Operationally adequate?

[bill watson]

It just occurred to me that the number of people and units capable of taking to the field as an operational unit is growing all the time. That would be 186x military fashion, all the time you're at an event, from the private to the general.

A checklist:

Can your unit:

1. Issue and prepare period rations quickly and without fuss, using period equipment, contains and tools?
2. Create a grand guard force that can then be deployed realistically in terms of terrain and avenues of approach and whatnot? That can effectively screen your main force rather than stand out in the woods and shout?
3. Train in drill correctly, that is, properly instructed and supervised noncommissioned officers handle the training of skills to the individual soldiers and small groups?
4. Pick itself up Saturday morning, move a half mile and create a comfortable and even defensible bivouac?
5. Back up the activity with period paperwork, to overlay a nice patina of bureaucratic realism over everthing? (No rations without the morning reports, for instance.)

There are units out there that can do all that. Is yours among them?

Isn't this how we have fun?

[bill watson]

Containers, not "contains". Coffee first, then type. :-)

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Bill,

Darn few groups or clubs are capable of more than one of those things. Fewer still are capable of doing them in a manner remiscent of how Civil War-era soldiers did them.

[bill watson]

5 percent? :-)

[bob 125th nysvi]

Why settle for:


4. Pick itself up Saturday morning, move a half mile and create a comfortable and even defensible bivouac?


The real ones did it after going 20 miles on Friday and anticipated going another 20 on Saturday.

So before we get into the "how authentic is your unit" stuff please admit right up front NONE of us can perform like they did.

Then we can have an honest discussion.

Anything less is just a matter of degrees as to how far you are from the real thing.

[Memphis]

If you go more than that whopping 880 yards, don't forget to bring a map unless you are portraying Huger or Wallace, in which case feel free to get lost several times in one day.

[Anders]

Rob\g,

Good to see you playing nice.

Bill brings up a good point, how many units can actually function in a military manner? A periood military manner, with all logistics covered as was done then.

Some units act like "clubs" on the field, and in fact we are clubs, but not in the field my friends.

I will say I am proud the CVG can do so, and has shown such at each event. This has very little to do with me, and more to do with our membership than anything. Good solid NCO's and Company Officers who know the "what, when and how"

And we are looking forward to October to show it again.

Pards,

[Huck Finn]

Kev is far too humble to state the obvious. The Columbia Rifles have built their reputation on doing these things. Heck, one member just finished a 110 mile hike in period garb. He's nuts, but we still love him.

[texyank]

I don't accept the premise that reenactors are automatically unable to perform these types of campaign maneuvers simply because we are living in the 21st century.

I am also rather certain that 20 miles per day is not a common distance covered, except during forced marches and that definitely would not be sustained over many days without rest.

I am interested in how long said crazy reenactor took to hike 110 miles?

Yer pard,

Jason Hamby

26.2

[hanktrent]

I am interested in how long said crazy reenactor took to hike 110 miles?

Six days.

Hank Trent
(Not a Columbia Rifles member, but the only witness)
hanktrent@voyager.net

[7WVaCranston]

Heck, one member just finished a 110 mile hike in period garb. He's nuts, but we still love him.

As an avid backpacker, I have thought about doing this. What type of terrain did he hike, if I may ask?

[Linda Trent]

As an avid backpacker, I have thought about doing this. What type of terrain did he hike, if I may ask?

If it's the same guy as on the OTB, it was the C&O Canal. I saw him when they reached Harper's Ferry. :p

Linda.

[hanktrent]

Six days.

Actually, on second thought, that answer isn't quite right, concerning how long it took to walk 110 miles. I believe the correct answer is nine years. He told me it took him that long to find someone else who wanted to do it with him.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[texyank]

I wish I had known about it, I would have jumped at the chance.

But then I was probably in the middle of one of my "retirements" from the hobby.

Jason Hamby

lunatic

hater of benevolence by proxy

[hanktrent]

I wish I had known about it, I would have jumped at the chance.

But then I was probably in the middle of one of my "retirements" from the hobby.

Note that it was organized as a civilian event, not military, probably due to weapons restrictions of the site, though a soldier on leave would also do. There were only two participants and the event was lucky to get that many, so it's not like these things require massive coordination. There's no support or sag wagon. You carry everything and rely on available water sources or treating natural water.

If you're serious about jumping at the chance to do the same thing, I have a standing offer for something similar, in the 50-mile range, but very steep, so 10-15 miles a day, in Ohio. Or the canal towpath is still there too.

Rules are no modern talk, no anachronisms except health & safety.

Email me at the address below to schedule a date.

Hank Trent
"Talk is cheap"
hanktrent@voyager.net

[texyank]

Hank,

email sent. Hope we can make it work.

yer pard,

Jason Hamby

[Stickbug]

We did the Sixth Corps March in 2003 from Fairfax Courthouse, Va. to Gettysburg, PA. Original route, original timetable. Period rations, using only what we could carry, the whole nine yards. 120 miles, six days. The last day was 37 miles in 17 hours, arriving on Little Round Top the same hour they did, 140 years later. Special kudos to "Iron Joe" Bordonaro.

Anyone want to come in 2008? ;) Registration is now open. It'll be cafeteria style, come for a few miles, come for a day, come for the whole trip. We're told we'll have a "truckload" of Australians along again, so you know it will be fun!

Doug

[bill watson]

Why settle for:



The real ones did it after going 20 miles on Friday and anticipated going another 20 on Saturday.

So before we get into the "how authentic is your unit" stuff please admit right up front NONE of us can perform like they did.

Then we can have an honest discussion.

Anything less is just a matter of degrees as to how far you are from the real thing.


Bob,

None of us can perform like they did. Happy now? Do you mind if some of us try to get closer to the mark than we are now?

Let me restate to make the point clearer: How many units can pick themselves up Saturday morning, move EVEN a half mile, and establish a comfortable and defensible bivouac?

The distance wasn't my point. If you can do it at all, the distance for us is usually primarily a function of available time and space. With notable exceptions, we run out of them before the issue of stamina is joined.

[Crabby]

AoP - Done it, been there, some even have the t-shirt.

Red River I, II
Raymond
Port Hudson
Pickets Mill
Franklin
Perryville
Etc....

Not just the talk, but the walk. Proper rations, ordinance, supplies - none without the proper paperwork.

Crabby
formerly,
QM AoP

[bill watson]

The AOP was one of the primary motivators for me improving my game. Stood out at the "Good" Antietam like a two-inch diamond in a field of turnips.

[bill watson]

"Got hat pin?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby
Not just the talk, but the walk. Proper rations, ordinance, supplies - none without the proper paperwork.
[deletion - removal of quote of insult; THP]
__________________
Rog"

-----------
I think you've got (or perhaps would like to give) the wrong impression, "Rog." The question was asked specifically to get information like that posted by Chris Anders and Crabby. There's a lot of groups in reenacting -- with a lot of prime members in terms of age and physical condition -- who never see the Army of the Pacific, the Potomac Legion, the Chesapeake Volunteer Guard or any of the other units who attempt to do some or all these things at various events, because they don't go to those events. They don't even know such events exist. Some of them do post here, however, and it's my belief that telling them how far along some folks have gotten, and how much farther they'd like to try to get down the road to "experiencing history," might prompt a few guys to give it a try.

The idea of issuing rations or any of these things is pretty foreign to some groups. And there are guys in them who are frustrated and want something more. I've been quietly canvassing events this year, and at every one there have been lean young fellows asking "Why are we sitting around waiting for the women to serve the potato salad?" and "Why don't the officers know the drill?" and "Aren't the spectators being cheated when we tell them this is history?" There is chronic frustration out there and I'd like to give it a place to go.

I mean, "Rog," if your group doesn't want recruits, sit back and take potshots. If you do want recruits, step up and remind everyone exactly what group you belong to and what it's doing these days that makes for a better experience reenacting history.

Remember, "Rog," I don't have membership in any of these groups. I belong to a hometown group here in the Poconos where I do the cooking at living histories. Attendance at other events is through the kindness of strangers. I don't belong to one of the "name" groups any longer. I am unable to reconcile the conflict of small group dynamics with the missionary zeal I'd like to bring to bear regarding history-heavy reenacting. People give words more weight if the pitch isn't followed by "so join my group."

So in my world, if one mainstreamer moves to a unit that won't allow coolers, it's a good day. And if he then talks three guys into going to Payne's Farm with the Potomac Legion, it's a better day. Or somewhere with the AOP, the Stonewall Brigade, etc. Or join up with Stickbug for the VI Corps sprint. It's all good.

So, "Rog," what's your group up to?

[Anders]

Bill,

Excellent points- lets face it, folks don't join the hobby to sit around and drink beer out of rusty tin cups and eat funnel cakes.

Folks joined to experience the Civil War, and somehow the hobby morphed into some twisted fraternal organization of old timey firework displays gone bad.

There are events that do it different. There are groups that do it different. There is the Civil War Experience to be had out there.

You just have to invest the time to find it, and be willing to sacrifice to do so.

Only be delivering a better experience can the hobby continue. Money and time are both too short to waste on non fufilling pursuits.

Pards,

[Kevin O'Beirne]

5 percent? :-)

Bill,

Maybe five percent claim they are capable of the things of which you speak, but the fact is, the vast majority of that so-called "five percent" are not capable of more than one, maybe two, of the activities you listed. Heck, most reenactors have an attention span that's hardly longer than 24 hours at a stretch, let alone with the will to study and develop the skills and goods necessary to re-create multiple aspects of the period, in a realistic fashion, for any length of time.

I'm not trying to be negative, simply stating the facts. There's a lot of folks out there who claim to be able to do certain things, or talk a good game on the Internet, and when you see 'em in person doing their thing, it's not anything like what one reads about in the history books. Of couse, when such folks are asked about how or why they are doing (or not doing) what they're doing (or not doing), they typically get defensive and testy. Anymore I don't bother even asking the questions.

The fact is, all types of Civil War reenactors, and probably folks who portray other periods (although I can't speak knowledgably about other periods, having only reenacted Civil War), can do a significantly better job if only they'd read up on some of the history of what they're portraying, and read some of the handbooks developed specifically for reenators. As just one example, Dom Dal Bello has written two very good drill/drill-type handbooks for reenactors; most reenactors with whom I work own one or both volumes of Dom's work, but relatively few actually know how do what he wrote about. To burrow down even further, how a camp guard detail was done, versus how picket duty was done, versus how skirmishing was done, are all (as I see it) fairly easy to comprehend, but the knowledge of how you do those things, even at the private/corporal level, is very rare indeed. Heck, most reenactors I know still mix up guard mounting with guard duty.

The hobby(ies) have a long way to go.

[bill watson]

"The hobby(ies) have a long way to go."

Absolutely. Keeping in mind, of course, that in the vastness of reenacting, a great many don't particularly want to go anywhere except where they happen to already be.

But among those who do want more, there are several groups now that at least aspire to do more things functionally. We've all attended events where the various staff officers, company commanders and first sergeants all went home cheerfully exhausted because they spent the weekend trying to do what their counterparts did in 186x. They keep coming back, so it must be what they're looking for.

Sometimes we may try to do too much in a given weekend, and too much of it is on the learning curve, on-the-job training in three activities or whatever. But that's preferable to the alternative, which is events where you get looked at like you've got a third eye when you comport yourself like someone from the 1860s.

[bob 125th nysvi]

Can your unit:

1. Issue and prepare period rations quickly and without fuss, using period equipment, contains and tools??

Yep, we've done that.


2. Create a grand guard force that can then be deployed realistically in terms of terrain and avenues of approach and whatnot? That can effectively screen your main force rather than stand out in the woods and shout??

Done that too but I suspect our success was based on the (lack of) quality of the opposition. They should have been able to flank us or push us in we only numbered 10 guys.


3. Train in drill correctly, that is, properly instructed and supervised noncommissioned officers handle the training of skills to the individual soldiers and small groups??

Do it at every event we're at.


4. Pick itself up Saturday morning, move a half mile and create a comfortable and even defensible bivouac??

Never been at an event that called for. If not informed it was going to happen probably not, we have a couple of heavy campers. If informed we do have the knowledge to do so.


5. Back up the activity with period paperwork, to overlay a nice patina of bureaucratic realism over everthing? (No rations without the morning reports, for instance.)?

Tried that once and event staff told us they weren't interested in our reports. And wouldn't something like 'rations' depend on the scenario. If you're on campaign you should already have three days worth on you.

So do we have the knowledge, yes.

Does the unit have the desire, some members do some don't.

Opportunity, I don't know, Chris you moving everybody around at September Storm?

[RJSamp]

It just occurred to me that the number of people and units capable of taking to the field as an operational unit is growing all the time. That would be 186x military fashion, all the time you're at an event, from the private to the general.

A checklist:

Can your unit:

1. Issue and prepare period rations quickly and without fuss, using period equipment, containers ,and tools?
2. Create a grand guard force that can then be deployed realistically in terms of terrain and avenues of approach and whatnot? That can effectively screen your main force rather than stand out in the woods and shout?
3. Train in drill correctly, that is, properly instructed and supervised noncommissioned officers handle the training of skills to the individual soldiers and small groups?
4. Pick itself up Saturday morning, move a half mile and create a comfortable and even defensible bivouac?
5. Back up the activity with period paperwork, to overlay a nice patina of bureaucratic realism over everthing? (No rations without the morning reports, for instance.)

There are units out there that can do all that. Is yours among them?

Isn't this how we have fun?

to Which Add:

6. Run the camp through Field Musics/Bugler with a minimum of officers walking up to camp and asking when Officer's Call or Company Drill will be (it's when the bugle sounds boys).

7. Hold a Parade, Troop the Colors, and make it look like a million bucks (in 2007 dollars).

8. Shake a company of skirmishers out and manuever them by the bugle out of sight of your main unit.

9. Any field grade officer's to be mounted.

10. Advance into unknown territory in a column of manuever with appropriate flankers and forward scouts.

At Raymond 2001, we had CSA units that could NOT, and would NOT, move a half mile....the Federals moved to an alternative camp for that night's bivouac.

At Perryville 2006 we had units that moved to another bivouac and were chastised by the cph crowd for doing so.

Hank's or Doug's long distance marches, while commendable, don't do justice to what they did back then. The stopping and starting of a Division at route step, with the 6 inch thick dust on the roads rising around you, can't be duplicated marching alone, in a small group, on modern tarmac or seldom used trails. Throw in a little interaction with building bridges, fording everything else (including the Potomac), enemy patrols, carry a brick of lead, and the whole game changes.

#5 is a nice one. We have a unit in the FFD that gives us an Ammo Expenditure report every day. And several units that I know of keep records of their Arms by serial number. Topo Maps and on the march topo diaries are rare in the hobby....the Topo Engineers are marvellous at this in the FFD. And I've never seen a Topo / Route diary from any unit except Ken Gough and the 64th IL. As you march along you sketch out your observations of terrain, roads, water, crops, etc.....basically a preliminary map. You can get your mileage from the revolution counter on your unit's wagon (is that #11 on the list?).

5%? of Units? How big is a unit? less than 100 rifles?
Spare us.

The First Federal Division did a lot of this at Raymond......
The AOP does it yearly.
McDowell came pretty close, but does that count as a 'unit'?

Good stuff to strive for Bill....unfortunately you just left a few dozen cph 'units' and events in the dust as well.

[bob 125th nysvi]

9. Any field grade officer's to be mounted.

but while I understand the authenticity of this one the sad fact is most of the officers I've seen in the saddle can't handle a spirited animal worth the manure it produces.

Usually a case of too much horse and not enough rider.

So Sirs take more than a FEW riding lessons/trail rides before you decided to mount up. It will be safer for you, the horse and us fellows left on the ground.

[Anders]

Bob,

At September Storm the troops will not be relocated, unless thier commanders chose to do so within thier areas.

The event is not based on such, but rather accurate depictions of the engagements.

Planning a few events which will involve such in a bit

Pards,

[Memphis]

So it the QM of the AOP is not the only one with a hat pin. Any Mudsills in the audience this afternoon? What about others who were doing this five, ten, fifteen, or dare we suggest twenty years ago?

Makes you go hmmmmmmm.

[hanktrent]

Hank's or Doug's long distance marches, while commendable, don't do justice to what they did back then. The stopping and starting of a Division at route step, with the 6 inch thick dust on the roads rising around you, can't be duplicated marching alone, in a small group, on modern tarmac or seldom used trails.

Which is why no long-distance "march" (walk) that I've done or plan to do is billed as a re-creation of anything military, including the 110-mile one organized by the "Columbia Rifles member." ;)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net