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Poor Private
07-04-2007, 03:21 PM
I have Quick question on proper etiquette. Are we as reenactors while in uniform and portraying a soldier supposed to come to attention and salute our national flag as it goes by, or take our hats off and hold it over our hearts? Same with the national anthem (even though it wasn't our national anthem at the time frame)?

first_sgt_8thky
07-04-2007, 07:11 PM
I've wondered this myself. If I have the choice at the time, I salute. I have done this for the flag, Anthem, and Pledge of Allengence. I've wondered about Taps after a battle too. Everyone I've been to, they make us uncover. I would rather salute, like I did at the funeral for a soldier who fell in Iraq. He was Ky National Guard and I attended in my Ky State Guard uniform. At "Present Arms" I saluted with the other real soldiers there. It was the least I could do for him.

Poor Private
07-04-2007, 07:18 PM
Shannon:
Thats why I posed this thread I get different answers from different people some who have been doin this for years . Myself I prefer to salute also. I figure since I am in uniform it's an apropriate way to Honor our flag,and nation.

Parault
07-04-2007, 07:42 PM
I have to agree. I think that it is appropriate while in uniform to do the proper military salute. I also have attended events where there was a flag presentation or the National Anthem played,and the soldiers,both,gray and blue did "present arms". I will continue doing so until told differant by someone that has been or in uniform of the modern military.

Robert A Mosher
07-04-2007, 07:56 PM
If you are part of a reenactment unit, you follow the lead of the officer or nco in charge. What you do then will depend upon whether you are in a period portrayal or a modern event. As an honor guard at a modern event, our reenactment unit presents arms as ordered.

If you are in your reenactment uniform, I guess its up to you - I would consider either choice appropriate but it's a question of what you're comfortable with.

Robert A. Mosher

Ocaliman
07-04-2007, 08:19 PM
I would "Present Arms" if by myself (i.e. Not under control of Officer or NCO) and in uniform, and follow the lead of the Officer or NCO if under their control. We are representing the military, and even though we aren't in the service anymore, I took an oath when I joined, and I don't remember anything in there that said my oath ended to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic when my enlistment ended.

I believe that I would also render appropriate military courtesies to a current Officer in uniform if they were at an event. I mean, we salute "Barney, the Lube Shop Tech" at an event if he has been elected to an officers position for his unit, why not a real Officer?

Western Blue Belly
07-04-2007, 09:52 PM
Considering it was not officially designated as the U.S. National Anthem until 1931, and thus non-civil war era I say do not salute, do not present arms.
This is where I tend to get testy. WE ARE NOT REAL SOLDIERS. We are U.S. citizens in costumes, thats right I said costumes. Before someone argues, the clothing WE wear was not used in the Civil War and was not issued by the Federal Government therefore they are costumes. And as U.S. citizens it is appropriate for us to place our right hand over our heart. Or if wearing head gear, hold said headgear over our heart useing the right hand.
Do not salute modern military officers, again, we are not soldiers. Save the salutes for the reenactments. Use modern honors where needed, even in costume.

reb64
07-04-2007, 10:02 PM
If you think its proper to salute the flag while reenacting then perhaps youll find the sale of socks with confederate flags on the sole disrespectul as well.

dale beasley
07-05-2007, 01:16 AM
If you are protraying a soldier, then act like one.

Dale Beasley
16th Louisiana Infantry

Rob Weaver
07-05-2007, 05:05 AM
I would agree that if you are part of a period military unit, fallen in and under arms, then returning the courtesies through presenting arms is respectful. I would say the same if you are in a recognizable period uniform, with or without arms. If you period clothing looks more civilian than military and you're not under arms, render the courtesy of removing your hat and placing it over your heart. The guiding priciple in rendering honors to the colors or the National Anthem is that of "respect." People will recognize what you're doing fits that principle. And you are a modern United States resident or citizen (well, most of us anyway) so a recognizable attitude of courtesy is incumbent upon you, whether the method of expression is period or not.

hanktrent
07-05-2007, 07:12 AM
If you are protraying a soldier, then act like one.


There you have it.

If I'm "portraying" a soldier or anyone from the 19th century, I'd try to do what he would do.

If I'm just me in different clothes, I'd do what I would do in the 21st century.

So for example, for a pre-event ceremony, before the historic part gets started, I'd stand for the national anthem, do the hand on heart thing, recite the pledge of allegiance as expected, and so forth. Wouldn't matter if I'm in modern clothes or all dressed and ready to go, I'm still "me."

However, once the historic part gets started, I'd do what the person I'm portraying would do, which might mean giving military respect, might mean refusing to respect the other side's flag, might mean standing at attention while the pledge of allegiance is said but not reciting it because I wouldn't know the words, might mean not standing for the national anthem even though I'm portraying someone patriotic because "I" was never taught that etiquette.

Problem comes when you're part of a group which is expected to act in unison, and there I guess you just have to do what the group tells you to do, because otherwise you look like a protestor in the 21st century or a disobedient soldier in the 19th century (unless you want to be either a protestor or a disobedient soldier).

When needing to act as an individual, though, the above is how I'd make the judgment call.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Kevin O'Beirne
07-05-2007, 09:42 AM
YES. Saltuing the flag was period etiquette during the Civil War. And regarding customs that post-date the Civil War, whether it's the "Star Spangled Banner" or the idea of not dipping the US flag in salute to anyone, my advice on that is, if you're at a modern ceremony, such as marching in your town's Independence Day parade, flout modern customs at your own risk.




I have Quick question on proper etiquette. Are we as reenactors while in uniform and portraying a soldier supposed to come to attention and salute our national flag as it goes by, or take our hats off and hold it over our hearts? Same with the national anthem (even though it wasn't our national anthem at the time frame)?

bob 125th nysvi
07-05-2007, 01:38 PM
we come to attention and salute every American Flag that passes us while we are waiting.

As we are parading, current and past veterans salute our colors.

We have been asked to be an honor guard and to provide fire salutes at dedications to the real soldiers.

We are portraying soldiers and just like anybody portraying a soldier in a movie or on TV we should be act appropriately.

Last time we were out with the Adjundant General of the NYS National Guard (memorial Day) he saluted our colors and we saluted the colors accompaning him. We then at his request participated in the dedication ceremony.

Until a veteran or active duty soldier tells me that he feels offended when we salute the colors (being only play soldiers) I'll continue to do it and be thankful that they realize we are honoring them, not trying to call attention to ourselves.

tompritchett
07-05-2007, 02:17 PM
Until a veteran or active duty soldier tells me that he feels offended when we salute the colors (being only play soldiers) I'll continue to do it and be thankful that they realize we are honoring them, not trying to call attention to ourselves.

Being ex-military, I have no problems saluting a modern American flag even though I am wearing a Confederate uniform. A period flag - now that is a different issue. Then it is very much a function of what the occassion is. When the two sides are paying respects to each other, then definitely Present Arms. But just having one march by as I am walking past, no really as it would not be correct for my impression. I do salute Union officers however.

bob 125th nysvi
07-05-2007, 07:37 PM
Being ex-military, I have no problems saluting a modern American flag even though I am wearing a Confederate uniform. A period flag - now that is a different issue. Then it is very much a function of what the occassion is. When the two sides are paying respects to each other, then definitely Present Arms. But just having one march by as I am walking past, no really as it would not be correct for my impression. I do salute Union officers however.

CSA ones. Once escorted a Major who came through my post to see our Colonel.

7WVaCranston
07-05-2007, 08:41 PM
If you are protraying a soldier, then act like one.

Dale Beasley
16th Louisiana Infantry

This is why I usually just stand there with a dumb look on my face when a modern U.S. flag goes by...As I "am" a soldier in 1861-65, I never really understand why there are 50 stars on the flag. ;) (kidding)

NUCDT08
07-31-2007, 07:13 PM
Just to shed some light. The Military Coutesy of rendering a salute to the flag and officer has always been around for years, as least thats what i was taught in a military ethics class back when i attended Basic training. If the national colors pass you then do as you see appropriate. If you are in a military uniform rather a costume or not show the flag its due respect, render the proper salute that it is dued. Far as the national anthem goes if it is played at a Civil War reenactment it is incorrect after all it was adopted in 1931. Therefore if we are trying to be authentic at events and it is played then someone needs to make the event host aware of it. But if it is played because we are protraying military men then you should come to attention and if you feel you should salute then do so. because of my military instinct even in civilian attire i render the flag its due respect. I mean our ancestors didnt fight adversity to have our flag disrespected, after all we could all be speaking german or japanese. As far as taps goes and jari villanueva can correct me on this, unless in a formal military ceremony rendering the salute is inaapropriate. Again taps is sounded for the end of the day-lights out or for the military dead. How ever if to the color is played by all means salute. The call sounded at the end of battles is not taps!!!!!! It is just a call that signifies the battle is over. again MSGT Villanueva can correct me. But in all retrospect i think people just need to research into things, and ask questions to the people who know. My personal opinion though is at any reenacting event be mindful of the year you are portraying and the military courtesys and customs that go along with that year. Just simply saying people need to stop being ignorant and do the research!!!

Frenchie
07-31-2007, 07:50 PM
I come from a military family (all Navy, the finest armed service in the world), was a Boy Scout and served my time in the Canoe Club. When in uniform I salute the flag as it passes, regardless of the number of stars it bears. It is the National Color and I will honor it.

I honestly don't know for sure what ought to be done when saying the Pledge of Allegiance when in uniform. I assume one salutes, but I'm going to look it up.

I'm amused when the "quarterdeck watch" on USS Constellation looks confused as I step up to the brow, salute the colors, salute him or her, and request permission to come aboard. Most of the new ones don't seem to get the word about that, but they learn fast.

I've seen the Confederate Battle Flag displayed and saluted as if it were the CSA National Flag. It isn't and it shouldn't be saluted.

Anytime the National Anthem is played I face the music and stand at attention. Ditto for 'Anchors Aweigh'. When I hear 'Dixie' I sing along at the top of my voice.

And I'll belt out 'O Canada' and 'La Marseillaise' anytime I'm asked.

hanktrent
07-31-2007, 08:08 PM
Far as the national anthem goes if it is played at a Civil War reenactment it is incorrect after all it was adopted in 1931. Therefore if we are trying to be authentic at events and it is played then someone needs to make the event host aware of it.

It's perfectly correct for the 1860s. It was adopted as the national anthem in the 20th century, but it was written and commonly played long before that, including during the Civil War.

For example, from the Official Records:

"...if the temper of the parties surrendering should seem to justify it the bands should play 'national and patriotic airs,' and no other. This direction was strictly observed, and the bands did play such pieces as the 'Star Spangled Banner,' 'Hail Columbia,' and the like while the rolls and paroles were being prepared."

And before that, during the Mexican War:

"As [the flag] was hoisted, the band of the 9th Infantry played the 'Star-spangled Banner,' and the field music 'Yankee Doodle.'" (From The War With Mexico Reviewed, by Abiel Abbot Livermore, 1850)

The only thing historically incorrect would be reacting to it in a special way, compared to any other patriotic song.


My personal opinion though is at any reenacting event be mindful of the year you are portraying and the military courtesys and customs that go along with that year. Just simply saying people need to stop being ignorant and do the research!!!

Well, that's certainly true. :)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

7thNJcoA
07-31-2007, 09:13 PM
I salute, but dont think it is proper for someone who never served and just playing soldier to salute. Thats why they uncover at most events, if its a period ceremony part of an impression that is a diffrent story. Thats just my opinion I think the saluting should be left to the real veterans which alot of us are in the hobby!

MBond057
07-31-2007, 09:19 PM
United States Flag Etiquette
http://poetpatriot.com/tmlnflag-etiquette.htm

Saluting the Flag

The flag should be saluted when reciting the "Pledge of Allegiance", when the flag is presented and placed, when the flag is retired, as the U.S. flag passes in a parade or procession, and when the National Anthem is played.
In a parade the flag should be saluted when it has approached to within six paces and the salute relieved when the banner is six paces beyond. The flag should be saluted as the float passes by.

At the playing of a rendition of the National Anthem the flag is to be saluted upon the first note and held until the last note has been played. All should stand during the performance of the National Anthem. All should face the American Flag when one is present. When one is not present all should face the source of the music and salute as though a flag was present.

All in attendance of the presenting or the retirement of a flag or as a flag is paraded past should rise to stand while saluting the flag.

Civilians salute the flag by placing their right hand with palm open and fingers together over their heart.
When dressed in civilian attire men wearing hats should remove them and hold the hat over their left shoulder with their hand over their heart. Women do not remove their headwear but salute with their right hand over their heart.

When the hat is a part of a military uniform or that of patriotic organizations it is not removed but the appropriate military salute is made.

The Boy Scouts of America and other such Patriotic organizations may have their own salute and do not remove the hat of their uniform.

Linda Trent
07-31-2007, 09:56 PM
It's perfectly correct for the 1860s. It was adopted as the national anthem in the 20th century, but it was written and commonly played long before that, including during the Civil War.

Exactly. The Lester Levy Sheet Music refers to it as a "National Song of America," and that was an 1856 rendition. There were several "national songs of the period including as Hank brought up "Hail Columbia." I've been known to stand at attention at events when I hear the Star Spangled Banner being played, but I also stand at attention for Hail Columbia, and other patriotic airs.

I remember Noah Briggs portrayed a Union surgeon who was helpful to us Confederate ladies. His character was shot by the Confederate cavalry, and one of our ladies began to sing the Star Spangled Banner over his mortally wounded body. Was it right? Why not? The only reason that I could come up with is because of the song's significance in the 21st century, but it was also significant back then as well. And to a good Northern man knowing that his beloved flag "was still there" was, we thought, a peaceful way to go. For what it's worth, there wasn't a dry eye around he took his final breath at the end of the song.

Would we have sung the song? I know there will be people who say absolutely not. But I also believe that Southern or Northern individuals were pretty much all the same -- they understood when a gentleman was around, especially one who was kind and generous, and who was a non-combatant.

Linda.

CameronsHighlander
07-31-2007, 11:39 PM
Keep in mind the song we call the "National Anthem." was a poem in the 1860's and was set to music in the 1900's. The poem originally written by Francis Scott Key druing the seige of Baltimore during the War of 1812. A number of Soliders may have known the poem particularly the Officers, but the average solider in the rank (most of whom where not of American birth) would have had knowledge of songs like Dixie or the Battle Cry of Freedom and the poems written by Edgar Allen Poe then the Star Spangled Banner.

Saluting the Flag is honoring those who have fought for the nation it represents not the Flag it self. The Flag could be stated as peices of Cotton, Nylon, Polyester, Plastic, Canvas, or Silk. It is what it stands for and that is the United States of America that is what we Salute.

Pvt Schnapps
08-01-2007, 06:06 AM
"When the hat is a part of a military uniform or that of patriotic organizations it is not removed but the appropriate military salute is made.

"The Boy Scouts of America and other such Patriotic organizations may have their own salute and do not remove the hat of their uniform."

I was inclined to go with the view that, on public occasions, those of us who are not veterans or active duty military are just civilians in costume and ought to salute as such. But this raises the question of whether reenactors are, in fact, a "patriotic organization." In that case we should give a military salute.

What do the rest of you think? Would this apply to reenactors generally, or only those in established organizations with bylaws specifically identifying them as a patriotic organization?

But as I said, that only applies to public occasions. While "live" during a reenactment, I'd go with Hank's interpretation. Unless, of course, any part of it is in disagreement with Linda's...

Oh, and the Star Spangled Banner was set to (a "borrowed" piece of) music about as soon as it was written in 1814, and was sung by the gallant wharf rats of Baltimore before the Brits had left the Bay.

Frenchie
08-01-2007, 06:52 AM
Oh, and the Star Spangled Banner was set to (a "borrowed" piece of) music about as soon as it was written in 1814, and was sung by the gallant wharf rats of Baltimore before the Brits had left the Bay.

Doggone you, beat me to it. Yeah, it wasn't exactly the tune we sing today, but the melody was taken from "To Anacreon in Heaven," a drinking song of the Anacreontic Society (of London), written by the British composer John Stafford Smith. The irony is delicious.

But I still maintain our national anthem should be "America the Beautiful".

Robert A Mosher
08-01-2007, 06:56 AM
"When the hat is a part of a military uniform or that of patriotic organizations it is not removed but the appropriate military salute is made.

"The Boy Scouts of America and other such Patriotic organizations may have their own salute and do not remove the hat of their uniform."



Mike -
This seems to vary widely even within such "patriotic organizations." When I was a Boy Scout (back when dinosaurs still roamed the earth), our troop did not use the salute when honoring the flag but put our hands over our hearts. It may have been because some members of our troops didn't have headgear. Though I admit it is curious because all of our adult leaders were WWII vets - we did a lot of close order drill ;>.

Personally, I believe that what to do still comes back to circumstances. If you are in the act of portraying a Civil War soldier (or civilian) then you act according to the instructions of your ncos or officers or in accord with the practice of the period for civilians (which in terms of behavior probably still resulted in as much variation as we see among civilians today). While I am not about to try and talk people out of their own decision, when not actually engaged in reenacting a Civil War soldier I revert to 21st Century civilian rules in just about all circumstances even if still in my blue uniform. I do not use a military salute for honoring the flag or in greeting modern uniformed officers. The military hand salute is for uniformed military personnel, something I know I am not even when wearing a blue uniform. However, I will confess that at some mixed events and while still under arms, I have presented arms to the 442nd Regt Combat Team veterans in a parade.


On a slightly separate point, Ernest wrote "Saluting the Flag is honoring those who have fought for the nation it represents not the Flag it self. The Flag could be stated as peices of Cotton, Nylon, Polyester, Plastic, Canvas, or Silk. It is what it stands for and that is the United States of America that is what we Salute." Thanks for that well written, simple statement of a very important truth, from a member of Company B, 28th Massachusetts who remembers the 79th New York as well.

Robert A. Mosher

vamick
08-01-2007, 07:11 AM
I


I've seen the Confederate Battle Flag displayed and saluted as if it were the CSA National Flag. It isn't and it shouldn't be saluted.


.

Well I would submit that when in confederate uniform it IS quiet right, becaues that IS the 'national flag' ( battleflag included) and in any case I do whenever possible regardless:-P

Linda Trent
08-01-2007, 07:39 AM
CameronsHighlander wrote:

Keep in mind the song we call the "National Anthem." was a poem in the 1860's and was set to music in the 1900's.

Um, did you see Hank's post


from the Official Records:

"...if the temper of the parties surrendering should seem to justify it the bands should play 'national and patriotic airs,' and no other. This direction was strictly observed, and the bands did play such pieces as the 'Star Spangled Banner,' 'Hail Columbia,' and the like while the rolls and paroles were being prepared."

And before that, during the Mexican War:

"As [the flag] was hoisted, the band of the 9th Infantry played the 'Star-spangled Banner,' and the field music 'Yankee Doodle.'" (From The War With Mexico Reviewed, by Abiel Abbot Livermore, 1850)

or mine?


The Lester Levy Sheet Music refers to it as a "National Song of America," and that was an 1856 rendition.

If you'd like to see my documentation you can go to http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/levy-search.html and put Star Spangled Banner in the search box and it'll bring up the original sheet music. But here's what it says about the document.

Levy Call Number: Box 055, Item 052
Title: National Songs of America. The Star Spangled Banner.
Composer, Lyricist, Arranger: Arranged for the Piano By Francis H. Brown.
Publication:Boston : Oliver Ditson, 115 Washington St.
Date: 1856

Linda.

TheSignalCorpsGuy
08-01-2007, 07:40 AM
WOW - lots of opinions here and even some more interesting facts about the "National Anthem".

As a Confederate I portrey a 1st Sgt, as a Federal, a 1st Lieutenant.

At reenactments I salute.

I also urge the military in my unit to salute and talk to them if I see them not following that guideline. It urks the heck out of me to NOT have my salute returned. As a 1st Lieutenant - I also salute senior Officers and expect the proper salute from enlisted but it rarely happens, infact when it does I return the salute and thank the person.

I've noticed that most of us ex-military make it a point to salute because it's part of our psyche.

At "Living History Events" where the National Anthem is played - regardless of Uniform - I stand to attention and salute toward the music if I can't see a flag and also require others in my unit do the same.

I've seen and listened to a multitude of spectators say something along the lines of - That group there stood and saluted for the national anthem but that group over there didn't and they should have. After all - they're in uniform.

If you're at an immersion event - you should follow STRICTLY the military guidelines regarding this issue.

If at an event where there are spectators present - if you're in a uniform (either blue or gray) - ESPECIALLY an Officer or Sgt. then you should stand to attention and salute from when the first note is played until the last note stops. Furthermore, you should encourage the other Military members around you to do likewise and also civilians to render the proper salute (hand over heart). Now - when I'm 1st Sgt - we normally sing the first verse and chorus of DIXIE very loudly directly after! :-)

Maybe it's just the military in me coming out - but saluting is part of the military 'thing' and we need to do it - period.

A few of us locals (in my unit) go to Ft. Monroe every June for the Signal Corps birthday celebration that they have. We march in, perform a flag demonstration then salute as a group to the General attending and then march out. It is part of a 'ceremony' and being military of ANY time - we WILL salute a General.

Now - if I'm on my way TO the ceremony from my vehicle and I pass an Officer on the walking path - if my right hand is not 'encumbered' then I salute. (it's just a 'me' thing). If on the base - and outside - when "Colors" is held - we stand at attention, face the flag and salute. Heck, when I take visitors to the USS Wisconsin in Norfolk, I still salute the colors, salute the greeter and say "Request permission to come aboard".

But I have noticed that the importance of this courtesy in our hobby runs down the dividing line between military/ex-military and non-military. If you weren't IN the military - then the importance of this courtesy is much lower. If you're IN or were in the military then it is just part of what you do - and how you do it.

I think the non-military members who haven't experienced boot camp and then serving in the military just don't understand - or very few do. It's something that those of us who have 'been there - done that for real' can only really fully grasp.

Listening to 47 of my shipmates die instantly in a fireball - or going to Iraq or Afganastan (or Any other Littoral combat in recent decades) and seeing the dead - the FIRST thing you want to do is SALUTE. Now - I must admit - tears were in my eyes as the body bags passed - but I held my hand up until it hurt so bad I couldn't feel it any more. It wasn't an official ceremony - it wasn't being watched by the TV or "Officers" - it is a spontaneous 'honor'.



Bottom line? When in doubt - SALUTE! (it always kept me out of trouble for my 'twenty' in Uncle Sam's Canoe Club)

vamick
08-01-2007, 08:01 AM
Well I would submit that when in confederate uniform it IS quiet right, becaues that IS the 'national flag' ( battleflag included) and in any case I do whenever possible regardless:-P

and to sum up...when ending sham battles/taps played ectect..we are taught that since we are uniformed and under arms that its impropper to "uncover" our commands are 'PREEsent ARRRms!' and then 'ORRRder ARRms"! uncovering is for prayers, and also we salute the present day US flag and salute during the anthem if played...some of us are/have been military, others arent, but when potraying CW men under arms we are ALL at that moment 'military';)

tompritchett
08-01-2007, 08:04 AM
Saluting the Flag is honoring those who have fought for the nation it represents not the Flag it self.

Do you have a reference for that? I served 6 years in the National Guard with several tours on active duty for training and never heard that claim made, and so I am interesting in where your information came from.

RJSamp
08-01-2007, 08:13 AM
and to sum up...when ending sham battles/taps played ectect..we are taught that since we are uniformed and under arms that its impropper to "uncover" our commands are 'PREEsent ARRRms!' and then 'ORRRder ARRms"! uncovering is for prayers, and also we salute the present day US flag and salute during the anthem if played...some of us are/have been military, others arent, but when potraying CW men under arms we are ALL at that moment 'military';)

"uncovering is for prayers" yes, and sounding Taps during Daylight hours is 99% of the time for a memorial/solemn remembrance/silence/prayer...

so do you stay covered for prayers while Taps is being sounded?

vamick
08-01-2007, 08:15 AM
Listening to 47 of my shipmates die instantly in a fireball


were you aboard the USS Cole??? a friend of mine's father was a doc there and narrowly missed getting turned to a cinder....things like that indeed bring a certain wetness to the eyes and I'll admit to that feeling at certain CW sites, even at this great distance of time...so many 'bills' have been payed over the years by so few, God bless them all

Linda Trent
08-01-2007, 08:18 AM
I've been known to stand at attention at events when I hear the Star Spangled Banner being played, but I also stand at attention for Hail Columbia, and other patriotic airs.

I should make a distinction here, which I failed to do in my original post.:rolleyes: I stand at attention when portraying a Union sympathizer. I do not when portraying a Confederate. I try to think about them, and what they would have done.

I dunno what a Confederate would do when hearing the strains of the Star Spangled Banner. While they aided in the national defense against the British during the War of 1812, and have every right to be proud of their gallantry, yet it does honor the Stars and Stripes -- the very flag they're fighting against. I wonder if there would be a lot of mixed emotion upon hearing those stanzas? Personally I bet there was a lot of mixed emotion in general about fighting to split the Union, but that's mere speculation and not based upon any evidence.

Again, I try to put myself in their shoes and once there I don't worry about anyone else, or my 21st century beliefs; because I know it's to help educate those around me both modern spectators and my fellow reenactors.

Linda

RJSamp
08-01-2007, 08:36 AM
"To Anacreon in Heaven," a drinking song of the Anacreontic Society (of London), written by the British composer John Stafford Smith. The irony is delicious.


Wrongo Monsieur LaFrance. Ce n'est pas correct. It's NOT a drinking song. That it was sung at Society meetings is correct. That it was sung as part of a social hour after the meeting is also correct. But that it was a 'drinking' song in the Rugby, Football (Soccer), Drowning in Libations, rednosed sense of the word is hogwash.

The reason the song is written in an octave and a half, and is so difficult to sing, is that Smith wrote the song specifically for the Society. And the Society is superbly trained, talented singers in the classical, operatic sense.

There is no irony.

Frenchie
08-01-2007, 08:40 AM
Yes, RJ, but it is popularly considered a drinking song and is so called in most online references.

The irony is that it was a veddy British tune, not that it was accompanied with fine sherries.

tompritchett
08-01-2007, 08:49 AM
not that it was accompanied with fine sherries.

Considering that you are talking about rugby and football societies, I would suggest that ales were probably more prevalent than fine sherries. :)

RJSamp
08-01-2007, 11:19 AM
Yes, RJ, but it is popularly considered a drinking song and is so called in most online references.

The irony is that it was a veddy British tune, not that it was accompanied with fine sherries.

Still doesn't make it correct....time to quell the rumors and inaccuracies. Mythbusters be us. It is incorrectly considered a drinking song. 'Popularly' and most online references further the inaccuracy.

Next thing you know we'll be portraying 1862 soldiers.....calling the Star Spangled Banner our National Anthem and then stating that the tune was a drinking song sung at taverns late at night while howling at the moon....and how ironic was that.

If your Irony was that it was British (which makes it ironic in my book as well), then no need to mention the inaccurate origin in the same breath.... it's another potential irony (a National Anthem in all of it's majestic glory was a song for drunkards) .....inferences are all too easy.

More errors to creep into our impressions.

And no, Dan Butterfield didn't compose Taps, he arranged it.

RJSamp
08-01-2007, 11:21 AM
Considering that you are talking about rugby and football societies, I would suggest that ales were probably more prevalent than fine sherries. :)

Bad suggestion Tom. The Society that sang the tune did so while enjoying a fine sherry, et al..... this has nothing to do with Rugger or Assoc. Or drinking to excess. i.e a 'drinking song'.

TheSignalCorpsGuy
08-01-2007, 12:08 PM
were you aboard the USS Cole??? a friend of mine's father was a doc there and narrowly missed getting turned to a cinder....things like that indeed bring a certain wetness to the eyes and I'll admit to that feeling at certain CW sites, even at this great distance of time...so many 'bills' have been payed over the years by so few, God bless them all


Gary,

It was the USS IOWA (BB-61) At 0955 on April 19th 1989 as the Center Gun - Turret #2 was being loaded there was an over-ram of the powder and 600lbs of black powder suddenly exploded killing everybody in the upper turret instantly - then the lower turret (powder rooms, magazines, and hoist operators) within 5-10 seconds.

http://www.ussiowa.org/turret2/turret2_memorial.htm That is our 'virtual memorial' to our fallen shipmates.

You can see the IOWA Memorial there - which our shipmates lovingly built and maintain with our own funds. The "COLE" memorial (not belittling their issue) is down the street about 200 yards. It cost millions of dollars which was all donated - and not a soul from the Cole or the Families of the dead come to help maintain it.

(because I know some will ask)

The Navy's story that a "Homo" blew up the ship was just a lie to cover up the fact that they had no clue - and that seemed the most probable. (finding a scapegoat)

There has been a book and a movie. Both are so packed with blatent lies and half truths that the REAL truth barely even has a chance.

Although we'll never officially know the cause - Sandia National Labs has given us the best explanation.

Here's the short non-technical version - the 'technical' version is the subject of a whole other book.

The powder was re-bagged in the 80's because it was originally packed in silk bags in the 1930's. The powder pellets are put into the bags in a very specific order. On occasion - there were some pellets left over. These pellets were 'placed' on top in no particular order. IF there were an over-ram of more than 16 Inches (which the rammer chain on IOWA had shown - and that's the WHOLE way through the first bag - of which there are six) AND the 'thrown in' pellets were facing the rammer - then there was a 1 in four chance it would ignite and cause an explosion.

That coupled with an 80% turnover rate in E-4 and below in eight months plus the new recruits were not 'hand picked' (highest in their "A" school classes, etc...) and the fact that the Navy had drastically cut funding for a ship that desperately needed the repairs all added up to one big problem that took 47 of my shipmates.

Eight of my shipmates died in the powder flats holding a 2" fire hose that never charged trying to fight the fires and protect the ship from complete destruction (aka "Arizona" style). The Fire Main in Turret #2 was CASREPT (not operational). In the prior yard period the decision was made to spend what little funds they were given to repair the engineering plant which was even in worse shape. THOSE guys are heros!



For more information on how the guns are fired - and for just about all you ever wanted to know (and were afraid existed) about 16" guns go to this link:
http://www.ussiowa.org/pics/turrets/index.htm






Fair Winds and Following Seas,

tompritchett
08-01-2007, 01:35 PM
Bad suggestion Tom. The Society that sang the tune did so while enjoying a fine sherry, et al..... this has nothing to do with Rugger or Assoc.

My mistake then.

dale beasley
08-01-2007, 03:05 PM
"I honestly don't know for sure what ought to be done when saying the Pledge of Allegiance when in uniform. I assume one salutes, but I'm going to look it up."--Frenchie

Frenchie,

When we were deployed in 2004, one of the last things we did before we boarded the "White Plane" was Pledege to the Flag. Now just becasue we did it does not mean it was right, but it was a tradition I guess...I never asked this of anyone else, guess I never thought about it till now.

Dale Beasley
16th LA INF

Frenchie
08-01-2007, 03:26 PM
The powder was re-bagged in the 80's because it was originally packed in silk bags in the 1930's.

That coupled with an 80% turnover rate in E-4 and below in eight months plus the new recruits were not 'hand picked' (highest in their "A" school classes, etc...) and the fact that the Navy had drastically cut funding for a ship that desperately needed the repairs all added up to one big problem that took 47 of my shipmates.

John, I was a Pacific Theater nut when I was a kid, and read everything I could find about WW2 Navy weapons. When I heard those parts of the story, I decided the main problems were poor ammo quality control and poor training. I'd read, even before the Iowa was finished refitting, that there were money and personnel problems. There are a lot of retired senior officers who ought to be out on the streets right now with signs that say, "Lost My Pension, Please HELP".


For more information on how the guns are fired - and for just about all you ever wanted to know (and were afraid existed) about 16" guns go to this link:
http://www.ussiowa.org/pics/turrets/index.htm

Yeah, baby! Pack a small car full of TNT and drop it on a tennis court 25 miles away!


Fair Winds and Following Seas,

And to you, shipmate.

NUCDT08
08-01-2007, 03:42 PM
LOL Ok I stand corrected, however then if the star spangeled banner is played it should be of correct period and not the modern day anthem correct?

reb64
08-01-2007, 03:57 PM
I come from a military family (all Navy, the finest armed service in the world),
And I'll belt out 'O Canada' and 'La Marseillaise' anytime I'm asked.


Any American singing Oh canada ought to be thrown over the poop deck, especially sailors and frenchmen. most of the ones I see tie their tee shirts in a knot half way up their belly in civilian clothes. and everyone knows the army, especially cavalry is anywhere the war is fought and won. I give the SEALS and marines a pass.

Kevin O'Beirne
08-01-2007, 07:08 PM
Better get after the Cub Scouts to get them to quit saluting, then.

tompritchett
08-01-2007, 09:05 PM
everyone knows the army, especially cavalry is anywhere the war is fought and won.

Reenactor Hat: But if the fight is overseas against anyone with even some serious clout, it is going to take the Navy to initially provide 24 hour air supremacy and later bring in the heavy equipment. (Sorry Air Force, but in most areas of the world the Navy will be providing the initial air cover as you are first flying in and getting your bases set up). Granted, it is going to take the grunts (Army & Marines) to finish up the fight and kick the bad guys out of town. But without the Navy, the grunts most often will never get a chance to get into the fight with enough firepower and staying power to survive for very long against a truly determined enemy with modern weaponry and a well trained military.

Moderator Hat: BTW, the next time you start making cracks about other branches of the service or other nationalities up here, you better use the appropriate smilies or else your post is toast.

vamick
08-02-2007, 07:24 AM
Gary,



The Navy's story that a "Homo" blew up the ship was just a lie to cover up the fact that they had no clue - and that seemed the most probable. (finding a scapegoat)

,

I remember that, amd know exactly whatcha mean by "scapegoats", I used to work at a govt. arsenal making explosives/propellent, and especially in cases of NG explosions it always came down to 'blame the dead guy', the last one they had there, was never satisfactorily explained..after all there wasnt much left!..I re-ran propellent there in the mid 80's that had been bunkered for Vietnam for the navy since I was in high school, but I dont think it was for the 'big guns'......one just never knows what the next sunrise will bring!

cblodg
08-02-2007, 08:00 AM
If you think its proper to salute the flag while reenacting then perhaps youll find the sale of socks with confederate flags on the sole disrespectul as well.

... you'd bring that back up. Face it, the socks were produced in the period and the soldiers wore them. Why can't you just drop it already.

As to the question at hand, I think if you are ordered to render the solute by your officer or NCO follow it. As was said earlier on, when we are in town parades (even Remembrance Day) the veterans solute our colors. A US flag is a US flag and deserves our honors.

Chris

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
08-02-2007, 08:36 AM
Hallo!

IMHO, when portraying Civil War soldiers in an historical environment, follow the CW customs of etiquette. When not in a historical environment or setting, follow the CURRENT modern customs of etiquette.

Just IMHO...

Others' mileage will vary....

Yes, there is a history to things. The original salute of Francis Bellamy's 1892 "Pledge" was dropped in the WWII era because it resembled the "Hitler Salute" too much.
Shoot, even the Pledge itself has mutated over time:

Versions of the Pledge:

1892: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

1892 to 1923: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

1923 to 1954: "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

1954 to Present: "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

Ephraim_Zook
08-02-2007, 09:30 AM
"I honestly don't know for sure what ought to be done when saying the Pledge of Allegiance when in uniform. I assume one salutes, but I'm going to look it up."--Frenchie

Frenchie,

When we were deployed in 2004, one of the last things we did before we boarded the "White Plane" was Pledege to the Flag. Now just becasue we did it does not mean it was right, but it was a tradition I guess...I never asked this of anyone else, guess I never thought about it till now.

Dale Beasley
16th LA INF

Oddly enough, USAF regulation specifically PROHIBITS reciting the pledge of allegiance while in uniform under some conditions, and leaves it OPTIONAL in others.

From USAF Manual 36-2203, Drill and Ceremonies:

7.38. Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag

7.38.1 In military formations and ceremonies, the Pledge of Allegiance is not recited.

7.38.2 At protocol functions and social and sporting events that include civilian participants, military personnel should:

7.38.2.1 When in uniform outdoors, stand at attention, remain silent, face the flag and render the hand salute.

7.38.2.2 When in uniform indoors, stand at attention, remain silent, and face the flag. Do not render the hand salute. Where the participants are primarily civilians or in civilian attire, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is optional for those in uniform.

7.38.2.3 When in civilian attire, recite the Pledge of Allegiance standing at attention, facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men should remove their headress with the right hand and hold it over their left shoulder, hand over the heart.

Draw your own conclusions when it comes to wearing a civil war uniform.

I'll mention this as being at least semi-relevant: At the Governor of New Jersey's annual review of the NJ Army and Air National Guard, the selected representative units passed in review after being inspected by the governor. Leading the parade every year were guard members dressed in continental uniform, and as they reached the reviewing stand, rather than rendering the modern military hand salute to the governor and adjutant general, the ranking officer on horseback would remove his (tricorn) hat and hold it aloft as he passed the dignitaries; I assume this was proper form in the time period represented by those so dressed.

Frenchie
08-02-2007, 11:31 AM
Leading the parade every year were guard members dressed in continental uniform, and as they reached the reviewing stand, rather than rendering the modern military hand salute to the governor and adjutant general, the ranking officer on horseback would remove his (tricorn) hat and hold it aloft as he passed the dignitaries; I assume this was proper form in the time period represented by those so dressed.

Ron, your assumption is correct. In fact, up through "our" War, naval officers saluted each other not with the hand salute, but by lifting or touching the brims of their caps or hats. Enlisted men would either render the hand salute or, for a more formal occasion, remove their covers.

joe_korber
08-05-2007, 08:30 AM
Keep in mind the song we call the "National Anthem." was a poem in the 1860's and was set to music in the 1900's. The poem originally written by Francis Scott Key druing the seige of Baltimore during the War of 1812.

Yes it began life as a poem written Mr Key. It was however set to music long before the 1900's and became one of numerous "National Airs" that were utilized on occassions we a tune of patriotic significance was deemed appropriate.

repsectfully
Joe Korber

Jari
08-06-2007, 06:34 AM
A good place to start on research about our national anthem would be:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/diglib/ihas/loc.natlib.ihas.200000017/default.html

I would also commend Oscar Sonneck's 1910 work
Report on "The Star-Spangled Banner", "Hail Columbia", America", "Yankee Doodle published by the US Gov't Printing Office. You can find this work on the net with ease. However, it is dry scholarly reading :)


It is few and far between that the Star-Spangled Banner is played at an event by a live group. How many drum and fife groups play it? When the Federal City Brass plays it (usually in the morning with other "national" airs) we seem to note that while some stand and some salute there are many who carry on with little or no notice. And we can always count on someone shouting “Play Ball” at the conclusion.

The version we play is the one Claudio Grafulla (7th NY Band) arranged. Pretty much the standard for CW bands, although the arrangement appears in brass band journals before the war. The unique things about performing and listening to a Civil War version of the The Star-Spangled Banner are:
1. The key which is E Flat-The key used for brass bands. It sounds higher and is really tough to sing.
2. The rhythm is slightly different from the modern version, especially in the beginning which uses a single pick up note rather than the two we know today
3. The last section is repeated. (“O say, does that star-spangled banner”
4. The lead voice embellished the melody with a little cadenza (on the words “yet wave”) in the cornet

Jari

RJSamp
08-06-2007, 07:41 AM
NOTE: This bill has been introduced to and PASSED by the Senate. It yet has to go to the House and President for final passage.


Inhofe Legislation Allows Veterans to Salute the Flag







WASHINGTON, D.C. – U.S. Senator Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.) today praised the passage by unanimous consent of his bill (S.1877) clarifying U.S. law to allow veterans and servicemen not in uniform to salute the flag. Current law (US Code Title 4, Chapter 1) states that veterans and servicemen not in uniform should place their hand over their heart without clarifying whether they can or should salute the flag.

“The salute is a form of honor and respect, representing pride in one’s military service,” Senator Inhofe said. “Veterans and service members continue representing the military services even when not in uniform.

“Unfortunately, current U.S. law leaves confusion as to whether veterans and service members out of uniform can or should salute the flag. My legislation will clarify this regulation, allowing veterans and servicemen alike to salute the flag, whether they are in uniform or not.

“I look forward to seeing those who have served saluting proudly at baseball games, parades, and formal events. I believe this is an appropriate way to honor and recognize the 25 million veterans in the United States who have served in the military and remain as role models to others citizens. Those who are currently serving or have served in the military have earned this right, and their recognition will be an inspiration to others.”


Michael
member of the
Black Sheep Squadron

ISRA# 22124

RJSamp
08-06-2007, 07:47 AM
A good place to start on research about our national anthem would be:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/diglib/ihas/loc.natlib.ihas.200000017/default.html

I would also commend Oscar Sonneck's 1910 work
Report on "The Star-Spangled Banner", "Hail Columbia", America", "Yankee Doodle published by the US Gov't Printing Office. You can find this work on the net with ease. However, it is dry scholarly reading :)

4. The lead voice embellished the melody with a little cadenza (on the words “yet wave”) in the cornet

Jari

Good stuff Jari, fond memories of listening to your fine band play this in the morning at Fort Delaware....and Jeb's cadenza!

We put 18 trumpets on the line for the Bulls-Nets Season Opener November 2005, under the auspices of Bugles Across America/Tom Day. Now that was a neat arrangement (including a couple of 4 valve fluegellhorns playing the low brass oom pah pah stuff). It ended up with Tom Fox nailing a High G on his Shilke Berrylium belled Bb trumpet (shades of Bill Chase!)..... one of the NJ Nets turned around afterward and said to Tom: "I heard that, I heard that!"....

I've been playing it as a solo for the local high school volleyball games.....hope to continue next year.....the CD sound tracks get old after awhile.

tompritchett
08-06-2007, 08:46 AM
Inhofe Legislation Allows Veterans to Salute the Flag


I like it. Nothing like a crisp salute at the position of attention to contrast with the sloppy hand over the heart while in a semi-slouched postion. If nothing else, it shows the people around you that the flag still actually means something to some Americans and that the anthem is more than just a distraction that must be endured before the main event.

Robert A Mosher
08-06-2007, 09:19 AM
I like it. Nothing like a crisp salute at the position of attention to contrast with the sloppy hand over the heart while in a semi-slouched postion. If nothing else, it shows the people around you that the flag still actually means something to some Americans and that the anthem is more than just a distraction that must be endured before the main event.

Tom -
As part of a group of Washington Nationals Season Ticket holders, I do have to note that when I have been at RFK I have been pleasantly surprised to observe very high compliance with that hats off part and the general deportment (including posture). I do wish they would not dilute the significance of such honors rendered during the playing of the National Anthem by having people take off their hats for "God Bless America" especially when it's not sung by Kate Smith! It's a great song and is a strong candidate if they ever decide to change national anthems, but it is NOT the national anthem.

BTW, I do like the idea of authorizing veternas to render a hand salute even when not/no longer in uniform. A similar point occured to me during this discussion that, frankly, I'm more than willing to let a veteran do whatever he or she wants when honoring the colors, they've paid for the privilege.

Robert A. Mosher

tompritchett
08-06-2007, 09:25 AM
Saluting the Flag is honoring those who have fought for the nation it represents not the Flag it self.

Do you have a reference for that? I served 6 years in the National Guard with several tours on active duty for training and never heard that claim made, and so I am interesting in where your information came from.

I know that I initially asked for a reference but never mind now. After further reflection, especially after the post on the the Inhofe legislation, I realize that part of what sanctifies the flag is the blood that was spilled to defend it. I had never consciously thought of it in that manner in a long time. It was there but it had become so ingrained in me that I no longer even thought about it; it had become part of my subconscious respect for the flag.

MDRebCAv
08-06-2007, 01:12 PM
Yes it began life as a poem written Mr Key. It was however set to music long before the 1900's and became one of numerous "National Airs" that were utilized on occassions we a tune of patriotic significance was deemed appropriate.

repsectfully
Joe Korber

I remember reading as a child in the Baltimore Sun that the poem was set to the tune of 'To Anacreon in Heaven" within mere days of its being published. According to the Smithosonian's encyclopedia site:

"During the 19th century, “The Star-Spangled Banner” became one of the nation’s best-loved patriotic songs. It gained special significance during the Civil War, a time when many Americans turned to music to express their feelings for the flag and the ideals and values it represented. By the 1890s, the military had adopted the song for ceremonial purposes, requiring it to be played at the raising and lowering of the colors." To me this indicates that it was sung at the time of the WBTS.

In addition on the Library of Congress's "America Singing" site, Under the collection of "Civil War song sheets", there are several examples of handbills of the lyrics.

Just a note to all those Yankees fans out there...BASEBALL Yankees...whenever you stand up to honor the National Anthem in Yankee Stadium remember...you are standing for a song about BALTIMORE!!!!!!

RJSamp
08-06-2007, 01:29 PM
Yankees...whenever you stand up to honor the National Anthem in Yankee Stadium remember...you are standing for a song about BALTIMORE!!!!!!

Geez, I could have sworn the song was about a FLAG?

tompritchett
08-06-2007, 02:45 PM
Just a note to all those Yankees fans out there...BASEBALL Yankees...whenever you stand up to honor the National Anthem in Yankee Stadium remember...you are standing for a song about BALTIMORE!!!!!!

It could be worse; the song could be about action at Boston. :)

MDRebCAv
08-07-2007, 11:22 AM
Geez, I could have sworn the song was about a FLAG?

But it was more about the flag flying above an unconquered Baltimore...hey, besides, RJ...I with the way the Oioles are playing right now I have to take any chance I can against the NY Yankes....all in fun, my friend....all in fun.

tpallas
08-11-2007, 07:19 PM
Reenactor Hat: But if the fight is overseas against anyone with even some serious clout, it is going to take the Navy to initially provide 24 hour air supremacy and later bring in the heavy equipment. (Sorry Air Force, but in most areas of the world the Navy will be providing the initial air cover as you are first flying in and getting your bases set up). Granted, it is going to take the grunts (Army & Marines) to finish up the fight and kick the bad guys out of town. But without the Navy, the grunts most often will never get a chance to get into the fight with enough firepower and staying power to survive for very long against a truly determined enemy with modern weaponry and a well trained military.

For the (permanent) record, the Army is the senior - hence, best - service. :eek:

3rd_PA_Artillery
08-12-2007, 12:29 PM
I guess so. That's what my commander always taught me.

Ephraim_Zook
08-13-2007, 06:38 AM
For the (permanent) record, the Army is the senior - hence, best - service. :eek:

Yeah, but the Air Force is the best fed service. :p

tompritchett
08-13-2007, 10:29 AM
For the (permanent) record, the Army is the senior - hence, best - service.

Actually I am ex-Army myself and am proud of it. I just have a problem when people start running down our brethen services - except, of course, for those Air Force Wooses with the easy life and "best fed service" :D (Sorry Ron, I could not let your remark stand without a bust; actually I had two brothers serve in the Air Force, one of whom is now retired from Active Duty and the other will be eligible for retirement from the Air National Guard when he turns sixty.)

Hiline
01-07-2009, 06:51 PM
Sorry to dig this up again but after reading all the posts my question was not answered. I have been requested to lead a color guard for a Modern day Conference and it is to be in period uniforms ( Lewis and clark, Civil War, Indian war and lastly a modern dress blues.) Do I as the color Sgt. have my troops render a hand salute or do we doff our hats like civilians? Two persons will probably be under arms. Keep in mind it's a modern day event. I don't want to look stupid but I am leaning towards the hand salute/present arms but I am not sure.

bob 125th nysvi
01-07-2009, 09:21 PM
Sorry to dig this up again but after reading all the posts my question was not answered. I have been requested to lead a color guard for a Modern day Conference and it is to be in period uniforms ( Lewis and clark, Civil War, Indian war and lastly a modern dress blues.) Do I as the color Sgt. have my troops render a hand salute or do we doff our hats like civilians? Two persons will probably be under arms. Keep in mind it's a modern day event. I don't want to look stupid but I am leaning towards the hand salute/present arms but I am not sure.

we give a Military Salute. That is present arms if armed. Dip the State or Regimental Flag and bring the National Flag to full height.

We do this for each veteran organization, military unit or American Flag that passes us.

Being that this year our Grand Marshal was a retired full colonel and he accepted out salutes with out a blink of an eye I assume this is the safe way to go.

We have never had a veteran or a full time military person tell us it was inappropriate for us to do so and they have never failed to salute our Flag in return.

Is there a LAW that we should or should not? I don't know. It is Military Law that military personnel are required to provide a particular salute but we are civilians.

Still we are in uniform and many of us are veterans so my advice to you is to act like the soldiers you are portraying.

Bill_Cross
01-09-2009, 11:58 AM
Hello!! We're not real soldiers. We don't have real rank, we're not wearing real uniforms, and when portraying real military units, we still aren't real soldiers! If you are dressed as a member of the 101st Airborne and you act like a soldier, I expect they'd kick your ass if any real Screaming Eagles were present.

Doff your cap, put your hand over your heart, do whatever you would as another civilian, because that's what you are. If your group is participating in a parade, ceremony, etc., then ask the organizers what they would prefer. But don't take yourself seriously.

Just because you portray a real soldier doesn't make you one.

MDRebCAv
01-09-2009, 12:23 PM
Congress has included the provisions of H.R.3380 and S.1877 in H.R. 4986, the National Defense Authorization Act of 2008, which President Bush signed into law on January 28th, 2008!

I am sure the "in uniform" refers to modern active-duty but as a veteran I intend to salute the flag now...since our reenacting uniforms would most likely be considered "civilian" clothing by this bill I will render a salute at all times, regardless of my clothing. You see, I don't consider my oath to defend the constitution as being dissolved by an honorable discharge either, and so I guess I sort of figure all veterans have earned the right.

The relevant section is Section 594 of the resolution and reads as follows:

SEC. 594. CONDUCT BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES AND VETERANS OUT OF UNIFORM DURING HOISTING, LOWERING, OR PASSING OF UNITED STATES FLAG.


Section 9 of title 4, United States Code, is amended by striking ‘‘all persons present’’ and all that follows through the end of the section and inserting the following: ‘‘all persons present in uniform should render the military salute. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute. All other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, or if applicable, remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Citizens of other countries present should stand at attention. All such conduct toward the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.’’

Bill_Cross
01-09-2009, 12:41 PM
As a veteran I intend to salute the flag now...since our reenacting uniforms would most likely be considered "civilian" clothing by this bill I will render a salute at all times, regardless of my clothing.
Agreed.

You're a veteran. I am not. Many of us are not. So we're civilians and should salute the flag in the tradtional way (uncovering, hand over heart, or at least standing respectfully).

We portray military units, but we're no closer to real military than actors. Those who have (or presently do) wear the uniform of real soldiers are a different matter.

Shortround
01-09-2009, 01:06 PM
Hello!! We're not real soldiers. We don't have real rank, we're not wearing real uniforms, and when portraying real military units, we still aren't real soldiers! If you are dressed as a member of the 101st Airborne and you act like a soldier, I expect they'd kick your ass if any real Screaming Eagles were present.

Doff your cap, put your hand over your heart, do whatever you would as another civilian, because that's what you are. If your group is participating in a parade, ceremony, etc., then ask the organizers what they would prefer. But don't take yourself seriously.

Just because you portray a real soldier doesn't make you one.

Actually, AR 670-1 covers this in detail. The regulations boils down to this: antique uniforms get a pass. Soldiers have to be careful about wearing a uniform from WWII or a modern era.

Example, if a real soldier wears a "Revy War" uniform as a colonel in Washinton's army then the real army does not care. At that point the Army knows you're a reenactor.

However, if a real soldier dresses up as a reenactor for WWII and wears 101st patches, has jump wings, is wearing a higher rank than authorized, then he is flirting with a one-on-one visit with his battalion or brigade commander. Article 15s are not cheap.

At Frankenmuth, Michigan some "kid" dressed up as an 82nd Airborne 2nd Lieutenant. He attracted the ex-Army personnel like bloody meat attracts sharks in the ocean. We locked his heels regarding his uniform, hair cut, patches, "rapelling ropes" (hanging threads; I can't stand them), blousing of the boots, shine on the boots, and the rest of his problems . Honestly, I don't think he ever wore the uniform again after that unpleasant experence. G*d would have to have mercy on his soul if we had found out he was an ROTC cadet.

Bottom line: the guys wearing the real or close to real uniforms will be policed. The reenactors may act as they wish because the real guys may not care.

(I will never "salute" a higher ranking reenactor if they have a cigar, pipe, or cigarette in their mouth or right hand)

MDRebCAv
01-09-2009, 01:34 PM
Yep...I agree 100% Although some may argue that wearing a reenacting uniform simply shows the way a soldier would have reacted...I do consider it an earned priviledge. I guess we'll just have to remember not to rush up to criticize a reenactor who salutes only to find out he was at Da Nang or Saigon. I would most likely regard this as being on the honor system and try to remember that at the bottom line...the attempt is to render respect.


Agreed.

You're a veteran. I am not. Many of us are not. So we're civilians and should salute the flag in the tradtional way (uncovering, hand over heart, or at least standing respectfully).

We portray military units, but we're no closer to real military than actors. Those who have (or presently do) wear the uniform of real soldiers are a different matter.

GaWildcat
01-09-2009, 01:37 PM
If out of ranks do as you should.. uncover and hand over heart, of if a vet or service member salute. If in ranks, do as instructed.

[RANT ON]

I have seen the reverse in action as well. At an event in Georgia a few years ago the Feds were marching off the field, colors flying and drums beating. The CAP was handling crowd control, and when the colors approached two female officers, in BDUs, with full insignia (one each Major and Captain) they just stood there. I approached them, in Cornfed uniform, saluted, Identified my self as a veteran of active service, and then questioned them as to why they did not salute the Colors of the United States? I stood slack jawed at their answers.

Capt: Its not the current flag.
Major: We just do this part time, we're not really military

Im sorry, number of stars don't matter, Its the flag of The United States! And if your going to wear the uniform of the CAP (IIRC, The Auxiliary of the United States Air Force), and display badges of rank commensurate with the badges worn by the same service, you should render the same honors, even more so if you are an adult member and there are impressionable cadets around you. Even more so when just a few paces down the line a serving Soldier in ACUs has just locked up and saluted the same flag. I was tactful, and polite, and but I do think they were shocked to be getting such a Posterior Mastication.
And yes, their actions were reported up their chain of command.

[RANT Off]

MDRebCAv
01-09-2009, 01:45 PM
You are correct--there is no prohibition against flying an "outdated" flag...and proper honors should be rendered to ANY U.S. flag. I think if I saw someone in modern uniform NOT salute I would give them the same treatment.

Ya done good.


If out of ranks do as you should.. uncover and hand over heart, of if a vet or service member salute. If in ranks, do as instructed.

[RANT ON]

I have seen the reverse in action as well. At an event in Georgia a few years ago the Feds were marching off the field, colors flying and drums beating. The CAP was handling crowd control, and when the colors approached two female officers, in BDUs, with full insignia (one each Major and Captain) they just stood there. I approached them, in Cornfed uniform, saluted, Identified my self as a veteran of active service, and then questioned them as to why they did not salute the Colors of the United States? I stood slack jawed at their answers.

Capt: Its not the current flag.
Major: We just do this part time, we're not really military

Im sorry, number of stars don't matter, Its the flag of The United States! And if your going to wear the uniform of the CAP (IIRC, The Auxiliary of the United States Air Force), and display badges of rank commensurate with the badges worn by the same service, you should render the same honors, even more so if you are an adult member and there are impressionable cadets around you. Even more so when just a few paces down the line a serving Soldier in ACUs has just locked up and saluted the same flag. I was tactful, and polite, and but I do think they were shocked to be getting such a Posterior Mastication.
And yes, their actions were reported up their chain of command.

[RANT Off]

bob 125th nysvi
01-10-2009, 03:35 PM
If you are dressed as a member of the 101st Airborne and you act like a soldier, I expect they'd kick your ass if any real Screaming Eagles were present.

is they don't.

What you'd "expect" and what I have experienced from real combat veterans is two vastly different things.

We have been invited MULTIPLE times to participate in firing honor guard salutes by the REAL veterans and rededications. Usually they fire the first two volleys and we fire the third.

So Bill you are more than entitled ot your opnion but until a REAL veteran tells me he to my face is insulted or embarassed or tells us we aren't welcome your opinion counts for didly-squat in my book.

Basically I'm taking the opinion of a REAL colonel over yours.

Poor Private
01-10-2009, 05:28 PM
Now to put another twist on this thread. What way is the proper wasy to salute? With the palm down or forward like the Brits do. I see it done both ways and was wondering what is correct? And told both ways. Is the south different than the north?

Robert A Mosher
01-10-2009, 05:56 PM
Now to put another twist on this thread. What way is the proper wasy to salute? With the palm down or forward like the Brits do. I see it done both ways and was wondering what is correct? And told both ways. Is the south different than the north?

Cris -
This discussion has been held before and those more patient than me may be able to find it. I studied a lot of period photos looking for pictures of people saluting and managed to find only a handful. These few examples in my view were inconclusive as I found examples of both styles of salute in evidence and the number was so few that I don't think any definite answer can be rendered. But if someone else wants to conduct a similar search I would be interested in what they find out.

Robert A. Mosher

Radar
01-10-2009, 09:08 PM
If out of ranks do as you should.. uncover and hand over heart, of if a vet or service member salute. If in ranks, do as instructed.

[RANT ON]

I have seen the reverse in action as well. At an event in Georgia a few years ago the Feds were marching off the field, colors flying and drums beating. The CAP was handling crowd control, and when the colors approached two female officers, in BDUs, with full insignia (one each Major and Captain) they just stood there. I approached them, in Cornfed uniform, saluted, Identified my self as a veteran of active service, and then questioned them as to why they did not salute the Colors of the United States? I stood slack jawed at their answers.

Capt: Its not the current flag.
Major: We just do this part time, we're not really military

Im sorry, number of stars don't matter, Its the flag of The United States! And if your going to wear the uniform of the CAP (IIRC, The Auxiliary of the United States Air Force), and display badges of rank commensurate with the badges worn by the same service, you should render the same honors, even more so if you are an adult member and there are impressionable cadets around you. Even more so when just a few paces down the line a serving Soldier in ACUs has just locked up and saluted the same flag. I was tactful, and polite, and but I do think they were shocked to be getting such a Posterior Mastication.
And yes, their actions were reported up their chain of command.

[RANT Off]

Some of these folks want some kind or recognition, but not the work that goes with the job.

TheQM
01-10-2009, 10:39 PM
Interesting discussion. I've been a reenactor for twenty years and was in the military for twenty-five years. As a reenactor, I've never been comfortable, with courtesies to the Flag or people in the military, no matter what I do.

It gets especially weird, when wearing a Confederate Army uniform.

tompritchett
01-10-2009, 11:17 PM
It gets especially weird, when wearing a Confederate Army uniform.

Given the new law allowing veterans to salute as if still in the military, just consider yourself a veteran.

Parault
01-11-2009, 12:25 AM
Cris -
This discussion has been held before and those more patient than me may be able to find it. I studied a lot of period photos looking for pictures of people saluting and managed to find only a handful. These few examples in my view were inconclusive as I found examples of both styles of salute in evidence and the number was so few that I don't think any definite answer can be rendered. But if someone else wants to conduct a similar search I would be interested in what they find out.

Robert A. Mosher
This was told to me when I first got into reenacting. If doing Confederate salute palm out. If doing Federal salute palm in. Now before anyone throws me under the bus for saying "I was told." I would like to know myself since a good amount of officers in the Southern military were in the U.S. military first.

Virginia Soldier
01-11-2009, 12:44 AM
While out on a job recently I spoke to a retired WO who is president of a local VFW. Just for information of our vets here we are allowed by congresional approval to now salute the flag and salute when the national anthem is played. I will admit I have not checked this out for myself for I only just found out about it.

VS

Virginia Soldier
01-11-2009, 12:46 AM
here it is

WASHINGTON -- Veterans and active-duty military not in uniform can now render the military-style hand salute during the playing of the national anthem, thanks to changes in federal law that took effect this month.

“The military salute is a unique gesture of respect that marks those who have served in our nation’s armed forces,” said Secretary of Veterans Affairs Dr. James B. Peake. “This provision allows the application of that honor in all events involving our nation’s flag.” [...]

flattop32355
01-11-2009, 12:56 AM
Now to put another twist on this thread. What way is the proper wasy to salute? With the palm down or forward like the Brits do. I see it done both ways and was wondering what is correct? And told both ways. Is the south different than the north?

The hand salute, according to the 1861 Revised Reulations for the Army of the United States:

256:When a soldier without arms, or with sidearms only, meets an officer, he is to raise his hand to the right side of the visor of his cap, palm to the front, elbow raised as high as the shoulder, looking at the same time in a respectful and soldier-like manner at the officer, who will return the compliment thus offered.

The 1863 Confederate regulations, paragraph 243, is similar.

Then there are sword and musket salutes, varying according to the rank of the officer saluted and other factors.

Virginia Soldier
01-11-2009, 12:45 PM
Tom that was getting to the point. A lot of us here are veterans and I am very proud to be one. Now I can send the message that I served no matter if in blue or grey

VS

Pvt. Sweetey
01-11-2009, 12:49 PM
If wearing regular clothes and not a veteran, hand over heart. If your in CW uniform, salute. If you're a veteran, salute.If you're in a group/organization that gives you the option to salute (Boy Scouts, Government-elected position, ect.), salute. I salute when in Boy scout uniform. I don't salute when playing rebel but I do have hand over my heart and remove my hat. Obviously a lot of you guys are into "authenticity". Isn't it "authentic" to salute the flag and act like a soldier?

Just my 2 cents

sbl
01-11-2009, 01:13 PM
Individuals have the options of how to salute. What about saluting as a unit of vets and non-vets and maintaining a unit "look" and not a "Chinese fire-drill" that the public doesn't understand?

Robert A Mosher
01-11-2009, 02:04 PM
The hand salute, according to the 1861 Revised Reulations for the Army of the United States:

256:When a soldier without arms, or with sidearms only, meets an officer, he is to raise his hand to the right side of the visor of his cap, palm to the front, elbow raised as high as the shoulder, looking at the same time in a respectful and soldier-like manner at the officer, who will return the compliment thus offered.

The 1863 Confederate regulations, paragraph 243, is similar.

Then there are sword and musket salutes, varying according to the rank of the officer saluted and other factors.

Bernie -
Thanks for the citation and thats informative, but I also know that you know very well the questions of what the soldiers were supposed to do and what they actually did do. I will point out in this regard that of the few photos in which I found anyone rendering a hand salute, I found only one in which is was executed with the palm facing front - and this was of a pre-war Southern militia unit. However, as I said in an earlier posting in this thread, the number of photographs showing the hand salute was less than ten and I would not argue that so few examples constitutes any kind of proof.

Robert A. Mosher

DonSmithnotTMD
01-11-2009, 03:21 PM
I would like to venture afield a bit.

Someone here knows way better than I do, but the way I understand it most of the sometimes confusing flag etiquette rules were promulgated by the KKK in the 1920s. I don't mean the military rules since they have existed for a long time.

Another question I have regards a parade I went to. There was a Union reenacting unit in the parade that for some reason halted and fired a volley when they approached a U.S. flag hanging vertically across the street. I have never been able to figure that one out.

Thanks,
Don

tompritchett
01-11-2009, 03:40 PM
However, as I said in an earlier posting in this thread, the number of photographs showing the hand salute was less than ten and I would not argue that so few examples constitutes any kind of proof.

With the exception that it tends to prove that it was not as standardized as just quoting the regulations would lead one to believe. I can remember years ago when Tim Kindred made a post where he noticed the difference in regulations and in the manner the veterans at the 50th Gettysburg reunion were saluting (earlier that same day we had watched the film at the Harrisburg Civil War Museum after the end of a weekend workshop organized by Bill Cross).

tompritchett
01-11-2009, 03:44 PM
I would like to venture afield a bit.

Someone here knows way better than I do, but the way I understand it most of the sometimes confusing flag etiquette rules were promulgated by the KKK in the 1920s. I don't mean the military rules since they have existed for a long time.

Now you have roused my curiosity - could you provide a couple of examples of these non-military etiquette rules?


Another question I have regards a parade I went to. There was a Union reenacting unit in the parade that for some reason halted and fired a volley when they approached a U.S. flag hanging vertically across the street. I have never been able to figure that one out.

Thanks,
Don

The best that I could figure is that they were firing a some form of salute.

hanktrent
01-11-2009, 04:33 PM
Obviously a lot of you guys are into "authenticity". Isn't it "authentic" to salute the flag and act like a soldier?

Y'know, I think this is one of the times when trying to decide what's most authentic doesn't really help, unless there's no doubt that everyone is supposed to be "in character" when the situation occurs, which is rare at parades and modern ceremonies. And if in character, the next question is, what's the historic situation we're taking part in? A post-war blue-gray reunion? Each side marching independently in its own wartime patriotic parade? That determines which flags we'd "see" and how we'd respond to them. Once those questions are settled, deciding the authentic answer is much simpler (except for that question of palm down or palm out. :) ).

But otherwise, we're just modern people, who outwardly appear to be something else. Like Bill said, most anything can feel awkward.

I've told the story about Linda and me invited to give a CW roundtable lecture, her portraying a unionist and me a Confederate surgeon, supposedly meeting during the war on some vague neutral ground to talk about medical care on both sides. We were introduced in character--the deal was that we'd be in character from the start--and then got taken by surprise when the meeting was started with the Pledge of Allegiance.

The choice was easy, because we knew we were in character and knew the premise. She stood respectfully with hand on heart but didn't recite it because she wouldn't have known the words. I watched silently with a disgusted look and showed no respect.

But what if we hadn't been in character? A "Confederate officer" suddenly "taking the oath" on demand could almost seem humorous, yet if I'm not in character then I'm just me, even if I'm in funny clothes, and I'd naturally recite the pledge. Any answer is sorta right, and sorta wrong, and sorta awkward.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

DonSmithnotTMD
01-11-2009, 05:41 PM
Now you have roused my curiosity - could you provide a couple of examples of these non-military etiquette rules?



The best that I could figure is that they were firing a some form of salute.


This stuff
http://www.heritage-flag.com/heritage_etiquette.htm

http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html

http://www.usps.org/f_stuff/etiquett.html



and yes I was thinking that. Just unclear about the reasoning behind that instead of going to right shoulder shift and the officer rendering a (I think) sword salute or maybe hand salute (not sure).

tompritchett
01-11-2009, 09:10 PM
This stuff
http://www.heritage-flag.com/heritage_etiquette.htm

I guess my question would be which of the various equiquette rules came originally from military practice, from the KKK and from other sources. If I remember correctly, the never dipping the U.S. flag came from Jessie Owen's decision not dip the flag in salute when passing by Hitler during the opening ceremonies of the Berlin Olympics. I suspect the practices for raising the flag to half-mast and lowering it from that position probably came from the military.

ejazzyjeff
01-16-2009, 01:24 PM
The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing, unless it is the ensign responding to a salute from a ship of a foreign nation. This tradition comes from the 1908 Summer Olympics in London, where countries were asked to dip their flag to King Edward VII: the American team flag bearer, Ralph Rose, refused, teammate Martin Sheridan famously proclaiming that "this flag dips to no earthly king."[1] This tradition was codified as early as the 1911 U.S. Army drill regulations.[2]

Here's another about flag dipping at the Olympics.

The U.S. Navy does dip the flag, when underway. But there are requirements that need to be met; we do not dip the flag unless in return for such compliment, and there is a list of countries we will never dip the flag and I believe this tradition has been around since the Revolutionary War.