Cannon Experience

[Farmer Dean]

I just purchased a Model 1841 Full Size Six Pounder. I have never fired a cannon, nor been around one that was fired. I was looking for some feedback from one of you cannoneers about your field experience. My barrel is manufactured by Hern and is lined and has a 3 1/2" bore. I plan on firing blanks with Skirmish Powder.

I know maximum load for that barrel according to National Safety Rules is 7 oz. In the field is that the size charge that is used or can you get by with less?

If someone responds, I'll probably have a follow up question or two. Thanks, Dean.

[Forquer]

I just purchased a Model 1841 Full Size Six Pounder. I have never fired a cannon, nor been around one that was fired. I was looking for some feedback from one of you cannoneers about your field experience. My barrel is manufactured by Hern and is lined and has a 3 1/2" bore. I plan on firing blanks with Skirmish Powder.

I know maximum load for that barrel according to National Safety Rules is 7 oz. In the field is that the size charge that is used or can you get by with less?

If someone responds, I'll probably have a follow up question or two. Thanks, Dean.

First, you didn't indicate where you are from. There may be some folks in your immediate area who you can get some face to face discussion with.

Second, before firing the piece for the first time, PLEASE log time with an experienced battery to learn the ins and outs.

Also, while I'm an advocate of drilling using the period manuals, I also believe that there is much to be learned from the NCWAA course that offered in several different places at different times during the year. Get as much hands on experience as you can.

As far as powder, use cannon grade powder. This is a coarser grade than Fg-FFFg. The primary players are Goex and Elephant, although I think that Schuetzen also makes some. One of the fellows in our battery has his own 1841 with liner and he's firing 8 oz. If you're planning on 7, there won't be any appreciable difference. Who are you planning to use for friction primers?

As a novice, educate yourself as much as you can and learn each position. Unless you do, you won't be using a cannon, you'll be playing with a pipe bomb waiting to happen. The artillerists around you will appreciate it.

YOS,

[Farmer Dean]

Greg, good advice. I'm in Central California and cannons seem a little scarce. I've been reading up on all the safety drills, but I have a lot more studying before I'm ready to fire. I'm not sure what a friction primer is. My barrel just has a vent hole. I was planning to set it off with fuse. Is that what you mean?

I was going to put this piece on my front lawn (pointed directly away from my house!) Can a Six Pounder with 7 oz. create enough shockwave behind it to cause a problem with my house windows, or is my only concern what is out front? Dean.

[tompritchett]

I hope that you live in the country or else you will have some very upset neighbors the first time you do fire it. If nothing else, you may set off car alarms and possibly window intruder alarms across the street.

Before you actually start even considering firing it, I would suggest not only reading the manuals but also spend time with the few cannon units that are in your area. Reading a manual and actually performing the various crew functions are two different kettles of fish.

[Farmer Dean]

Thomas, yes I do live in the country; I'm an alfalfa farmer - nearest house is about a mile and a half away. I'd love to hook up with a cannon unit but have yet to locate anything even remotely near me.

What's your opinion: will this Six Pounder blow my windows out when used as described above? Dean.

[harley_davis]

Sir:

A word of caution, if you have not already received it. As an infantryman, I can claim no expertise in the operations of an artillery peice. Last fall I had the honor of being part of a crew firing a field peice. Even though I had witnessed artillery peices being fired, until was part of this crew, I had ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA just how involved the proper procedure is. It is only my humble opinion, but I would strongly suggest that some official training from qualified persons would be in order. Your arm, ears and the body parts of others are much to valuable to practice with.

I remain, respectfully,

[Forquer]

Greg, good advice. I'm in Central California and cannons seem a little scarce. I've been reading up on all the safety drills, but I have a lot more studying before I'm ready to fire. I'm not sure what a friction primer is. My barrel just has a vent hole. I was planning to set it off with fuse. Is that what you mean?

I was going to put this piece on my front lawn (pointed directly away from my house!) Can a Six Pounder with 7 oz. create enough shockwave behind it to cause a problem with my house windows, or is my only concern what is out front? Dean.


Thomas, yes I do live in the country; I'm an alfalfa farmer - nearest house is about a mile and a half away. I'd love to hook up with a cannon unit but have yet to locate anything even remotely near me.

What's your opinion: will this Six Pounder blow my windows out when used as described above? Dean.

Sir -

Not wanting to appear glib or judgemental, but it seems you've purchased an expensive noisemaker. That's okay, but your windows are the least of your worries.

If you haven't already, talk to you insurance agent and see what he/she recommends that you carry in terms of liability coverage.

I don't do any reenacting in California, so I have no contacts for artillery units out there who can teach you how to operate your piece safely. I don't know if you're close to Bakersfield, but you may know of Fort Tejon which, if you don't, is south of there and north of Lebec. The folks there do some Civil War living history programs and may be able to put you in contact with artillery groups that are considerably closer than Ohio. Make friends with some of these folks and work with them before trying to fire your piece.

Make sure that you have all of the necessary and correctly made implements and equipment to service your piece:

Sponge/Rammer
Worm
Trailspike
Sponge Bucket
Lanyard
Thumbstalls
Priming Wire
Vent Punch
Vent Brush
Gimlet

Also make sure that you learn the correct way to manufacture your rounds. Whomever you connect with in California can show you what you need.

Please don't use anything but friction primers as an ignition system. There are several manufacturers of those. Please don't use anything but black powder in your rounds.

As far as your windows go, I have no idea how far from your home you're planning on placing the piece. All I can say is, err on the side of caution. If you want to keep it up close to the house, move it before firing it. There is no hard and fast answer, and mileage may vary.

There is an awful lot that you're going to have to learn hands on. Distance learning and book learning can only go so far. One thing that I have compiled is a list of accidents that have occurred since 1997 from people using antique ordnance incorrectly. If you'll post your e-mail address I'll be happy to forward a copy to you.

Good luck,

[bob 125th nysvi]

have an artillery division? If it does there might be an NSSA unit closer to him than an artillery unit.

As to shock wave going backwards (away from the direction the piece is pointed), no that won't happen unless the breach explodes. but I would keep it at least 100 feet from the house. People inside watching TV or trying to taking a nap might just object to the noise.

Connect with any local reenactment and see if they have a gun coming to the event. Then register and hook up with them. They probably won't let you be part of the gun crew but you can stand back by the limber and observe and talk to them during the off time periods.

[Farmer Dean]

Greg, I appreciate all the info/help I can get my hands on. And you're exactly right, it's a noise maker to me. Throwing a projectile to the other side of my alfalfa field holds no allure to me. I've got Switlik's book, have read many articles on proper charge preparation, and have studied various Artillery Safety Rules. I understand the potential for disaster is always present. I've got a full farm shop and will be fabricating all of the tools that are needed. Please do contact me with your disaster list, that is certainly another good way to learn. starfarms@airspeedwireless.net

Bob, thanks for the feedback on shockwave. I'll will keep looking for any local reenacters. Dean.

[Forquer]

have an artillery division? If it does there might be an NSSA unit closer to him than an artillery unit.

As to shock wave going backwards (away from the direction the piece is pointed), no that won't happen unless the breach explodes. but I would keep it at least 100 feet from the house. People inside watching TV or trying to taking a nap might just object to the noise.

Connect with any local reenactment and see if they have a gun coming to the event. Then register and hook up with them. They probably won't let you be part of the gun crew but you can stand back by the limber and observe and talk to them during the off time periods.

Bob -

I know that there is some artillery shooting done in the N-SSA but have no familiarity with how they work. Rick Dennis, who posts on here, shoots with them and has some firsthand knowledge. I'll shoot him an e-mail and see if he doesn't have any direct contacts or a list of N-SSA contacts out that direction.

Added at 10:27 pm.....

Rick Dennis tossed me the following website to the California Historic Artillery Society:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/1870/

YOS,

[tompritchett]

And you're exactly right, it's a noise maker to me.

If it going to be just a noise maker and you have no intention of every using it at a reenactment, I would also recommend that wait a considerable time (10 -15 minutes) between firing consecutive rounds even after cleaning out the tube after shots. You will be much less likely to lose a hand or other part of your body that way. Semi-rapid firing of cannons leaves little room for error and when those errors do occur they can seriously main you for life.

[Farmer Dean]

Thomas, good advice. I'd be in no hurry, if I set it off more than once in a day there would be a goodly amount of time between firings. Dean

[creel]

http://www.swcp.com/~pvtpappy/PageMill_Resources/4TexBrf.html

These guys are great. I fallen in with them on US and CS infantry impressions on the east coast. They, as I understand it, also use cannons out west and have memebers from the several states there.

Larry Pope is commander and could probably put you in touch with others near CA.

your servant,

[Jeffrey Cohen]

The NCWAA artillery school is coming up soon. This is a great place to learn the ropes from the best in the biz.
Here's their site:
http://www.ncwaa.com/
Did you drill your own vent hole in the barrell?
I'd recommend having a copper vent installed.
You can email me at:
Grepse@comcast.net
I have some information I'd like to send you on cannon accidents.
One can never be too careful.

[jda3rd]

I'm a little gun-shy around the NCWAA folks. I've had 2 bad experiences with members of this group (one, wearing a colonel's uniform at Bridgeport, Alabama several years ago, was a "Safety Officer and Instructor for the NCWAA), both on safety-related issues. On both occasions, I observed their drill, and was appalled. I know these two incidents can't paint the picture of the whole organization, but I'm not comfortable with them.

Frank Brower

[Jeffrey Cohen]

Was it the NCWAA drill or a paricular unit's drill?

[Forquer]

I'm a little gun-shy around the NCWAA folks. I've had 2 bad experiences with members of this group (one, wearing a colonel's uniform at Bridgeport, Alabama several years ago, was a "Safety Officer and Instructor for the NCWAA), both on safety-related issues. On both occasions, I observed their drill, and was appalled. I know these two incidents can't paint the picture of the whole organization, but I'm not comfortable with them.

Frank Brower

Frank -

The problem is that in many cases NCWAA is the only game in town. I would have to agree with Mr. Cohen that the drill itself is not unsafe, it may very well be the people deviating from it. My problem with NCWAA is how it differs from the publshed manuals of the period.

Sadly, many organizations have to use NCWAA because their insurers or state regulatory agencies require cannoneers to be "certified" and have approved the course for that reason.

Oh, one day to see an entire gun line using HB&F!!!!!

Hey, I can dream, can't I?

[jda3rd]

Greg,
I prefer Snowden Andrews' manual of the piece but "Instructions for Field Artillery (HB&F) is the best general manual I've found. It's best to have HB&F first, and then study Andrews. The only thing I can't seem to find is any mention of unhooking the sponge bucket and putting it on the ground. But you know good and well the piece was not fired with the bucket hanging.

I agree, having read the NCWAA drill, that my main problem with them is their deviation from the period drill. Why? Because those old procedures were developed over many years of practical use of muzzle loading artillery, and every step is designed to, A: result in the death of an enemy, and B: insure the safety of the detachment. The fundamental difference between using artillery as it was intended, the "practical application", and a "hobby" interest in artillery is that safety becomes our primary goal, even before authenticity. I feel the original drills are the safest, not someones latter day interpretation and revision of them. The NCWAA drill appears safe, though, if adhered to.

My experiences were with individual detachments. The first occurred a few years ago at Bridgeport, when there was an original CS field howitzer stationed beside us. We were drilling, and a fellow was leaning on the howitzer watching us. He asked if we would show him some of the things he needed to know to work a gun, as he would be serving on the howitzer, and no one had showed up to train him. He told us he would be No. 1, so that was the post we taught him. We showed him how to use the sponge and rammer, and made sure he knew what to do in a misfire. When the rest of his detachment arrived, just before the battle, they didn't run a practice drill. There was a Colonel with the group, who told us that "That gun has a history. It took a boys arm off during the Centennial". I wish I had had the presence of mind to remind him that guns don't kill people, people kill people. That gun is an inanimate object with no will or conscience. Not long into the battle there was a misfire on the howitzer, and I was interested to observe their handling of the situation. My chum and I were Nos. 1 and 2 on our piece, and as our gunner had not given a load command we were able to watch. Their drill was pretty good, with everyone in the correct position, including the fellow we had just trained. It went well, but misfired a second time. This was when the Col. stepped in, and ordered No. 1 to "re-ram the charge"! No. 1 was about to put his rammer in the tube when I yelled "CEASE FIRE" and stopped him. Everyone froze, and the Col. turned white. He stammered a bit, and said "I'm a safety officer for the National Civil War Artillery Association. I can't believe I just did that!" He thanked us for intervening, and after the battle came over and apologized for his lapse, and to give him credit, he apologized to the young man he almost killed.

The second incident was at Perryville this past fall. A gun on the CS line was reported to have a NCWAA certified gun crew: "y'all watch these guys, they know their stuff!" I had walked the line while my section was drilling. I saw a 10pdr Parrott pointing directly up a road, perfectly flanking a line of spectators about 50 to 75 yards away. When we had a gun commander's meeting just prior to the battle, I mentioned this, and suggest that whoever it belonged to might want to oblique the gun to the left to clear the spectators line. A fellow said, "They'll move after the first shot or two!" I expressed my disbelief that he would even consider firing with anyone that close to his muzzle. He said that if he obliqued to the left to spare the audience, then every gun on the line would be exposed to his muzzle. Granted that is a valid safety concern, but better for us to be in danger than the paying public. Turns out, this was the NWCAA certified crew. As a section chief with good gunners, I had the opportunity to watch them in action.

This is what I saw: Excessively loud discharges from the muzzle of the Parrott. This indicated to me that they were using heavy loads. I shoot 9 ounces with no filler in my Parrott, and in fact we were using 9 ounce loads with no filler in a 12pdr field howitzer, with plenty of 'bang'.

Smoke escaping from the vent, repeatedly during loading.

A fairly well-schooled detachment performing their duties, but for No. 1, who sponged the tube as if it might go off at any second. After delicately sponging, he would tap the muzzle with his rammer, and when the round was placed in the tube, he stood at the muzzle, and with a firm grip on his rammer, shoved the round to the breech. Then, to make sure it was seated, he vigorously slammed it 2 or 3 times. This happened every time they loaded.

When No. 4 was given the "Fire" command, he snatched the lanyard like he was trying to start a lawn mover.

On a misfire drill, Nos. 1 and 2 performing as they should, with Nos. 3 and 4, and the Gunner, all huddled at the breech, watching.

This was the "certified" gun crew.

This is why I have little respect for the NCWAA. They have not shown themselves in a good light, as far as I'm concerned.

Frank Brower
Jeff Davis Artillery

Off to Shiloh this weekend for Mounted Artillery demonstrations for the NBP.

[Jeffrey Cohen]

In my defense, I do know that some people claim to be certified and reaaly are not.

[Ringgold]

Greg,
. . . But you know good and well the piece was not fired with the bucket hanging. . .

Frank Brower
Jeff Davis Artillery


Actually, Frank, that's exactly where it was when a piece was serviced in the field. There are images showing pieces within fortifications that have had their sponge buckets dismounted and placed upon the ground, but they aren't going to have to limber up and leave in a hurry now are they?

The reason for your doubting the "hanging bucket" is most-likely caused by your understanding of the gun drill through 21st Century eyes. (Most people today are guilty of the same problem) If you comb through Andrews' Mounted Artillery Drill, The Field Artillery Tactics, or even Roberts' Hand-book of Artillery, for the service of the United States, you will not find the cannoneers of the time damping their sponges like we do today. We are taking a more safe and non-hazardous route by utilizing a damper sponge than was used during the Rebellion, and for very good reasons that only a dolt would argue against. Also, the sponges used back then were much better than the poor excuses that I have had the misfortune of having seen in use by re-enactors today. There are very few sponge covers in service today that would pass muster when compared to Gibbon's description on page 291 of The Artillerist's Manual.

Anyhow, back to our regularly scheduled program, already in progress . . .

[jda3rd]

Mark,
You might remember us, we came up from Alabama to do mounted artillery demonstrations for the Park Service at G'burg about 4 years ago. I think y'all were there, too.

When was the last time you limbered up and moved in a hurry? If you have time to return implements, you have time to hang the bucket, too.

Have you ever lived fired a piece with a full service load, and observed the recoil? To do so with a bucket hanging will bang the bejeebers out of the bucket, the underside of the tube, and the implement hangers, very unnecessarily. I know the buckets are made out of iron, but a few times of that, and you need a new bucket. I just got back from doing mounted demonstrations with Kent Oestenstad at Shiloh this weekend, and since I had an inexperienced No. 3, we drilled until the implements were smoothly taken and returned in about 10 seconds. Kent is as protective of his equipment as anyone could be, so we always remove the bucket when live firing, to prevent unnecessary damage.
As you yourself said once upon a time "it's not in the books, but it just makes good sense".

I agree most sponges today are pretty bad. I use 100% wool carpet, not fake fleece, and not tube socks (I've actually seen that done). The sponge shouldn't be sopping wet, but it should be well dampened. Dip it, and spin it to get rid of excess water.

Frank Brower

Incidentally, we used a new set of CS issue, British import artillery harness this weekend. It looked terrific.

[Ringgold]

Yep, I suppose you could say I was "there" at Gettysburg too. I was the guy trying to feed issued rations to you fellows. ;) That weekend still remains one of my favorite Gettysburg weekends.

As to your questions . . .

~ Yes, I have had to limber and "git" in a hurry.

~ Yes, I have fired my Parrott with full service charges and live rounds up at Fort Indiantown Gap here in Penna. We even have a few videos floating around with our old former members. The recoil is quite impressive, but our little bucket didn't take or give any noticeable damage to itself nor the carriage. Over 20 rounds have passed through the bore over its service and nary a ding nor dent. As a matter of fact, when transporting the piece to where ever we may have been going, the bucket remained in its place on the carriage (along with all other implements) and no damage was observed. In the service, the dancing that the bucket would do during firing would be but a small sample of what it would be doing during movement along most roads of the time, let alone at a gallop across a rutted field or undulating scrub.

To me, it makes more sense to leave the bucket in its place due to the fact that it was not used that much during firing at that time and the amount of time necessary to dismount and remount it would be prohibitive when weighed against the need to access it easily. Well, that and the fact that every photograph of a battery "at drill" that I have seen (and that number is large) shows the bucket still dangling from the carriage. Your mileage may vary . . .

Congrats on the new equipment!

Tell Kent and the rest of the lads I said "howdy"! Y'all are a fine bunch and should be rightly proud.

[BurroughsBattery]

Frank,
My name is Steve Cameron. I worked a little with Kent and you guys at Perryville last year. We have a Bronze Light 6 Pdr pulled with white horses. I am interested in this harness you mentioned. Is this the rope traces model, or is this something else? Do you have pictures or specs of it? I am still getting more harness and horses together.

Thanks,
Steve

[jda3rd]

That weekend still remains one of my favorite Gettysburg weekends.

Mine, too! I'd love to be able to do that again for the 145th or 150th.

Obviously we are not going to see exactly eye to eye on the bucket question, so let's not belabor the point. My feelings are that some probably left it hanging, while others likely put it on the ground. I don't expect there is any way to definitively prove it was always done one way or the other, and it's sort of risky to try to deal in absolutes this far removed from the period. You say tomato, I say . . .


Steve, yes this is the pattern with hemp rope traces, and stitches/tarred cloth breast straps. There isn't a valise saddle, instead there are valise pads, and the drivers ride skeleton rigged Grimsleys. It's all done in russet leather, too, and looks great. Sorry I don't have any pics of it to post.

Kent did all the work himself, but I'm not sure where he got the specs.

Frank Brower