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Gregg Hensley
05-06-2007, 07:14 PM
Yesterday morning at 6:30, Camp #379 SCV raised the 1st National Flag from the courthouse flagpole in Marion, N.C. A Monument Dedication ceremony was held at 2 pm to dedicate the new Confederate monument (also at the courthouse) that Camp #379 had worked long and hard to make a reality. Between the timeframe of 11:30 AM (when it was last observed flying from the flagpole) and 1 pm (when the first folks arrived for the ceremony) the flag was stolen. Obviously, this theft wasn't the work of a petty thief or a crackhead. This theft was done deliberately by someone for whatever reasons they may have. Undaunted, when we discovered the theft of OUR flag, we immediately procured another 1st National and raised it during the ceremony. Needless to say, we are angry, saddened and disappointed about this theft.

My thoughts are jumbled about this ugly theft, but one thing is clear. WE were honoring our ancestors who fought for their beliefs. They deserve to be honored. The rightness of their Cause will hopefully be debated for generations to come, but the simple fact is that they left their homes and families to an uncertain future and died by the thousands for their beliefs. May the Good Lord pass a harsh judgement on the flag thief.


Gregg Hensley
Camp #379 SCV
Sgt. 22nd NCST Co.K

ThumbStall
05-07-2007, 12:54 PM
More Confederate victimology. I am completely unsympathetic.

Several years ago an attempt was made to place a monument to the Union soldiers who fell at Bentonville, NC. Seems the park felt they deserved to be honored too. But CS victimologists raised a ruckus because they didn't want a monument put up to Sherman's dirty thieving, raping yankees. So, no monument to American soldiers who fought and died under the Stars and Stripes because all of them... every single one of them... were theiving, raping yankees. :rolleyes: And people in the south wonder why the CS flag is so hated.

sbl
05-07-2007, 01:19 PM
Harrison,

I haven't been to a Bentonville reenactment since the 90s (It was pretty good too!) and the no monument issue was hot then.

tompritchett
05-07-2007, 01:58 PM
And since when does two wrongs make a right? "And" in modern ethics and morality does not mean the same thing as the Boolean "And", which is what your reply seems to imply. The same holds true in Christian ethics as Christ's teaching of forgiveness (esp. the line in the Lord's prayer of forgive us as we forgive others), turn the other cheek, he is without sin cast the first stone, and walk another mile superceded the Old Testament teachings of an eye for an eye.

flattop32355
05-07-2007, 02:50 PM
1) A theft. Someone took property not theirs. The reason doesn't matter. They should make restitution when caught.

2) When the flying of a Confederate flag is appropriate. That's probably an item for another thread, but in this case, it seems to me to be appropriate, whether some folks care for it or not. (This coming from a staunch Union man.)

tompritchett
05-07-2007, 04:18 PM
Two issues, here

On both counts, we are in agreement.

Gregg Hensley
05-07-2007, 05:58 PM
Pardon me? Suddenly, a thread reporting the theft of a flag turns into an issue about a Union monument at Bentonville?

The flag that was flown this year and for the past 4 years is the First National CS Flag.This flag was flown for 1 day only, to honor Confederate Memorial Day. The flag was flown with the approval of City Council and County Commission. I would venture a guesstimate that maybe 5% of North Carolinians would even recognize the flag. Now, on this same courthouse lawn in May 1861, 2 companies of troops were raised, with many more men to follow over the next 4 years. The total ended up being approx. 730 men from little McDowell County who fought for the Confederacy. Just the same as a little county in Illinois or maybe Pennsylvania, don't these men deserve to be recognized for their sacrifices?

I won't debate the good and bad of The War, other than to say that it was ugly, horrific, and many Americans died and suffered. ALL of them should be remembered and honored where they fought and died! Whether these Americans wore blue or gray, is in my humble old Confederate heart,totally irrelevant. It is unfortunate that there isn't a Monument to the Federals who fought at Bentonville, but that wasn't what this thread was about.You can lump me with "victimologists" if you like, but I'm proud of every one of the soldiers who went off to war.

By the way, we said a prayer, turned the other cheek, and went on about our business, after filing as police report of course.

Gregg Hensley
Camp #379 SCV
22nd NCST Troops, Co. K
85th NY, when the need arises

Wounded_Zouave
05-08-2007, 09:29 AM
Actually, I think the two issues are indeed related.

For clearification, the Bentonville monumument controversy was as follows:

In 1995 a local living history group thought it would be nice to have a monument to Union troops at Bentonville since there are already several monuments to the confederates there. They raised the money, then sought permission to place the monument within the park. The park was OK with the idea. But then a local newspaper published a hysterical letter-to-the-editor that stated that a statue to Sherman was going to be erected at Bentonville, using NC public funds. The truth never had a chance after that. The SVC even got involved and one of their representatives was quoted as saying he didn't want to see a monument erected to "thieves, murderers, rapists and trespassers." As a result, the monument was never placed because the truth never had a chance.*

The relevance between the two? Gregg, you wrote, “May the Good Lord pass a harsh judgment on the flag thief.” Perhaps the theft of your flag was allowed by the Good Lord himself in order to balance the scales of justice that have remained imbalanced in NC since the Bentonville incident when some North Carolinians deliberately calumniated the memory of dead Union soldiers. The Lord indeed works in mysterious ways.


* Recounted in the book “Lies Across America: What Our Historic Sites Get Wrong” by James W. Loewen (Touchstone 2000)

D'Epineuil Zouave
05-08-2007, 10:16 AM
Mr. Hensley wrote:


Obviously, this theft wasn't the work of a petty thief or a crackhead. This theft was done deliberately by someone for whatever reasons they may have.

For whatever reasons they have? Excuse me? You obviously has no doubts whatsoever about why the flag was stolen. Indeed, it gives you the perfect opportunity to report the theft on this forum in order to issue a polemic about the...


The rightness of their Cause...

And then when someone dare makes a comparison to an unrelated but equally polar opposite incident, you say...


It is unfortunate that there isn't a Monument to the Federals who fought at Bentonville...

If so, then why didn't the SCV step up to the plate back in 1995 and say...


ALL of them should be remembered and honored where they fought and died!

... and support the erection of a monument to the Federals at Bentonville?


- John D. Yoegh

Bloated_Corpse
05-08-2007, 10:37 AM
The initial business of the CSA was to engaed in the of stealing of U.S. property such as forts, arsenals, and shipyards so it's rather hilarious that someone is now complaining about the theft of a cheap reproduction 1st National Confederate flag. :lol: Turnabout is fair play!!!

sbl
05-08-2007, 11:57 AM
There were colonists like Franklin and Washington who saw the Boston Tea Party as just vandalism.

flattop32355
05-08-2007, 12:59 PM
All you get from tit-for-tat is an escalating fight. We should be above that here, not to mention knowing better.

I also doubt that God allowed the flag to be taken as a make-up call for not placing a Federal monument years ago. Get real, people, or at least use more smilies to show you're not serious. Where's a dancing banana when you really need one!

The reasons for the theft could be one or more of many: random vandalism, dislike of the Confederate cause/flag, prank, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Why doesn't matter; the end result is still the same. Property was stolen. Hopefully the thief will be caught, the flag recovered, and justice done for a crime committed.

As for us, we have better things to dwell on than petty one-upmanship.

Just one man's opinion.

tompritchett
05-08-2007, 01:03 PM
Gentlemen, may I remind all of you that the War was decided well over 100 years ago. There is no need to refight again. The action at Marion NC was indeed regretable and uncalled for as was the opposition to the monument at Bentonville to the Federal soldiers that died there. Neither action justified the other. I thought as reenactors we are honoring all that fought, bled, and died in the Civil War. IMHO, if you can only honor one side, then you may be in the wrong hobby.

Gregg Hensley
05-08-2007, 07:20 PM
I must say, gentlemen, and I do mean gentlemen, that my post and my words got some folks stirred up. That in a way is a good thing. I appreciate the last 2 posts, which hopefully calmed the waters. I appreciate Tom's remark about honoring only one side. Just because I'm a Tar Heel, do you think I don't honor Union troops? Just because I'm a Confederate, am I supposed to hate Yankees? The Union troops bled on the same battlefields as our boys did, and I'll be darned if I'll disrespect a man who fought it out with the boys in gray. I mean no disrespect to anyone in any way, so y'all try to be civil. I am surprised at the venom (for lack of a better word) that was shown.

The flag was stolen. Period. That is a crime. It was flown for one day to honor 730 soldiers who went off to war. Period.

Btw, I wasn't a member of the SCV in 95, and until it was brought up in this thread (which I now regret even starting), I wasn't aware about the Bentonville monument episode.

Gregg Hensley
Camp #379 SCV
22nd NCST Co. K

toptimlrd
05-08-2007, 07:47 PM
Gregg,

Have no regrets. From what I have seen in their other posts, the detractors here are barely above the level of flame baiters and trolls; in fact I am still not convinced they are not those things anyway. I always pity those in my part of the country who continue to fight the war and am somewhat surprised to find people on the victors side who are also still fighting it. I am proud of the part of the country I live in, proud of those who took a stand when they felt their homes were threatened and am proud of those who defended the Stars and Stripes at the same time to protect the union. I have volunteered to fight to the death to defend the freedoms that we enjoy even the freedoms of those whose opinions whom I diametrically oppose. To many they never get above the Romper Room level when it comes to debate so I leave them there to find those with an intellect more worthy of discourse about substansive topics. This whole discussion about the flag vs. Bentonville reminds me of a time when I was called to my son's school after he had been in a playground scuffle. When the principal interviewed the two boys, the other one blurted "it all started when HE HIT ME BACK". This tit for tat really belongs in the schoolyard, I wonder how long it will be before people start talking about each others mothers at this point?

Sgt_Pepper
05-09-2007, 08:56 AM
Very well said, Mr. Collett. Thank you.

To all: Don't even think about bringing mothers into this. :evil:

Provost
05-09-2007, 07:36 PM
Especially with Mother's Day coming up.

Provost

sbl
05-10-2007, 04:17 AM
My late mother told me to hit back. I miss her.

Gregg Hensley
05-10-2007, 04:33 AM
My thanks also, Mr. Collett. As a veteran of the flame wars from many years ago, I should have picked up on it quickly. I didn't, but I have no intention of fanning the flames now. I will say that I find it mildly amusing at the amount of time someone would spend dissecting and examining my post trying to find an agenda.

Ok, you said don't bring mothers up. Forgive me, but please tell your mother how important she is and do something nice for her on Mother's Day! After my father passed away 2 years ago, it made me realize just how precious parents are.


Gregg Hensley
22nd NCST, Co K
Camp #379 SCV

lazyrebel2
05-10-2007, 12:52 PM
Tom is right sadley the we lost the war :rolleyes: , but we have to carry on.

I remember going to Bentonville back in the 80's and the monument was an issue back then too. Oh well, maybe we could put a monument to the CS guys that raided that little town in Vermont!:cool:

sbl
05-10-2007, 04:54 PM
..cain't get theyer from heyah!"

(Yankee humor)


Tom is right sadley the we lost the war :rolleyes: , but we have to carry on.

I remember going to Bentonville back in the 80's and the monument was an issue back then too. Oh well, maybe we could put a monument to the CS guys that raided that little town in Vermont!:cool:


Ok, It's a marker...

http://www.vermontcivilwar.org/staraid/staraid.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Albans_Raid


There was even a movie!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047388/

reb64
05-10-2007, 06:22 PM
Pardon me? Suddenly, a thread reporting the theft of a flag turns into an issue about a Union monument at Bentonville?


22nd NCST Troops, Co. K
85th NY, when the need arises


a cs monument was not allowed on the Mine creek battlefield after it was agreed to. somewhere on the field is a mass grave of on the spot massacre of blue coat wearing southeners. SCV fought ot have monument, got permision and then denied again. solution: put the monument on private property right near the main battlefield viewing area. should we hate the US flag because of some stubborn red tape pushers? of course not, just a reason why we have such gruops as the suv and scv to mend fences and carry on the heritage fight peacefully. re raise the flag, guard it or take it down when not watched. just do it peacefully and with purpose to show the thieves they don't matter.

reb64
05-10-2007, 06:27 PM
The initial business of the CSA was to engaed in the of stealing of U.S. property such as forts, arsenals, and shipyards so it's rather hilarious that someone is now complaining about the theft of a cheap reproduction 1st National Confederate flag. :lol: Turnabout is fair play!!!


In the case of the CSa securing state property at least you knew who did it, they didn't hide the fact , wrong or right. these flag thieves are cowards. no honor.

reb64
05-10-2007, 06:30 PM
All you get from tit-for-tat is an escalating fight. We should be above that here, not to mention knowing better.

I also doubt that God allowed the flag to be taken as a make-up call for not placing a Federal monument years ago. Get real, people, or at least use more smilies to show you're not serious. Where's a dancing banana when you really need one!

The reasons for the theft could be one or more of many: random vandalism, dislike of the Confederate cause/flag, prank, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Why doesn't matter; the end result is still the same. Property was stolen. Hopefully the thief will be caught, the flag recovered, and justice done for a crime committed.

As for us, we have better things to dwell on than petty one-upmanship.

Just one man's opinion.


if anything, a statue to lincoln in richmond should equal a lot of overdue monuments you yanks want.

Sgt_Pepper
05-10-2007, 09:21 PM
if anything, a statue to Lincoln in Richmond should equal a lot of overdue monuments you yanks want.

Allow me to quote Mr. Biederman, as you apparently missed his point: "As for us, we have better things to dwell on than petty one-upmanship."

Che
05-11-2007, 08:07 AM
...just a reason why we have such gruops as the suv and scv to mend fences and carry on the heritage fight peacefully.

I hate politics... particularly the regurgitated Civil War kind, but let me respectfully ask a question that may hit a potential sore spot:

Is not the SCV now a divided organization, only one half of which is interesed in mending fences (i.e., honor & heritage) while the other half primarily intent on forwarding a neo-confederate/neo-secessionist agenda?

Reference:

Neo-Confederates
SCV Once Again Elects Radical National Leaders

The Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV), a Southern heritage group that has been largely dominated by racial extremists since 2002, has again elected a commander in chief and other national leaders who are closely tied to its radical faction.
At its August convention in New Orleans, SCV delegates selected as their national commander Chris Sullivan, a longtime ally of outgoing commander Denne Sweeney and a fellow South Carolinian. Sullivan is the editor of Southern Partisan, a controversial neo-Confederate magazine that has depicted antebellum slaves as happy and slave traders as benevolent. Other Sweeney allies were elected to top posts in the SCV's three "armies," or major geographical subdivisions.

For four years, the SCV has been split by an internal civil war between moderates and radicals with hard-line racial views. The radicals have sought to turn the SCV into an explicitly political group that pushes racist neo-Confederate ideas and issues. The latest election was a clear victory for the radical faction.

"We should all [now] resolve to work to defeat the Marxist Socialists that are waging war on Southern culture," Ed Butler, a newly elected leader of the Army of Tennessee, exulted after his victory. The League of South, a neo-Confederate hate group sympathetic to the radicals, was pleased, too, enthusing on its website that "The Sons of Confederate Veterans have endorsed a radical direction."

The election also solidified the hold on the SCV of Kirk Lyons, a white supremacist North Carolina lawyer, and his Southern Legal Resource Center, which specializes in defending Confederate symbols. Two SLRC board members -- Roy Burl McCoy and Bragdon Bowling -- won posts on the SCV's executive board. In addition, a new constitution, largely written by Lyons with Sweeney's approval, was adopted. The document gives unprecedented power to the national commander.

As a result of the latest vote, discouraged moderates continued to trickle out of the SCV, as they have for several years. "Our convention committee presided over the funeral of what we all once thought of as the SCV," lamented the commander of the New Orleans SCV "camp," or chapter, that hosted the convention. "The SCV that we knew was dumped as a rotting carcass in a dung heap." Source: http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=661

Other references:

http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/news/inthenews/archives/2005/08/081805historysouthmatter.cfm

http://www.civilwarnews.com/archive/articles/scv_dispute.htm

http://www.rickross.com/reference/hate_groups/hategroups330.html

No_Know_Nothings
05-11-2007, 08:22 AM
if anything, a statue to lincoln in richmond should equal a lot of overdue monuments you yanks want. No, just the end of yankee baiting like the above quote would be nice.

bob 125th nysvi
05-11-2007, 11:30 AM
we have a couple of different issues being lumped together and debated here that are unrelated.

The flag was stolen was private property flying on private property and as such deserves ALL the protection we expect to get for our own private property. The reason it was being flown is completely irrelivant to obedience of the law.

Two it is 140 years since the war ended and it is HIGH time both sides stopped trying to refight it or have a tit-for-tat over what monument goes up where. Almost everybody who died in the war WAS American, they fought for a number of different causes that were both good and bad, and deserve to be remembered as people not symbols. It also needs to be remembered that the result of that war established the society we all have an opportunity to appreciate today.

The above being said, ANYBODY who WANTS to restart/fight the war (ex: 'why would we raise a monument to our oppressors'; 'they were murders/rapists/whatever') loses ALL taction and any moral high ground they may have had because BOTH sides can be accused of exactly the same atrocities. It all depends on your point of view.

And can we please leave god out of it. Whomever/whatever that may be is FAR too busy worrying about really important things to be even vaguely concerned about who flies a flag, who stole it, who did or did not put up a monument and why. Things like why we spend so much time killing and oppressing each other over incrediably trival things.

ThumbStall
05-11-2007, 12:32 PM
Is not the SCV now a divided organization, only one half of which is interesed in mending fences (i.e., honor & heritage) while the other half primarily intent on forwarding a neo-confederate/neo-secessionist agenda?

Yep. Problem is, you can't really tell which faction you're dealing with until the whining about "political correctness" starts... then it becomes very obvious.

AZReenactor
05-11-2007, 12:47 PM
Me, I think the flag was probably stolen by some Southern history loving kid who will probably feel great remorse someday but also have a long groundbreaking career in CS vexology. I mean hey, if we are going to jump to conclusions about the thief, why not? ;-)

Spare_Man
05-11-2007, 01:14 PM
Me, I think the flag was probably stolen by some Southern history loving kid who will probably feel great remorse someday but also have a long groundbreaking career in CS vexology. I mean hey, if we are going to jump to conclusions about the thief, why not? ;-)

Hmmmm.... maybe it was stolen by the very people who put it up in order to create an issue to provide a platform to launch into some Granny Clampett style Lost Cause apologetics? :-?

Che
05-11-2007, 01:23 PM
Hmmmm.... maybe it was stolen by the very people who put it up in order to create an issue to provide a platform to launch into some Granny Clampett style Lost Cause apologetics? :-? But even Granny had a thang for "Ulley" Grant, remember?

(Unless, of course, you're too young to remember the Golden Days of television).

"Doc" Nelson
05-11-2007, 01:30 PM
Why should we be hating in the first place? I understand there will always be different views, no matter what. I am proud of my ancestor . . WHO FOUGHT FOR THE SOUTH! But, the South lost, face it. Now, it's the 21st Century . . not the 19th. There are ways to honor those that served on both sides. But, what's going on here isn't one of them.

Why are we arguing over a flag? Is this the only thing that has ever been stolen? I would be safe to think not. Besides, how many "things" are stolen from battlefields, from year to year? I'm sure there are more than we know of.

I don't think we're in this HOBBY to start another Civil War? I think that we all, to some extent, share a common interest in this era of American history (whether it's to honor our ancestors or, just because of our interest in history in general). This is definately not bringing honor to no one (you, me, those that fought in the WBTS, our ancestors). Let cooler heads prevail. Let's slow down and think things through.

Yes, I agree, not all things are perfect. We're not living in a perfect world. There will always be differences . . no matter what. Every person is entitled to their own beliefs . . it's protected in our Constitution. But, at the same time, it doesn't give anyone else the right to slam them for their beliefs.

More than likely, someone will try to slam this message. But, I've learned to IGNORE . . well, ignorant people. I know that someone will try to comment on the things I've stated here and, that's fine. This is a public forum . . it's expected.

Che
05-11-2007, 01:45 PM
Can't we all just get along? Can't we all just work together to stop global warming at it's real source:

http://www.brutallyhonest.org/photos/pictures_worth_a_1000_wor/gorered.jpg

:p

Sorry... just thought I'd try an' lighten the mood 'round these parts.

Micah Trent
05-11-2007, 01:50 PM
...I mean post #35,
Nothing has been resloved here. The orignal poster has made his point...he is not happy.
Let's save some space, close this thread and move on to better topics.

toptimlrd
05-11-2007, 01:52 PM
Thanks Che, I needed a good laugh!

Che
05-11-2007, 01:54 PM
Thanks Che, I needed a good laugh! Always glad to be of service.

And yes, I too advocate the closing of this thread. May it sink slowly into the sunset. Unless of course, someone has some good Al Gore jokes to tell.

sbl
05-11-2007, 03:26 PM
Che,

Good photoshop! I wish he'd done that to the Dark Forces back in 2000! :D

sbl
05-11-2007, 03:35 PM
Always glad to be of service.

And yes, I too advocate the closing of this thread. May it sink slowly into the sunset. Unless of course, someone has some good Al Gore jokes to tell.

Like how he invented the Internet..wait he sorta did.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore

"During the second half of the 1980s, the joys of 'surfing the net,' began to excite the interest of people beyond the professional computer-using communities [...] However, the existing computer networks were largely in government, higher education and business. They were not a free good and were not open to hobbyists or private firms that did not have access to a host computer. To fill this gap, a number of firms such as CompuServe, Prodigy, GEnie, and America Online sprang up to provide low cost network access [...] While these networks gave access to Internet for e-mail (typically on a pay-per-message basis), they did not give the ordinary citizen access to the full range of the Internet, or to the glories of gopherspace or the World Wide Web. In a country whose Constitution enshrines freedom of information, most of its citizens were effectively locked out of the library of the future. The Internet was no longer a technical issue, but a political one. The problem of giving ordinary Americans network access had exercised Senator Al Gore since the late 1970s. In 1990 he was the author of the High Performance Computing Act, which proposed the creation of a high-speed fiber optic network that would produce enormous leverage for the information economy of the twenty-first century.[74]"


http://www.mercopress.com/vernoticia.do?id=10464&formato=HTML



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0c/AlGoreVietnam.gif