fund all of that. In Spain $800 for a drivers license, 30% tax on new cars, just to name a couple of the ways you fund it all


Elizabeth,

If the event was closer, I'd be interested. But unfortunately starting a new job and living in MD......

bizzilizzit
07-13-2007, 06:42 PM
Here behind the scenes on the internet, I'd be curious how you deal with the problem of reenactors and the public taking it as a joke, the issue of it being so subtle it's not recognized or worse yet assumed to be real, how you integrate living history with static interpretation (girls realistically soliciting in character vs. talking about how prostitutes would have lived), etc. Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net


I’ve not had my gentlemen’s club setup taken as a joke, least not to my knowledge. People have been curious, interested, turned off, and yes, confused. If I portrayed a street prostitute, most people, spectator and reenactor alike, would not recognize the subtle differences in dress or attitude if, I do the impression properly. I’ve only tried once, and was too disappointed to try again.
A Zoar, there will be a sign hanging from the porch that was made for me by a resident of the village when I first did this impression there 6 years ago. Before anyone starts typing, no, brothels would not advertise, at least not with a painted sign. It serves two purposes – one to get people to cross the street and into the yard so we can begin a dialogue. Two, it will either draw people in or warn people away, depending upon how they, and family in tow, feel about such an impression. Brothels of the period used colored awnings, drapery, or lights in the window to advertise their business and if they were open. Again, this would be too obscure for most reenactors, let alone spectators, to grasp the meaning of.
I slip from first person to third, depending upon whom I’m conversing with. If I believe a reenactor gets it, or I’ve set up a scenario, then I’m in first person. Usually with spectator’s I’m in third person – it’s less threatening and confusing for them. And, some do not understand that it’s an impression, not a real life profession.
None of my girls run through military camps in their underpinnings – matter of fact, they can’t leave the property without being fully clothed, unless it’s an emergency or a pre-planned scenario. Make-up is required to fit period standards (no green or blue eye shadow and so forth). No foul language in the presence of spectators. No language to be used that might perk up young ears. Over the years, I’ve developed methods of answering questions that adults, with children present (and yes, it is usually THEIR children) ask that young children won’t understand. Spectators are never to be approached with anything but a polite question such as, “May I explain anything to you” or “Do you have any questions for me?” Approaching reenactors is another story, but I’m ever mindful of spectators that may be present.
Correct, this is a Mainstream event, and that alone might keep some reenactors away. Some will accept nothing than 100 percent period correctness. I don’t judge others on what they do, I only critiquewhat I do. I never pass up an opportunity to do this impression, as there are so few, where I can share my research with those who inquire and have a few laughs while I’m at it.
Elizabeth Topping

bizzilizzit
07-13-2007, 06:44 PM
Dear Elizabeth,

Do will the hostesses be attired? Gaudy dresses?

Dressed, yes. Gaudy, depends on your definition. Most likely, not.
Elizabeth

sbl
07-13-2007, 07:05 PM
Kimberly, Joe,

Joe, don't you understand the "winky" icons? I guess not if you take offence to what I ment about reenacting period "fun." How about American Wild West reenactors I mentioned?

Kimberly,

No kidding they have high taxes. Please read the "winky" icons.

I hope folks assume a certain amount of informed patriotism is shared by folks that do CW/WBTS reenacting and post here.

sbl
07-13-2007, 07:11 PM
Sorry Elizabeth,

"Do will the hostesses be attired? Gaudy dresses?"

I meant HOW will the hostesses be attired?

I read in either The Life of Billy Yank or What the Soldiers Wouldn't Tell about prostitutes being dressing in flashy bright dresses.

bizzilizzit
07-13-2007, 07:33 PM
Sorry Elizabeth,

"Do will the hostesses be attired? Gaudy dresses?"

I meant HOW will the hostesses be attired?

I read in either The Life of Billy Yank or What the Soldiers Wouldn't Tell about prostitutes being dressing in flashy bright dresses.

You're right - the lower class gals did wear flashy clothing and jewels, however, the middle and upper class dressed like middle and upper class ladies. That's why they were a threat to society - you couldn't tell by the wrapper who belonged where when they were in public.
The "real" gals, didn't have to contend with the weather and being exposed to the sun for 10 hours straight, as I do. Attire and footwear will depend upon the weather.
Elizabeth

bill watson
07-13-2007, 07:49 PM
Just as an aside, saw this done wrong at an event about eight years ago in New Jersey, with strumpetized surroundings, ladies in their nether garments playing cards and drinking, etc. Outrage abounded, both from other less comely and more uptight participants who were affronted by the pulchritudinous voluptuousness displayed by the young women, and from other participants who were affronted at the liberties taken with historic accuracy. It was a lose-lose situation, especially since, for the candlelight tour for the spectators on Saturday night, the spectators were pretty much too intimidated to stop at that station lest they be corrupted. A certain level of outrage developed among spectators with young kids, too, so we have the triple crown of bad situations, lose-lose-lose. The only winners appeared to be the men who were already with those women, and even they at times appeared to be having deep thoughts.

As noted, when done right the impression is so subtle as to be overlooked.

hanktrent
07-13-2007, 08:32 PM
I’ve not had my gentlemen’s club setup taken as a joke, least not to my knowledge. People have been curious, interested, turned off, and yes, confused...

Sounds interesting. Barring some scheduling snafu or last minute emergency, we'll definitely come up to see as modern visitors.



Correct, this is a Mainstream event, and that alone might keep some reenactors away. Some will accept nothing than 100 percent period correctness.

While not everyone likes mainstream events, I've never met a reenactor who "will accept nothing [less] than 100 percent period correctness," since of course that would mean, by definition, that they could never reenact. I think those imaginary folks could be set aside with the usual mythological lice-getting, rotten-meat-eating hardcores. :)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

sbl
07-14-2007, 04:54 AM
Bill,

I've found that when we try to recreate sex, pain, or death it can go wrong for us and the audience. Executions either get laughs or outrage. I had a woman ask to have the executed get up so that her crying child would see that he was OK. A flogging scene got folks cheering the flogger on. One incident had a woman with a break-away dress and a Brit to make it break-away. A late arriving participant thought ALL the participating women had break-away dresses and ripped a non break away dress.

The deaths and sexy recreations I've seen on European sites appear to be highly staged with curtain calls by the actors.

What I meant originally was that these groups had thought these things out in portraying "sex" and appear to be more relaxed about it by the photos they posted.

I've explained the prostitutes in movies such as Gone With The Wind and Pirates of the Caribbean to my daughter as "girlfriends."

bizzilizzit
07-14-2007, 07:58 AM
Don't forget the sky high taxes that fund all of that. In Spain $800 for a drivers license, 30% tax on new cars, just to name a couple of the ways you fund it all


Elizabeth,

If the event was closer, I'd be interested. But unfortunately starting a new job and living in MD......

Thank you, Kimberly! Perhaps another time.
Elizabeth

hanktrent
07-14-2007, 08:45 AM
I've found that when we try to recreate sex, pain, or death it can go wrong for us and the audience.

I totally agree with what you say, but there's got to be more to it. Ironically, almost every reenactment recreates pain and death by the dozens or hundreds. Everytime someone "takes a hit," it represents a man killed or suffering, yet that's almost always acceptable to other reenactors and the public, whether it's at an event where it's played for laughs or seriously.

Of course, as a separate issue, there's the contradiction of welcoming the public to a situation that many would work hard to avoid in real life. It's usually not considered a typical family outing to go see real-life carnage, or sex, or a rowdy male-only army camp or a disease-ridden prison. So unless the part of the past you're inviting them to is one that families would have gladly toured in the 1860s also, there's got to be some way to deal with that.

If people get in the "fantasy" mindset, you can get away with a lot because they know they're not supposed to think seriously about what's happening. Like when they watch a building explode in a special-effects movie, as opposed to what they thought when they watched similar footage of the World Trade Centers going down. That's probably what makes the standard battle reenactment formula okay.

But by definition, if people are just there to ooh and aah at the excitement, they won't be deeply affected by it; it's just entertainment. Which is fine, unless one is trying for the equivalent of, say, "Schindler's List" rather than "Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail" or "Hogan's Heroes."

So the question is, how can reenactors present topics like war, poverty, sex, violence, cruelty, substance abuse, mental illness, etc. in such a way to get audiences--even self-selected audiences--to be emotionally affected by the topic in a deeper way? I dunno. That's why I find the whole topic of historic interpretation endlessly fascinating.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

bizzilizzit
07-14-2007, 11:57 AM
Just as an aside, saw this done wrong at an event about eight years ago in New Jersey, with strumpetized surroundings, ladies in their nether garments playing cards and drinking, etc. Outrage abounded, both from other less comely and more uptight participants who were affronted by the pulchritudinous voluptuousness displayed by the young women, and from other participants who were affronted at the liberties taken with historic accuracy. It was a lose-lose situation, especially since, for the candlelight tour for the spectators on Saturday night, the spectators were pretty much too intimidated to stop at that station lest they be corrupted. A certain level of outrage developed among spectators with young kids, too, so we have the triple crown of bad situations, lose-lose-lose. The only winners appeared to be the men who were already with those women, and even they at times appeared to be having deep thoughts.

As noted, when done right the impression is so subtle as to be overlooked.

Sir,
If you are speaking of Camp Olden in the late 1990’s, I’ll take ownership of that one. I can’t remember the exact year I was there. Your opinion of the event is your opinion. Both the curator of the museum and the Mayor of the town came to me after the candlelight tour to compliment me on my gambling saloon scenario and to invite me back any time I wished. I must also say that I was invited by the civilian coordinator to participate in the candlelight tour as a gambling saloon – I didn’t just show up and impose myself on others.
That is another point I’d like to make. My hall, den, saloon, or club scenarios are never done without permission from either the civilian coordinator or the military coordinator or commander – sometimes both. Many times I’ve been invited to an event, specifically to do this impression.
I had some great interaction with the Temperance Ladies set up at the end of the civilian street during the entire event. I also had some wonderful impromptu scenarios arise with other reenactors during the candlelight tour, adults and children alike. The men seated at the gambling table changed periodically, as they came over from their own camps. Not all of them were “with” me.
Since this was a gambling saloon scenario, there was indeed gambling with period cards and fake money – No 20th century currency was allowed. You make it appear as if someone walked away with extra cash in his or her pockets. Also, there was drinking. I made a period champagne punch (and if you’ve ever had period punch you would know how disgustingly sweet it is to understand that this is not something you would drink to get drunk on). I made two bowls of punch, which were only served to reenactors (with the exception of the curator and Mayor) and said reenactors had to be 21 and prove it. Each person received one small ladle of punch – no one was to receive seconds. If anyone else who stopped by to play cards was drinking anything other than my punch or alcohol-free lemonade, it came from their own camp – not mine. Both the gambling and drinking were an illusion – much like battle scenarios.
I talked two soldiers into civilian clothing for that evening. One acted as my bartender, the other acted as, what we know today, a bouncer. Both men were to alert me to any inappropriate behavior or drunkenness. Had there been any problems, I would have contacted the Provost and had them removed.
One of my ladies did walk the civilian street, passing out invitations to the “opening” of the gambling saloon during the evening. She was fully and correctly dressed while she did this. My other ladies were dressed appropriately for a lower class gambling saloon. Yes, they were in their underpinnings, all five to seven layers of them. One had a shawl, and another a crocheted covering over their shoulders. The only bare flesh showing was arms, shoulders, and perhaps, on the bustier gals, some cleavage. Not one of those ladies was allowed to leave the “saloon” without getting fully dressed.
I don’t believe the physical appearance of any of my gals offended anyone – I believe it is more the concept of what they were portraying. Many of these same people are offended by sports bras and short skirts on women walking the streets, parks, and beaches in 2007. Different strokes for different folks. That’s what makes America so wonderful.
Elizabeth Topping

hanktrent
07-14-2007, 12:28 PM
My other ladies were dressed appropriately for a lower class gambling saloon. Yes, they were in their underpinnings, all five to seven layers of them. One had a shawl, and another a crocheted covering over their shoulders.

I'm curious about that. In the part of a business where the activity was primarily tables for gambling and a bar to serve drinks, rather than a place where you picked out a girl and went straight to the bedroom, would it be typical for the women to wear only their underwear? Could you share some period information on that?

Other than "My Secret Life," unfortunately this isn't a subject I know where to turn for quick access to lots of primary source descriptions or images.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

bizzilizzit
07-14-2007, 01:22 PM
I'm curious about that. In the part of a business where the activity was primarily tables for gambling and a bar to serve drinks, rather than a place where you picked out a girl and went straight to the bedroom, would it be typical for the women to wear only their underwear? Could you share some period information on that?

Other than "My Secret Life," unfortunately this isn't a subject I know where to turn for quick access to lots of primary source descriptions or images.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net


My Secret Life was published in the late 1880's. No one really knows who Walter was or if he existed of if he did, indeed, commit the outrageous acts he claimed he did. Since I've not come across diaries or letters from prostitutes or saloon gals, or any letters describing the clothing of the girls (indeed, I do have letters describing the acts they performed), I have to rely on publications, most of which were sensational literature, such as The Police Gazette, Ten Nights in a Barroom, Sunshine and Shadow of NY, The Nether Side of NY, etc. I also use period images from my collection to determine what, and how, clothing was worn in studio brothel settings.
Elizabeth Topping

hanktrent
07-14-2007, 02:40 PM
I have to rely on publications, most of which were sensational literature, such as The Police Gazette, Ten Nights in a Barroom, Sunshine and Shadow of NY, The Nether Side of NY, etc. I also use period images from my collection to determine what, and how, clothing was worn in studio brothel settings.

So you have a period description or image of girls at a lower class gambling saloon in their underclothes? Could you post it, or if it's a copyrighted image, a description or citation?

I'm trying to picture the context this would happen in. Big cities probably, and not small towns? Or in tough little river or mining or canal towns too? Or even in some farm-community low-class country taverns?

Today, we'd consider it about like Hooter's, as far as scandalousness and amount of flesh shown. I can recall it even being typical at mainstream events in the 1990s for female reenactors to cook in front of the public in the afternoon in their underwear, just because they were so hot (literally, certainly not metaphorically :) ).

I'm thinking that in the 1860s, though, it would be beyond even topless waitresses, and more like nude waitresses today, since they'd be subject to arrest just if seen, if law enforcement wanted to walk in. Not like the kind of low-class bars a "Ten Nights in the Barroom" alcoholic would hang out in, but sleazier and more oriented specifically toward the sex-trade.

But that's why I'm asking for the documentation to be shared, because I really don't know, and if the goal is to seriously teach/learn what this part of 1860s life was like, it's hard for me to know what's Old West cliche, and what was real.

Hope you won't take offense, but instead will see this as a chance to educate someone who's sincere about wanting to know the documented information rather than the cliches.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

bill watson
07-14-2007, 02:57 PM
Sir,
If you are speaking of Camp Olden in the late 1990’s, I’ll take ownership of that one.
Elizabeth Topping

Gadzooks and apologies, Miss Elizabeth, that was like a game of battleship inasmuch as I scored a palpable hit while shooting blind with no intention of hitting anything. It seemed to me that what you were describing doing in the near future wasn't anything remotely like that; I mentioned the Camp Olden thing as a foil, really. My apologies again. I think I find myself in a lose-lose-lose situation....

bizzilizzit
07-14-2007, 03:13 PM
Gadzooks and apologies, Miss Elizabeth, that was like a game of battleship inasmuch as I scored a palpable hit while shooting blind with no intention of hitting anything. It seemed to me that what you were describing doing in the near future wasn't anything remotely like that; I mentioned the Camp Olden thing as a foil, really. My apologies again. I think I find myself in a lose-lose-lose situation....


No harm, no foul.
I've grown and matured, so has my impression.
Elizabeth

Memphis
07-14-2007, 04:39 PM
Frenchie, thank you for the St. Pauli Girl image. :cool:

sbl
07-14-2007, 05:35 PM
Hank

There is this photo of a "Maison Close" with the women in what could be underwear, but what I think may be dance costumes.

L'histoire N°264, April 2002.

http://www.staylace.com/gallery/gallery07/graphics/maison_close.jpg


Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec 1895 has women in wrappers or just chemises.

http://jeanpierre.celeonet.fr/dotclear/public/.BlogLautrecSalon1_m.jpg


Constantin Guys 1802-1892 did water colors of women in full clothing but "casual" or exposing their lower legs.

Constantin Guys 1802-1892
Girls in a Bordello

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/BRGPOD/56198~Girls-in-a-Bordello-Posters.jpg

At The Brothel c. 1850

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/BRGPOD/163843~At-the-Brothel-circa-1850-Posters.jpg

Bazar de la volupté
ca. 1865-70

http://www.artnet.com/Magazine/features/cone/cone1-3-3.asp

Deus grisettes et deux soldats, c.1860

http://www.artandarchitecture.org.uk/fourpaintings/manet/large/m70.jpg

Cabaret Dancers

http://www.aspireauctions.com/auctions/2003MAR/details/2265-02.jpg

Scène de maison publique

http://www.freres-goncourt.fr/constantinguys/maisonpublique.jpg

http://www.dllc.unicas.it/sibilio/corso/guysestaminet.jpg


See The Tellier House series by Edgar Degas. Women in the nude which I coudn't link to here

hanktrent
07-14-2007, 06:36 PM
Thanks for those images! What a bummer that so many of the images have to come from Europe, but Americans are just that way.

What I'm seeing is that the images of women in underwear are generally shown in what I called a situation "where you picked out a girl and went straight to the bedroom," rather than where men are doing other activities like drinking or playing cards. Except these two, especially the first, which seems to be exactly what Elizabeth is talking about. The second might be evening gowns:



Scène de maison publique

http://www.freres-goncourt.fr/constantinguys/maisonpublique.jpg

http://www.dllc.unicas.it/sibilio/corso/guysestaminet.jpg


Wonder how that translated from France to America?

For example, I'm trying to picture, if I'm portraying my usual lower-class laborer, if he walked into a rowdy little small-city riverfront bar for a drink and some socializing, would he expect to see women serving in their underwear? Or would he only expect that if he went out of his way to select a whorehouse specifically?

It's ironic that women doing the impressions are generally the ones who'd have the most research (present company excepted of course Scott!), but men need just as much knowledge to correctly understand the nuances.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

bizzilizzit
07-14-2007, 08:46 PM
Hank

There is this photo of a "Maison Close" with the women in what could be underwear, but what I think may be dance costumes.

L'histoire N°264, April 2002.

http://www.staylace.com/gallery/gallery07/graphics/maison_close.jpg



These ladies are in their underpinnings. I have a few stereoviews from this series and the maid is helping the gals into their under garments throughout.
Elizabeth

bizzilizzit
07-14-2007, 08:52 PM
T
Wonder how that translated from France to America?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net


I have well over 100 period images of the type posted by Scott in my collection and not one of them, nor any of the others I've examined over the years, have been from America. Most are not claimed by any photographer, and for good reasons. The balance that are identified are almost all French, a few English. I'm not saying there were none made in the US, I've just not been able to locate any that I can say, without a doubt, were.
Elizabeth

sbl
07-15-2007, 05:47 AM
Dear Elizabeth,

I posted pictures of what I could find on-line that I was already familiar with.

At first I would say that the women in the USA wore the same clothes at the same time as the Europeans.

On the other hand, even with European immigrant in the ranks of "hostesses", there may have been a difference in the American Character that made them dress differently on duty.

There are photos that I'm guessing are later in the 1800s of the women posed inside or on the porch dressed in wrappers or loose gowns. Posing for photos may affected that costume.

sbl
07-15-2007, 05:53 AM
These ladies are in their underpinnings. I have a few stereoviews from this series and the maid is helping the gals into their under garments throughout.
Elizabeth


Dear Elizabeth,

This photo has puzzled me because it looks like the women are wearing matching underwear and the chemise appears to be worn outside of the drawers. (That's a research project I've been working on since 1990) I thought the women might be backstage but the surroundings looked to nice.
The chemise appears to be a darker color that the drawers. If there is anyway you could share copies of the other stereo views please send me a PM.

hanktrent
07-15-2007, 07:45 AM
I have well over 100 period images of the type posted by Scott in my collection and not one of them, nor any of the others I've examined over the years, have been from America.

Have you found anything in the more American sources you noted, like The Police Gazette, Ten Nights in a Barroom, Sunshine and Shadow of NY, The Nether Side of NY, etc., that mention the clothing of women in a lower class gambling saloon or something similar?

Here's the best description of a gambling saloon I could find from Sunshine and Shadow, but it seems grimly quiet and there's no mention of women:

http://books.google.com/books?id=wgh_deeIEUMC&pg=PA409&vq=gambling+saloon&dq=intitle:%22sunshine+and+shadow%22&output=html

This from The Nether Side sounds similar, again with no women mentioned:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7I8zwDxzQkUC&pg=PA95&vq=gambling&dq=intitle:%22nether+side%22&output=html

Ah okay, I think "waiter girls" in concert saloons or "waiter girl saloons" or dance houses, seem to be closer to what I'm shooting for, as mentioned here in Sunshine and Shadow:

http://books.google.com/books?id=wgh_deeIEUMC&pg=PA424&vq=%22waiter+girls%22&dq=intitle:%22sunshine+and+shadow%22&output=html

and here in Nether Side:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7I8zwDxzQkUC&pg=PA162&vq=waiter+girls&dq=intitle:%22nether+side%22&output=html

From that page: "The raid ending as usual, the saloons, after being closed one night, reopened with their women in scantier costumes than ever..."

and the next page: "dressed so as to expose the largest permissible portions of their repulsive persons..."

That's just from ten minutes of looking at those titles, so there's a good chance a better description of the clothing is buried in there somewhere, or in a similar book, to indicate whether women were serving in their underwear, or just very scanty evening dresses, outside of true brothels.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

sbl
07-15-2007, 08:52 AM
I tried "Police Gazette" and found ....

Deadwood saloon by Police Gazette artist, 1876 There are two women in the far right side..

http://www.dakotaexperience.org/cvfrontier/images/noflash_saloonpostcard.jpg

Unknown prostitute, Deadwood ca. 1890—1910

http://www.dakotaexperience.org/cvfrontier/images/noflash_prostitute.jpg


Their Sisters' Keepers
Prostitution in New York City, 1830-1870
Marilynn Wood Hill
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA PRESS
Berkeley · Los Angeles · Oxford
© 1993 The Regents of the University of California


http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft8199p209&chunk.id=0&doc.view=print

"John Allen's Dance Hall. John Allen's was one of New York's most
famous "secondary sex institutions," a place of public entertainment
where prostitutes could recruit customers. (Courtesy American Antiquarian Society)"

http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/data/13030/09/ft8199p209/figures/ft8199p209_00021.gif


http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/data/13030/09/ft8199p209/figures/ft8199p209_00008.gif


"..Harper's Weekly on August 8, 1868 published an illustrated story about John Allen, reputedly the "wickedest man" in New York. Allen operated a so-called dancing saloon much patronized by sailors and prostitutes..."

http://www.assumption.edu/users/McClymer/bedfordprototype/toc/WickedestMan8868DanceHall.jpg

Hope this helps..

bizzilizzit
07-15-2007, 09:07 AM
Dear Elizabeth,

This photo has puzzled me because it looks like the women are wearing matching underwear and the chemise appears to be worn outside of the drawers. (That's a research project I've been working on since 1990) I thought the women might be backstage but the surroundings looked to nice.
The chemise appears to be a darker color that the drawers. If there is anyway you could share copies of the other stereo views please send me a PM.

Have you ever been in a sutler's tent and looked at the ladies' undergarments? They do, for the most part, look the same. The corset shape would be the same, the closures may vary. The chemise and drawers might vary in trim, but have the same basic look.
As for wearing the chemise inside or outside of the drawers, that has been a debate between female reenactors/historians for years. Personally, I wear mine outside, for practical reasons, as I believe ladies of the period did. Those drawers are split for many reasons, bodily excretions and monthly occurrences being three of them. If you saw what devices were used for the monthly cycle, you might understand why wearing the chemise inside the drawers would be uncomfortable, difficult to keep clean, and most impractical. Not to mention all that material one would need to deal with on a daily basis with a chamber pot or outhouse.
Wearing the chemise inside the drawers also removes the modesty value of a garment that comes to or just below the knees. It gets bunched up from movement and can work itself into some very uncomfortable places. My vote is for outside the drawers.
All of the images I have of ladies in their underpinnings, show the chemise outside the drawers. Most often there is no corset. Sometimes there is no chemise or no drawers. Not to say this is the norm, as respectable ladies were not photographed in their under garments. I think it is a matter of personal comfort. Also, keep in mind, drawers were a new garment for ladies. With the introduction of the hoop, it was necessary to cover the legs. Many thought this garment too masculine, others felt it unhealthy, others belived it to risque for gentile ladies to wear. Younger ladies were more apt to wear them. Prostitutes as well, since they wanted to offer men something they would not get at home. Poor women might not be able to afford such a luxury. Not every woman then, or now, adopted drawers, split or whole, as a part of their wardrobe.

From a letter in my collection written by a soldier named Barnes to a friend at home March 3, 1863 (edited for this forum):
"She is a d_ _ _ fine lump of a woman. Don't belive she s_ _ _s at all. When she wants to do anything of that kind she brakes off a chunk and throws it away. There is one fault about her. She don't wear any drawers or didn't when I was at home."
He writes about another lady named Anna:
"She is a fine lump as ever straddled a [chamber] pot. She wears whole drawers but she is married now and her Husband found out how to unbutton her drawers before they were married, they tell me."

Elizabeth Topping

bizzilizzit
07-15-2007, 10:18 AM
Have you found anything in the more American sources you noted, like The Police Gazette, Ten Nights in a Barroom, Sunshine and Shadow of NY, The Nether Side of NY, etc., that mention the clothing of women in a lower class gambling saloon or something similar?
Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net


I've spent the last hour and a half searching through sources I have on hand for actual clothing description of ladies in Concert Halls or Dancing Saloon, specifically Harry Hill's and John Allen's, both in NY City, to no avail. Lots of general descriptions, nothing specific. It doesn't help that period books usually do not contain an index!
I did find this on-line, which I found interesting:

http://books.google.com
Maggie: A Girl of the Streets: A Story of New York pages 192 and 193

Pictures I can supply easily. Books, letters, diaries and etc. may be in storage - Moving from a four story house to a three bedroom apartment requires conservative use of space!
Sorry I can't locate more info!
Elizabeth

sbl
07-15-2007, 11:12 AM
Dear Elizabeth,

I've haven't been a sutler's tent lately but my wife used to reenact and I've helped her dress. I got into an argument with one sutleress over the stages of dress back in the 90s but I maintain, and my wife and several ladies in the hobby, that the chemise under the drawers "works". Past Patterns is now illustrating their drawers patterns this way. I wish I could post some of the period images here. I may creat an on-line album that I can link to.

One source I have is the novel Nana by Emile Zola...

NANA, 1880 (about the pre-1870 era)

Nana est un roman d'Émile Zola publié en 1880, le neuvième de la série Les Rougon-Macquart, traitant le thème de la prostitution féminine à travers le parcours d'une courtisane dont les charmes ont affolé les plus hauts dignitaires du Second Empire. L'histoire commence en 1868.


Chapter Five


".....Et il but d'un trait. Le comte Muffat et le marquis de Chouard l'avaient imité. On ne plaisantait plus, on était à la cour. Ce monde du théâtre prolongeait le monde réel, dans une farce grave, sous la buée ardente du gaz. Nana, oubliant qu'elle était en pantalon, avec son bout de chemise, jouait la grande dame, la reine Vénus, ouvrant ses petits appartements aux personnages de l'Etat. A chaque phrase, elle lâchait les mots d'Altesse Royale, elle faisait des révérences convaincues, traitait ces chienlits de Bosc et de Prullière en souverain que son ministre accompagne. Et personne ne souriait de cet étrange mélange, de ce vrai prince, héritier d'un trône, qui buvait le champagne d'un cabotin, très à l'aise dans ce carnaval des dieux, dans cette mascarade de la royauté, au milieu d'un peuple d'habilleuses et de filles, de rouleurs de planches et de montreurs de femmes. Bordenave, enlevé par cette mise en scène, songeait aux recettes qu'il ferait, si Son Altesse avait consenti à paraître comme ça, au second acte de la Blonde Vénus....."

"....Then he drank it off. Count Muffat and the Marquis de Chouard had followed his example. There was no more jesting now--the company were at court. Actual life was prolonged in the life of the theater, and a sort of solemn farce was enacted under the hot flare of the gas. Nana, quite forgetting that she was in her drawers and that a corner of her shift stuck out behind, became the great lady, the queen of love, in act to open her most private palace chambers to state dignitaries. In every sentence she used the words "Royal Highness" and, bowing with the utmost conviction, treated the masqueraders, Bosc and Prulliere, as if the one were a sovereign and the other his attendant minister. And no one dreamed of smiling at this strange contrast, this real prince, this heir to a throne, drinking a petty actor's champagne and taking his ease amid a carnival of gods, a masquerade of royalty, in the society of dressers and courtesans, shabby players and showmen of venal beauty. Bordenave was simply ravished by the dramatic aspects of the scene and began dreaming of the receipts which would have accrued had His Highness only consented thus to appear in the second act of the Blonde Venus...."



"...Cette fois, Nana ne se retourna point. Elle avait pris la patte de lièvre, elle la promenait légèrement, très attentive, si cambrée au-dessus de la toilette, que la rondeur blanche de son pantalon saillait et se tendait, avec le petit bout de chemise. Mais elle voulut se montrer sensible au compliment du vieillard, elle s'agita en balançant les hanches...."



"...This time Nana did not turn round. She had taken up the hare's-foot and was lightly manipulating it. All her attention was concentrated on this action, and she bent forward over her toilet table so very far that the white round contour of her drawers and the little patch of chemise stood out with the unwonted tension. But she was anxious to prove that she appreciated the old man's compliment and therefore made a little swinging movement with her hips...."


Another period source is from...


Corsets and Crinolines, Norah Waugh, Theater Arts/Methuen New York 4th printing
French text by GYP, Souvenirs d'une Petite Fille (1927-28).

GYP was the pen name of a writer who lived during the 1860s

1861 Longchamps (The race track)

"A big hubbub has occurred. It's an important prize. Women are climbing onto chairs. It's an ocean of hoopskirts that sway side to side, showing legs that at this time seem to me to be short and heavy, for the most part. Waists at this time, are without charm, too narrow between the too-well developed breasts and the too-big hips. This is explained by a deformation of the corset which makes them fashionable . . . At the end of the race, all the women brusquely lean forward, and the pressure of the hoopskirts against the chairs makes them sit up in back like a fan. Then we saw right up to the waist of the drawers which don't resemble each other like the legs . . . It's too hot and a majority of women don't wear the 'little skirt" between the drawers and the hoopskirt. I noticed, to my surprise, that which I had not before seen: little rags of material which hang ridiculously and pitifully. I pulled my uncle by the sleeve and showed him the objects of my astonishment. -What is this? -That said uncle in a somewhat discordant voice, is a chemise which comes out of open drawers. I repeated myself, more and more dumbfounded: -Open drawers . . . so, what good are drawers if they're open? Hearing uncle's brusque response, several women hurriedly got out of their chairs. I don't say "jumped" because, with the hard corsets, the whalebone stays, their movement lacked fluidity and rapidity."


Some of these sources are period or years later when the "cut" of lingerie was about the same with a chemise undermost. This style lasted into the 20th century up to WW 1 numerous strip tease postcards sets that I have found have the chemise under the drawers or no drawers at all or even humor od the chemise sticking out of the back of the drawers like a tail as mentioned by GYP and Emile Zola refering to the 1860s.

1892

http://www.alamy.com/thumbs/3/%7BCDB4C3CD-BB3B-4ACC-B3CB-C03D6403F9B4%7D/A9XCT4.jpg

1907

http://www.staylace.com/gallery/gallery44/paris_before_1907.jpg

1860s Danish prostitute

http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/sab/bergensposten2/newpag3.jpg


USpatent42677 1864.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ad/USpatent42677_1864.gif/277px-USpatent42677_1864.gif

USpatent131840 1872.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/USpatent131840_1872.gif/546px-USpatent131840_1872.gif

Could be chemise OVER drawers

USpatent63233 1867.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/USpatent63233_1867.gif

USpatent86340 1869.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/USpatent86340_1869.gif




Crinoline about1865.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Crinoline_about1865.gif

bizzilizzit
07-15-2007, 12:04 PM
http://www.mum.org/drawnocr.htm


http://www.mum.org/NorwPads.htm


These links are from the on-line Museum of Menstruation. Try wearing one of these with a yard of fabric tucked between your legs. I'd prefer not to. Others don't mind. I think tucking in your chemise, or not, was a personal preference.
Elizabeth

sbl
07-15-2007, 02:43 PM
http://www.mum.org/drawnocr.htm


http://www.mum.org/NorwPads.htm


These links are from the on-line Museum of Menstruation. Try wearing one of these with a yard of fabric tucked between your legs. I'd prefer not to. Others don't mind. I think tucking in your chemise, or not, was a personal preference.
Elizabeth

Dear Elizabeth,

Wow, the MUM site. Women went w/o drawers for 1000's of years wearing the chemise next to the skin. It could be that the MUM modern sketch shows the drawers WAYYYYY to tight. The real ones are huge and hang way below the crotch.

It may be apples and oranges or a more appropriate fruit, but I wear tight 18th Century breeches with my knee length shirt inside.

bizzilizzit
07-15-2007, 03:40 PM
Dear Elizabeth,

It could be that the MUM modern sketch shows the drawers WAYYYYY to tight. The real ones are huge and hang way below the crotch.

It may be apples and oranges or a more appropriate fruit, but I wear tight 18th Century breeches with my knee length shirt inside.


I don't agree with all of the observations posted by the gentleman who owns the MUM (so named for his mother, whose museum he continued, after she passed). I do think his drawing may show drawers a little slim cut. He does have photos of actual garments elsewhere on the site, minus the body. My reproductions are not huge and do not "hang". That may also be personal preference.

As for your last comment, Scott. I have to worry about wetting my fig leaf every time Mother Nature calls. I think it would be impossible for either of us to say what's comfortable for the opposite sex, unless we've had a physical alteration, no?
Elizabeth

OVI
07-15-2007, 06:38 PM
Elizabeth...IIRC wasnt there some civilian opposition to your endeavors at the last Zoar? As a scenario I mean..

Kent Dorr
"Devils Own Mess"

bizzilizzit
07-16-2007, 10:33 AM
Elizabeth...IIRC wasn't there some civilian opposition to your endeavors at the last Zoar? As a scenario I mean..

Kent Dorr
"Devils Own Mess"

I'm not sure what IIRC is?

At the last Zoar there was some weird personal issue with the old civilian coordinator so I set up a tent with the sutler's courtesy of Col. Perry from the ANV. The ladies who used the home last year were not affiliated with me, although my sign was used without my knowledge or permission. The woman who owned the home was told I was unable to attend, which was not true.
Elizabeth

tompritchett
07-16-2007, 10:37 AM
I'm not sure what IIRC is?

If I remember correctly?

bizzilizzit
07-16-2007, 11:39 AM
If I remember correctly?

Oh. Thanks. I am so not with the text message lingo. Does anyone speak or write in full sentences anymore?
Elizabeth

sbl
07-16-2007, 02:40 PM
"As for your last comment, Scott. I have to worry about wetting my fig leaf every time Mother Nature calls. I think it would be impossible for either of us to say what's comfortable for the opposite sex, unless we've had a physical alteration, no?"

Woooaaa.....Snap!

Guess I was being too graghic about wearing correct clothing correctly.

bizzilizzit
07-16-2007, 02:47 PM
Sent you a PM, Scott.
Elizabeth

uozumi
08-01-2007, 06:55 PM
What will be worn and what other activities will take place around this if we don't want to stay there the whole time?

bizzilizzit
08-02-2007, 09:13 AM
What will be worn and what other activities will take place around this if we don't want to stay there the whole time?

The Zoar website will give you a list of other activities for the weekend, such as a fashion show, wedding, etc:
www.zoarcivilwar.com

Clothing depends on your comfort level. You may dress as you would for a ball, maybe a little more over the top - just be mindful that there will be shrubs, a wooden fence, and porch that your skirts will come in contact with. Or you may dress in your underpinnings as long as your chemise comes below your knees and you are wearing drawers - corset is not necessary, but a shawl is recommended (keeps the sun off you and is a little more alluring). Any variation in between is acceptable since you will be confined to the property of the "brothel." If you would like to see what else is going on throughout the Village, you will need to be dressed appropriately in public attire. The lady who owns the house is kind enough to allow us to use her home to change in. My goal is to show the public the various ways women may have been dressed in different classes of brothels.
Elizabeth Topping

Linda Trent
08-02-2007, 07:44 PM
Or you may dress in your underpinnings as long as your chemise comes below your knees and you are wearing drawers - corset is not necessary, but a shawl is recommended (keeps the sun off you and is a little more alluring).

So you're saying that they went outside in their underpinnings? Otherwise, why would she need the shawl to keep the sun off her? This is really a topic that I'm interested in because I will have portrayed a prostitute at two events by the end of this year (though at the one, I wasn't actively soliciting -- I was just portraying another aspect of her life).

However, I'm not the real vibrant flashy sort. Personally, when I do my portrayals I'm fully dressed in a nice dress. One couldn't really tell the difference in dress between me and the good God-fearing church attending girl. It's more in the subtleties, the eye contact, the coy flirtatious movement, and that sort of thing.

Linda.

bizzilizzit
08-02-2007, 08:07 PM
So you're saying that they went outside in their underpinnings? Otherwise, why would she need the shawl to keep the sun off her? This is really a topic that I'm interested in because I will have portrayed a prostitute at two events by the end of this year (though at the one, I wasn't actively soliciting -- I was just portraying another aspect of her life).

However, I'm not the real vibrant flashy sort. Personally, when I do my portrayals I'm fully dressed in a nice dress. One couldn't really tell the difference in dress between me and the good God-fearing church attending girl. It's more in the subtleties, the eye contact, the coy flirtatious movement, and that sort of thing.

Linda.

The shawl is for practical purposes for 2007 - skin cancer and all. Yes, there were complaints of "naked" (could just have been immodestly dressed) women who were hanging out of windows and in doorways of lower-class brothels "harassing" passerby in cities.
Subtleties won't work in this situation - spectators are my prime target and something must catch their eye for me to get their attention in order for me to speak with them - hence my brothel sign (also, a warning for those not interested in this aspect of the CW to stay away). In addition, I cannot take advantage of the the woman who is kind enough to let me use her home as a base by leaving her windows and front door wide open for us to hang out in. I must be respectful of her property.
However, you are correct and in an event designed for reenactors, not spectators, I would dress as most prostitutes did (the exception would be the lower-class and streetwalker impression) and would look like any other lady on promenade and only my direct gaze and slight body gestures would indicate that I was trolling for clients.
Elizabeth Topping

sbl
08-03-2007, 08:16 AM
Dear Elizabeth,

I wish you all the best in your impression, but you are doing this impression in a "red" state. I tell my 11 year old daughter that the obvious prostitutes in movies the "Pirates of etc", "The Merchant of Venice", etc. are "paid girlfriends."

The dressed or undressed saloon girls at Wild West events can be explained as entertainers or dancers. You might have a lot of explaining to do to any curious kids and their parents in the public.

BTW how about having the women wear the "wrappers" you see in some of the period art and photos?

chatrbug
08-03-2007, 08:45 AM
those girls are wearing more clothes than most teen girls wear nowadays!

i always wondered why some women wore their chemise inside their drawers... i tried that once and found it most uncomfortable...and yes very hard to work around. so i wear mine outside my drawers. i also find it comfortable in knowing that if by chance my hoops end up moving where they shouldnt...noone will see anything (okay we wont discuss the petticoats under the hoops too!).

since mainly men read this... i wont go any further...

bizzilizzit
08-03-2007, 10:06 AM
Dear Elizabeth,

I wish you all the best in your impression, but you are doing this impression in a "red" state. I tell my 11 year old daughter that the obvious prostitutes in movies the "Pirates of etc", "The Merchant of Venice", etc. are "paid girlfriends."

The dressed or undressed saloon girls at Wild West events can be explained as entertainers or dancers. You might have a lot of explaining to do to any curious kids and their parents in the public.

BTW how about having the women wear the "wrappers" you see in some of the period art and photos?

Thanks for your concern, Scot, but I've done this impression at this event since 2003 - the brothel is even on the map given out to spectators - least, it has been in the past. I've heard parents tell their children that we are brides (that's a hoot - a bride every night, perhaps), that we are entertainers (that's not too far off), or that we are bad ladies that should be avoided.
Wrappers cover more of the body than ball gowns do - and most people, even reenactors, do not recognize them as dressing gowns, though I have worn one at this event.
Elizabeth

bizzilizzit
08-03-2007, 10:09 AM
those girls are wearing more clothes than most teen girls wear nowadays!

i always wondered why some women wore their chemise inside their drawers... i tried that once and found it most uncomfortable...and yes very hard to work around. so i wear mine outside my drawers. i also find it comfortable in knowing that if by chance my hoops end up moving where they shouldnt...noone will see anything (okay we wont discuss the petticoats under the hoops too!).

since mainly men read this... i wont go any further...


My understanding of the wearing your chemise inside your drawers method is thus: Pull the back of the chemise to the front and then pull the front to the back, sort of like a diaper. This will cover the open area of the drawers and will protect your "modesty" if you are exposed.
Elizabeth Topping

sbl
08-03-2007, 10:12 AM
Dear Dulcie,

Follow the "Miniatures photo galleries" link at the bottom of my post. It's a Photo Bucket site. Click to the Period Clothing galleries and you'll see the chemise inside the drawers method in images and photos going from the 1860s to the 1910s.

I have recently seen some photos from a private collection that look like chemise over the drawers for the 1850s. I have some images in the galleries that look like that method to for the 1850s-1870s. Let me know what you think.

chatrbug
08-03-2007, 11:10 AM
i had to ask around on this one...

its actually whatever you prefer. some women like them tucked in, some dont. i personally dont like it and find it gets in the way. but others do.

sbl
08-03-2007, 12:11 PM
Dear Dulcie,

I hope you could find the pictures. It may be that some women back then didn't wear drawers at all even when drawers were in style making the chemise still the innermost garment, protecting the outer garments from the body. The cut of drawers allow for all that material, not just flesh and bone, to go into the open seat. And the images plus the Zola and Gyp accounts (posted earlier) speak of the chemise tail being seen out of the back of the drawers.

It could be that Living History women are wearing their drawers like bike shorts or bottomless cowboy chaps which is why the chemise doen't fit.


The evidence is there for several ways to wear the period clothing. One can go by that if the clothing is made and worn correctly. It shouldn't be what people in living history feel comfortable in by modern standards. I'm sure that's not what you meant.

chatrbug
08-03-2007, 04:10 PM
i saw the pictures scott.

my drawers are rather loose and fit the style of the period, as does my chemise. there are many that have done lots of research that say you can wear them either way, everyone has their own preferences. such as someone now wearing bikinis or thongs.

im all for doing things the way they should be. and i do wear uncomfortable clothing at time (such as the wool in 90 degree weather).

sbl
08-03-2007, 05:34 PM
Dear Dulcie,

Well! Hurumph! Don't I deserve the use of the shift key?

chatrbug
08-03-2007, 06:08 PM
ummm... consider it an honour that im not using it... yah... there you go. okay, im a lazy typer what can i say. but if it bothers ya, i can use it, when i remember.

Linda Trent
08-03-2007, 06:40 PM
The evidence is there for several ways to wear the period clothing. One can go by that if the clothing is made and worn correctly. It shouldn't be what people in living history feel comfortable in by modern standards. I'm sure that's not what you meant.

This may be more information than people care to have, but I go without 95% of the time (as I've read older ladies sometimes did), or I go tucked. Personally, I find that tucked helps to prevent chafing, and also helps in modesty as it tucks around where, well, the drawers don't. :oops: This is particularly helpful when walking across open suspension bridges (like Wheeling), or when walking up open stairs in original log homes where people can be below looking up. :shock:

Linda.

Linda Trent
09-12-2007, 08:29 AM
Hi Ms. Topping,

Are you still planning to be at Zoar this weekend? Hank and I don't have anything better to do, so we're planning on making it a weekend in NE Ohio, as 21st century people, and want to stop by Zoar.

Hope to see you there! :razz:

Linda Trent
lindatrent@zoomnet.net

Delia Godric
09-12-2007, 08:39 AM
Linda and Elizabeth,

It turns out I will be at Zoar as well. This was a last minute decision influenced by a friend. I would like to meet each of you if possible.

Anna Worden

sbl
09-12-2007, 12:12 PM
Dear Ladies,

After all the discusion I hope it goes well and that there will be photos posted.

bizzilizzit
09-12-2007, 04:36 PM
If I don't get hit by a bus between now and then, I shall.
Elizabeth


Hi Ms. Topping,

Are you still planning to be at Zoar this weekend? Hank and I don't have anything better to do, so we're planning on making it a weekend in NE Ohio, as 21st century people, and want to stop by Zoar.

Hope to see you there! :razz:

Linda Trent
lindatrent@zoomnet.net